THE QUESTION NO ONE WANTS TO ASK

[Dodo_David]

Point of Information

In 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 (ESV), the Apostle Paul writes the following:

"Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel."

 

[musterion]

Here is the real question almost no one even thinks to ask.

What if...not only the miraculous, wonderous sign gifts have passed away, but also the more more mundane administrative gifts of pastor-teacher, etc?

What if...all the gifts were given by Christ for the earliest formation and cohesion of the Body of Christ while Paul was performing his function of receiving and compiling the revelations given by Christ for the Church?

What if...when Paul completed his task, say, by the time of 2 Timothy's writing, these gifts were no longer beign given afresh?

What if...this explains how it went from pastoring apparently being a divine gift to "if any man desires the office..."?

What if...this removal of all gifts, combined with (or perhaps resulting in) the doctrinal defection from Paul throughout all Asia, explains why early post-apostolic Christendom as a whole slid so fast into doctrinal apostasy from which it never recovered?

What if...Christ's ideal is for each of us to be responsible before Him to grow into spiritual manhood - into His image - on the foundation of His Word rightly divided and the power of His Spirit?

What if...it is not the responsibility of some potentially uncalled and unqualified (and sometimes quite unholy) "pastor-teacher" or "priest" or "minister" to carry us on to maturity week by week as we sit in a pew, spoon-fed anything he wants to tell us?

What if...since on our own two feet ALONE is exactly how all believers are all going to be rewarded (or lose rewards) from Him anyway...to now rely primarily if not solely upon such men is babyish laziness and, yes, sin that dishonors and disobeys Christ?

Just food for thought.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Good points Musterion

 

[FHII]

And where does it say all this in scripture? As I see it offerings in scripture were for the purpose of supporting Apostles whilst they were travelling, the poor and the needy and widows that devoted themselves to prayer so they could not earn an income.

Not ONCE does it say they are to be used to pay staff; preachers; used for buildings or pastors.

It sounds like to me that you are making scripture support your experience rather than making your experience support scripture.

Marksman,

I'm afraid your post is quite confusing to me. Which part of what I said do you believe not be be supported by scripture?

I said, "it is true that not everyone is called to preach". That to me seems like a universal truth in the Bible as not everyone in the Bible was a preacher. However, it is supported directly by scripture when Paul directly addressed it in 1 Cor 12:15-31.

I said, "but if you do find one, support him both in word and with the bucks". Do you require that a preacher should be supported with encouraging words and financially? Gal 6:6 says "let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things." That certainly covers both. 1 Thes 2:9 says that Paul didn't want to be held chargable to them, so he (and his men) preached the Gospel. Jesus himself said in Luke 10 that the workman was worthy of his hire, and he even went as far to say don't take your purse or script with you, but they that you preach to shall support your needs. Furthermore, you can see more of such in 1 Cor 9.

I also said, "He has to eat too, and it is better that he can rely on the offering to feed himself and focus on the word". Is that what you object to? You said yourself the offerings were used to support the apostles while they were travelling. I've already mentioned 1 Thes 2:9

Not once did I mention anything about about paying staff or buildings. Where'd that come from? Preachers and pastors, yes I can with the Bible prove that they should be compensated for their preaching. If they are ministers of God, then you should pay due tribute (Romans 13:6).

Now, again, I didn't mention staff or buildings.... I can talk about that as well (directly from the Bible), but since I didn't bring it up initially, I'm not going to. However, I really don't see your objection to anything I said.

 

[marksman]

Just food for thought.

I feel as though I have just had two helpings of Steak and Chips and not a glass of milk in sight.

Marksman,

I'm afraid your post is quite confusing to me. Which part of what I said do you believe not be be supported by scripture?

Nice try FHII, but I don't fall for those pity me responses. In a word, I don't believe anything you said is supported by the scriptures as you would realize if you had read my posts on the subject.

 

[FHII]

Nice try FHII, but I don't fall for those pity me responses. In a word, I don't believe anything you said is supported by the scriptures as you would realize if you had read my posts on the subject.

It wasn't a pity response..... Your response accused me of saying things I didn't say. It confuses me as to why you brought up buildings ands staff when I didn't. Furthermore, I gave you scripture on what I actually DID say.

 

[aspen]

Here is the real question almost no one even thinks to ask.

What if...not only the miraculous, wonderous sign gifts have passed away, but also the more more mundane administrative gifts of pastor-teacher, etc?

