The question about 'soul'

[digging]

I want to point out that within Christianity there is not 100% agreement regarding the understanding of soul and spirit.

Gen 2:7 Adam became a living being or living soul, animals are also referred to as souls in
Gen 1:21,30
Gen 2:19

Thus to judge something as 'alive' which has this life because of the spirit of God. Well I don't think we should be so quick to discredit the view some might have regarding the earth as something living.

Does not Gen 1:2 say God's spirit moved over the surface of the earth?

One way we know something is alive is if it can die. Can the earth die?

Ah now we say the rocks will not die, but I think we agree the whole great collective of life on earth could die.

Is not man made from the dust of the earth?

So is not man and all other living beings the 'earth' made alive into souls?

Digging

 

[Tim TP]

How about single celled animals?

How about bacteria?

How about plants?

How about virus?

Fungi?

 

[digging]

Right they are all living things that only the spirit of God made alive.

Digging

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

digging

In those Genesis quotes I think you are confusing the "breath of life" with "soul"

They are two different things.

 

[Dodo_David]

I want to point out that within Christianity there is not 100% agreement regarding the understanding of soul and spirit.

Gen 2:7 Adam became a living being or living soul, animals are also referred to as souls in
Gen 1:21,30
Gen 2:19

Genesis 1:21 (NASB): "God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good."

Genesis 1:30 (NASB): "and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so."

Genesis 2:19 (NASB): "Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name."

* * *

Genesis 1:21 (OJB): " And Elohim created great sea creatures, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth in abundance, after their kind, and every winged fowl after its kind; and Elohim saw that it was tov."

Genesis 1:30 (OJB): "And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for food; and it was so."

Genesis 2:19 (OJB): "nd out of the adamah Hashem Elohim formed every beast of the sadeh, and every oph HaShomayim; and brought them unto the adam to see what he would name them; and whatsoever the adam named kol nefesh chayyah, that was shmo."

* * *

Genesis 1:21 (NRSV): " So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind. And God saw that it was good."

Genesis 1:30 (NRSV): "And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so."

Genesis 2:19 (NRSV): "So out of the ground the Lord God formed every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name."

* * *

Genesis 1:21 (ESV): "So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good."

Genesis 1:30 (ESV): "And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so."

Genesis 2:19 (ESV): "Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed[a] every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name."

* * *

No, animals are not referred to as souls in the above-quoted verses

 

[digging]

Now, now stay calm, if you carefully go to a Hebrew concordance and look at the Hebrew word you will see it is the same word
strongs # 5315 that is translated soul for Adam and creature for the other vs's.

The word "nehphesh"
Gen 1:20,21,24,30
Gen 2:7,19
Gen 9:10,12,15,16

15 and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh ; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 "When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth."

God has even made a covenant with the animals whom are called 'living souls/nehphesh'.

Digging

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Now, now stay calm, if you carefully go to a Hebrew concordance and look at the Hebrew word you will see it is the same word
strongs # 5315 that is translated soul for Adam and creature for the other vs's.

The word "nehphesh"
Gen 1:20,21,24,30
Gen 2:7,19
Gen 9:10,12,15,16

15 and I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh ; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh. 16 "When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth."

God has even made a covenant with the animals whom are called 'living souls/nehphesh'.

Digging

.
God is saying he will not bring another flood to drown out all the air breathing flesh on earth.

Just because humans and animals both breath air does not mean animals have souls like we do.

 

[digging]

What I'm saying is that the word the bible uses for soul in Genesis is the exact same word that was used to describe the animals so then the way Christians are using the word perhaps is where the problem is?

We don't have a soul we are a soul.

The spirit that returns to God when we die is a different word.

Digging

 

[Dodo_David]

From Nelson's Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament:

"The problem with the English term "soul" is that no actual equivalent of the term or the idea behind it is represented in the Hebrew language."

Strong's tells us what Hebrew word that the KJV translates as "soul", but Strong's does not tell us whether or not the KJV accurately translates that Hebrew word every time.

Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology states the following:

"Nepes [ נֶפֶשׁ ] in the Old Testament is never the "immortal soul" but simply the life principle or living being. Such is observable in Genesis 1:20,21 , 24 , where the qualified (living) nepes [ נֶפֶשׁ ] refers to animals and is rendered "living creatures.""

The problem with relying on an archaic English version of the Bible is the fact that the meanings of English words have changed over the centuries.

Back in 1611 CE, the English word soul was understood to refer to a physical living creature, a life form.

Since then, the English word soul has come to refer to the spiritual part of a Human, a part that does not die when the body dies.
This latter meaning is not what the Hebrew word nepes [ נֶפֶשׁ ] means.

This is why modern English versions of the Bible correctly translate nepes [ נֶפֶשׁ ] as "living creatures" instead of "souls".

It would be an error to assume that the KJV (or any English version) is the standard for comparison, because no English version of the Bible is the standard for comparison.

