THE QUESTION NO ONE WANTS TO ASK

[Bishop]

[SIZE=11.5pt]For the last 10 years, I have been studying church history. Apart from my study of the New Testament, I must have read at least 60 books on the subject. My latest journey is the 8 volume “History of the Christian Church” by Philip Schaff.

I am rather pleased with this purchase as it normally sells for $200 and I paid $50. A big thanks to ChristianBook in the USA.

One of my purchases was tapes called “Pastors in Crisis” which talks about all the sorts of problems that pastors in the USA experience. There were cases cited of pastors who gave up because of the success syndrome. They were employed to get results and when they didn’t they were sacked or resigned.

This does not surprise me as I went though a website that advertised Christian jobs. There were 263 adverts for pastors. Apart from three, the qualifications required were experience, a degree and the ability to make things happen. Only three mentioned they wanted someone who had a serious prayer life.

In one book, I read that on average, 1,600 USA pastors resign or are sacked each month. In my country there are over 10,000 ex pastors who gave up because of burnout or unrealistic expectations.

One other thing the tapes mentioned was the fact that these situations were sad because these men were called by God to do a special ministry.

I am not convinced however as I cannot see God approving of something contrary to his word. My own feeling is and it has been confirmed by other writers that probably at least 50% of the pastors out there should never be in ministry.

The reason they are, is that they are fuelled by rejection so they need to be needed which means their so called “calling” is nothing more than to cover up a dysfunction without having to face it.

If you are in ministry because of rejection, everything is filtered through it so you are unable to see reality. A protective mechanism builds a wall to stop you being hurt so you cannot see the wood for the trees as they say.

Apart from the forgoing, I cannot find anywhere in the New Testament Church (NTC) where they hired a pastor from outside the church to run it. Leadership in the NTC was firstly apostles and prophets and later resident Elders who were chosen from within the fellowship. Not once does it say a pastor is in charge.

What this tells me is that when you ignore the obvious and impose a man made system on a spiritually devised and God given structure, you are asking for trouble because you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

I believe the reasons I have stated are the reasons why the current church leadership model is a killing ground for professional pastors. It doesn’t work because it was never intended to.

The question no one wants to ask is “why do we so blindly follow man’s design and ignore the scripture and what God intended for leadership of the church.”

There can only be one answer to this and that is that man has too much invested in their way of doing things and to do otherwise would mean a loss of authority, power and prestige because doing it God’s way would mean that he gets all the glory, not man.

Man’s sinful nature does not want that to happen.[/SIZE]

Greeting, I am new to this site and thought I should address the OP before all the post that follow. Also, I do not have the time to invest to be here daily but I will do my best to respond as i am able should anyone wish to discuss this topic or any other with me.

I am going to ignore the first two items and its just information given and in my opinion doesn't require a response. The third I will address. It speaks of "Succees Syndrome" which I admit I have never heard of personally. To the reason of failure to meet certain goals or results is too limited in and of itself. Why didn't they make these goals? First and foremost is because they were not the former pastor. A church gets used to having a pastor and when they leave, regardless of how, the new is compared to the old and as the bible says, no one wants the new for the old is better. each pastor has a calling on top of the calling to serve in full time ministry. Mine for example is men's ministry and apologetics. These are calling above and beyond "normal" pastoral roles. Now the poor fellow that follows me when I leave may not have the same secondary calling and as such those ministries I used to handle will suffer. Also there is stylistic differences. I preach with a cadence, if the man to follow me speaks in a monotone he will have a hard time. It does not mean he is not a capable shepherd its just his style is different and the hearers don't like change.

For the record most leave to plain old fashion burn out. That is they try to do what Moses did before his father in law pointed out that the way he was judging was a fools errand. NO human pastor, no matter how talented, patient, well trained can do everything. Oh for a short time (in the grand scheme of things) they can but fatigue will overtake them and many walk away feeling like failures when they aren't. What they are is bone tired and over worked because they think its expected or required of them. In the church where I pastor there is me as Bishop. 24 Pastors and 48 Deacons. We have this structure because I know I can't do it all nor can anyone else.


The forth line talk about church requirements for a pastor. The items mentioned is just some basics. If you don't believe me go apply and interview you will find out there is a lot more to it. Experienced pastors know this. New ones, should they survive their first year will learn this. Most churches during the interview begin with the pastoral qualifications found in Timothy. Also, most churches also send out a questionaire to be filled out prior to setting the interview appointment. This line is comparative with "judging a book by its cover". Until you have tried to apply for a pastoral position or talked to a pastor that was hired instead of planted, you have just read the cover, not the book.

Line seven I would qualify with the word Senior. Most, about 95% should not be a senior pastor or sole pastor of a church. Its something you really need to grow into not apply for. Timothy studied and work with Paul many years before he was sent to Bishop the Church at Ephesus. Timothy both learned what he needed to know to preacher effectively but also to lead effectively. Something only experience can prepare you for.