What if...all the gifts were given by Christ for the earliest formation and cohesion of the Body of Christ while Paul was performing his function of receiving and compiling the revelations given by Christ for the Church?

What if...when Paul completed his task, say, by the time of 2 Timothy's writing, these gifts were no longer beign given afresh?

What if...this explains how it went from pastoring apparently being a divine gift to "if any man desires the office..."?

What if...this removal of all gifts, combined with (or perhaps resulting in) the doctrinal defection from Paul throughout all Asia, explains why early post-apostolic Christendom as a whole slid so fast into doctrinal apostasy from which it never recovered?

What if...Christ's ideal is for each of us to be responsible before Him to grow into spiritual manhood - into His image - on the foundation of His Word rightly divided and the power of His Spirit?

What if...it is not the responsibility of some potentially uncalled and unqualified (and sometimes quite unholy) "pastor-teacher" or "priest" or "minister" to carry us on to maturity week by week as we sit in a pew, spoon-fed anything he wants to tell us?

What if...since on our own two feet ALONE is exactly how all believers are all going to be rewarded (or lose rewards) from Him anyway...to now rely primarily if not solely upon such men is babyish laziness and, yes, sin that dishonors and disobeys Christ?

Just food for thought.

How about What If nothing matters but practicing our sanctification by perfecting selfless love of God and neighbor? What If we are only capable of recognizing personal sin in our neighbors in order to help us perfect empathy? What If all the doctrinal towers of Babble that we construct to reach God and exclude our neighbors simply result in the isolation of neighbors in the maze of different religious language rather than bringing us together in love?

 

[musterion]

Casting the first stone, Aspen?

 

[aspen]

Casting the first stone, Aspen?

Not at all. I like your 'what if' questions and thought I would add a few more. I actually like the majority of your posts.

 

[marksman]

It wasn't a pity response..... Your response accused me of saying things I didn't say. It confuses me as to why you brought up buildings ands staff when I didn't. Furthermore, I gave you scripture on what I actually DID say.

I know I am going to regret this but.....I did not say it was a pity response. I said it was a "pity me" response which is quite different.

I believe that all the cults and weirdos, give scripture but that doesn't make them and you right. If fact, saying you are right because you quote scripture is quite arrogant.

I get the impression that you believe speaking in tongues is of the devil and you can quote scripture to prove it.

Without fear of contradiction, I believe there are hundreds of thousands (even millions) believe that speaking in tongues is from God and can quote scripture to prove it.

So...what makes you right and everyone else wrong?

Casting the first stone, Aspen?

Oh dear, she is so beautiful musterion.

 

[FHII]

I know I am going to regret this but.....I did not say it was a pity response. I said it was a "pity me" response which is quite different.

I believe that all the cults and weirdos, give scripture but that doesn't make them and you right. If fact, saying you are right because you quote scripture is quite arrogant.

I get the impression that you believe speaking in tongues is of the devil and you can quote scripture to prove it.

Without fear of contradiction, I believe there are hundreds of thousands (even millions) believe that speaking in tongues is from God and can quote scripture to prove it.


So...what makes you right and everyone else wrong?

Marksman..... At least I gave scripture. In your responses to me (posts #19, 25, 30) did you give any scripture? Did you discuss the scripture I gave? No. If you did or actually refuted the scripture I gave and told why it didn't support what I said, then you might have something to go on.

speaking in tongues???? Gimmie a break! Let's not get sidetracked.... But what makes me right and "everyone else" wrong (in this case, "everyone else" is just you!) is that I did give scripture and you just gave your opinion. Until you give scripture or tell me why the scripture I gave does not support my point, one of us has authoritive support, and it isn't you.

 

[musterion]

Not at all. I like your 'what if' questions and thought I would add a few more. I actually like the majority of your posts.

I apologize for misreading you, then...I couldn't quite tell where you were going with that.

Oh dear, she is so beautiful musterion.

Thank you again. Trust me, she takes after my spouse.

 

[veteran]

The events happenning with the Church today were prophesied in the OT prophets.

Amos 8:9-13
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
(KJV)

That could only happen by the crept in unawares taking over what many Church congregations are allowed to preach and teach from God's Word. In the particular Church organizational system I was raised in, they refused to cover much Bible prophecy including the Book of Revelation. The pastor taught from Church Quarterly publications sent him from the main organizational headquarters instead of covering God's Word line upon line.