Being that no English version of the Bible is flawless (not even the KJV), it is not wise to base one's theology on just one particular English version of the Bible.

All English versions have weaknesses, including the KJV. This is why I quote from multiple English versions, not just one.

 

[Raining]

Animals like a cow are slaves. No human should be a slave. It seems animals like a cows and pigs gather energy from the grass all day, then store energy in the body. I hear the human brain requires much energy. Treat animals kindly.

 

[digging]

Could you show me the vs that reads 'immortal soul' since you mentioned that, as I understand the Christian promise we look forwards to receiving immortality that is the gift to become an immortal soul.

Digging

 

[Raining]

No man or woman should be a slave. I ran out of time to edit my first post on topic.

 

[Tim TP]

What about sub cellular life stuff?

The bits of a cell like say, mitochondria or chloroplasts can exist outside the cell and in the right circumstances reproduce.

DNA has the same ability. This is used in DNA testing where they take a tiny sample and get it to reproduce it's self lots to then get enough material to profile.

How small does it still get and have a soul?

 

[digging]

You keep saying to 'have a soul', I'm saying the way the bible is using this word 'soul' is used to describe everything that is alive.

If it's alive, it IS A soul. If the spirit of God made it alive it's a sacred thing. That's why people say 'life' is sacred.

Digging

 

[Dodo_David]

You keep saying to 'have a soul', I'm saying the way the bible is using this word 'soul' is used to describe everything that is alive.

If it's alive, it IS A soul. If the spirit of God made it alive it's a sacred thing. That's why people say 'life' is sacred.

Digging

Excuse me, but what you mean is that the KJV uses the word soul to describe everything that is alive.

The word soul isn't in the Hebrew OT texts because the word soul is of Germanic origin.

 

[digging]

I'm talking about the Hebrew word that the various translations beyond only the KJV put as soul 'nehphesh' strongs # 5315 I believe.

But here is the KJ Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Hebrew word here translated into the word soul is 'nehphesh' that is the same word the bible uses for the animals created by the spirit of God.

Digging

 

[Tim TP]

You keep saying to 'have a soul', I'm saying the way the bible is using this word 'soul' is used to describe everything that is alive.

If it's alive, it IS A soul. If the spirit of God made it alive it's a sacred thing. That's why people say 'life' is sacred.

Digging

So soul means living. ?

OK, so if that is the case which component of it escapes death?

What amount of memory and/or personality does?

It's a nice idea if it does but I have not seen any evidence for it so.....

 

[digging]

The way to be delivered from death is through the resurrection, that's why what Jesus did is so important. We are not born with an immortal soul, we are mortal that's why we die. However through faith we can become an immortal soul by receiving the gift of everlasting life.


Romans 6:23 NAS
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

Digging

 

[Dodo_David]

I'm talking about the Hebrew word that the various translations beyond only the KJV put as soul 'nehphesh' strongs # 5315 I believe.

But here is the KJ Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Hebrew word here translated into the word soul is 'nehphesh' that is the same word the bible uses for the animals created by the spirit of God.

Digging

The fact that the KJV translates nepes [ נֶפֶשׁ ] as soul doesn't mean that the word soul is always the proper translation of nepes [ נֶפֶשׁ ].

Again, the KJV isn't the standard for comparison. Indeed, no English version is the standard for comparison.

Plus, the word soul isn't in the Hebrew manuscripts because the word is Germanic in origin.

Merriam-Webster.com defines soul this way:

: the spiritual part of a person that is believed to give life to the body and in many religions is believed to live forever
: a person's deeply felt moral and emotional nature
: the ability of a person to feel kindness and sympathy for others, to appreciate beauty and art, etc.

That is not what nepes [ נֶפֶשׁ ] means, which is why more-modern English versions don't translate nepes [ נֶפֶשׁ ] as soul, because the latter doesn't properly convey the meaning of the former.

 

[digging]

Really? How about we look at a few more scriptures to see if we can find the meaning of the word according to the bible.

Now since we are dealing with two different languages we need to find a scripture where the NT quotes the OT.

Mark 12:30 NAS
AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'

The word 'soul' used here is #5590 "psuche" this word occurs 91 times in the NT Definition

1. breath
   the breath of life
   the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing 1a

[*]of animals 1a

[*]of men

1. life
   • that in which there is life
     a living being, a living soul

[*]the soul


This vs is quoted from more than one place in the OT

Deuteronomy 6:5 NAS
"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
Nephesh #5315 this word occurs 625 in the OT Definition

1. soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion
   that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
   • living being

This is how the bible is using the word 'soul', you are mixing a different word with the word soul, I believe you are using the word for spirit as it is used in these vs's below.

6 Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed ; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it

Psalm 146:4 NAS
His spirit departs, he returns to the earth ; In that very day his thoughts perish.


Digging