For many, this is still the way it is:
John 6:22-27
22 The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with His disciples into the boat, but that His disciples were gone away alone;
23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks
24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither His disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25 And when they had found Him on the other side of the sea, they said unto Him, "Rabbi, when camest thou hither?"
26 Jesus answered them and said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek Me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for Him hath God the Father sealed.
(KJV)

Those followed Him because He fed their bellies literally with the miracle of the five loaves and two fishes, and they were prepared to make Him king over them. Same problem many brethren have today, wrongly thinking Christ's Salvation is supposed to support their material gains and physical living in this world, misunderstanding the meaning of the Bread from Heaven that He offers.

 

[marksman]

Until you give scripture or tell me why the scripture I gave does not support my point, one of us has authoritive support, and it isn't you.

Funny you should say that. Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church quotes a lot of scriptures to support his hateful campaigns and the homosexuals campaign to normalise homosexuality has been littered with scripture. Are they authoritative because they do that?

 

[aspen]

Crazy thing about Phelps is that he started out as a civil rights lawyer and still believes in civil rights for all people of different races - and yet he is a complete whackjob when it comes to homosexuals and the military,???

just another example of gray

 

[FHII]

Funny you should say that. Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church quotes a lot of scriptures to support his hateful campaigns and the homosexuals campaign to normalise homosexuality has been littered with scripture. Are they authoritative because they do that?

That's an utterly rediculous response.... Somebody gives you scripture for what they believe and you are going to discard it because Fred Phelps uses scripture too? That's rediculous..... I will no longer waste my time with you.

 

[marksman]

That's an utterly rediculous response.... Somebody gives you scripture for what they believe and you are going to discard it because Fred Phelps uses scripture too? That's rediculous..... I will no longer waste my time with you.

The only reason it is an utterly ridiculous response to you is the fact that it is true and you have no credible response to refute the analogy.

 

[FHII]

The only reason it is an utterly ridiculous response to you is the fact that it is true and you have no credible response to refute the analogy.

Markedman, you are in bad need of a grammar councilor cause this really makes no sense!

I do have a response, but I am not going to share it with you and continue this rediculous arguement. The fact remains that I gave you scripture for everything I said. If I misquoted or am quoting out of context, by all means correct me! I don't think you can, because if you could you would have done it already.

It's funny.... You have stated that my when I give scripture it's invalid cause Fred Phelps quotes scripture too. Jesus quoted scripture as well.... And to Satan no less.... Satan backed off and you refuse to acknowledge it? I mean, Satan isn't even that stupid!

Hey, Marked Man.... Bye, bye.....

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

One question I would love to ask God, is how many in ministry are actually called to be there by Him in the first place, I would not be suprised if He said less tha 10%.

in all his love

Joseph Smith once asked God a question much like that right before writing a fictitious book and starting a cult. It pains people to understand that God's will is for us to be subject to fallible human leadership. Some go their entire lives trying to avoid this fact and chafe under human leadership in feigned assent to God. The attempt to drive a wedge between God and the people God places in leadership is nothing more than thinly veiled rebellion. If any lesson can be taken from the leadership of Moses it's this: God doesn't take kindly to people rejecting those he anoints to lead them. We should count ourselves lucky that the ground doesn't open up and swallow some of us!

 

[Prentis]

Joseph Smith once asked God a question much like that right before writing a fictitious book and starting a cult. It pains people to understand that God's will is for us to be subject to fallible human leadership. Some go their entire lives trying to avoid this fact and chafe under human leadership in feigned assent to God. The attempt to drive a wedge between God and the people God places in leadership is nothing more than thinly veiled rebellion. If any lesson can be taken from the leadership of Moses it's this: God doesn't take kindly to people rejecting those he anoints to lead them. We should count ourselves lucky that the ground doesn't open up and swallow some of us!

A distinction must carefully be made between the man who is anointed of God and the man who considers himself anointed of God.

The Pharisees also considered themselves as God's anointed, and the very upholders of the what Moses had delivered to Israel, the law and commandments. But they were not true. So today everyone and their brother claims to have the truth, 'and so submit to me'. We are to submit ourselves to the powers that God has set up, kings, governments, and while we do not unnecessarily rebel against the current religious establishments, we do not abide by their rules just to please men.

Those who considered themselves men of God wanted to kill Jesus many times for speaking the truth, healing on the sabbath, and exposing their spiritual condition. The prophets were killed by God's people, the Israelites. So today the sons of God are persecuted often by the great religious institutions.

We submit to true prophets, who receive their words from God, yes, but not to tyrants who use religion as a means of establishing their kingdom, and do not know the ways of God.