Lines eight and nine I need to ask: What do you mean by that? Its too vague to give a detail response.

Line ten on the other hand I would like to point out that Timothy was from Derby not Ephesus. Timothy was never ordained as a bishop in Derby or anywhere else until He was sent to Ephesus by Paul. You might say he was sent and not hired. That would be a grasping at straws as I brought up ordination already. The Elders at Ephesus had to ordain Timothy for him to begin that ministry. This was a hiring by the elders with the confidence that Timothy could do the job.

Line eleven is a little bit if a strawman because Jesus NEVER said how to "do" church. There are some basics that all churches should have in common but no complete blueprint for the total package. Paul, Peter, John all have very different styles and face very different city cultures that needed to be handled in a case by case bases. God gives us a great deal of latitude in this area. Do you really think the Church at Jerusalem which was a mega church in its day ran anything like the Church in Ephesus? You can't use a rubber stamp to plant a church or your failure rate will be astronomical.

Line twelve asks the first good question in my opinion. “why do we so blindly follow man’s design and ignore the scripture and what God intended for leadership of the church.” First its not ignored. Most of church operations is "behind the scenes". That is, its not part of corporate worship or small groups. As to why some of the things not taught anywhere in scripture are done, many are traditions that got started for good reason but the culture has outgrown the need for. Many are do to disagreement in the church leading to splits and to people leaving the church as a whole because they were never saved in the first place and don't want a pastor telling them how to live they lives. They want a spiritual gas station that is run by someone that pumps for us. They want a feel good message not a go out and do good conviction.

The last two lines are pure opinion. In some cases the opinion may be right in part or as a total. Some, not all, not most and not even many.

The final analysis requires me to ask a question of the total post: Is that true? Not, its true for me, which is relativism. But absolute truth? Let me give you an example of absolute truth: At 4:10 am EST I was writing this reply. No matter where you are, what you are doing, what you believe or don't believe can or will alter that truth statement on single bit, not make it other than truth.

As I noted the time I was posting I ask you to over look spelling, capitalization or grammer issues and take it at face value. In other words address what is said and not nitpic the trivial.

In Christ,
Bishop

PS if I got out of sync as to what line I was talking about simply rereading the OP should allow the reader to realign the line of the OP to the response, as I noted it is very late.

 

[marksman]

. Most churches during the interview begin with the pastoral qualifications found in Timothy. .

There are no pastoral qualifications in Timothy.

 

[101G]

Apart from the forgoing, I cannot find anywhere in the New Testament Church (NTC) where they hired a pastor from outside the church to run it. Leadership in the NTC was firstly apostles and prophets and later resident Elders who were chosen from within the fellowship. Not once does it say a pastor is in charge.

GINOLJC, @marksman. half of this is correct. 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues". understand this is a Spiritual appointment. now with your natural eyes you don't see the word "Pastor" right. well the pastor is there in the scripture. understand what a pastor is first. Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding". a pastor, let me qualify this, a BIBLICAL PASTOR, is to feed knowledge and understanding. not to be in charge. see, the Pastor is the very first gift on the list in chapter 12 verse 8, 1 Corinthians 12:8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit". a word of Wisdom is "Understanding". now one have KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING which is the first gift on the list, the pastoral gifts. now the reason why you didn't see the actual word Pastor in chapter 12 verse 28 is because it is spiritually discerned. here it is. you know that Paul was an apostle, now the question, was he a pastor? yes. scripture, next chapter, 1 Corinthians 13:1 & 2 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. here the apostle clearly tells us that he is a pastor, and "understand" all mysteries, and all "knowledge" He have "KNOWLEDGE" and "UNDERSTANDING", and Jeremiah 3:15 says this is what a Pastor feed with. but notice in 1 Corinthians 13:2 Paul is also a prophet, and a teacher, which God set in his church according to 1 Corinthians 12:28. Paul as a prophet, 1 Corinthians 13:2a "And though I have the gift of prophecy". but what about the teacher in him, 1 Corinthians 4:17 "For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church".

there you have the Pastor, who is the the Spirit. for pastoring is a gift, and it is the Spirit/Yeshua Jesus that gives that gifts. so 1 Corinthians 12:28 is correct, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues". here are your pastors. they are better called "Bishops" also in the new testament.

Hope this helped.

 

[Wormwood]

There are no pastoral qualifications in Timothy.

Well I guess that depends on your ecclesiology. Personally, I think the term "pastor" is appropriate for the qualifications for "overseers" listed in 1 Tim. 3. The term "pastor" indicates one who is a shepherd or provides spiritual oversight for the flock of God. In my view, there are elders/overseers and deacons in the biblical church leadership mode. The preacher/pastor is simply a preaching elder/overseer. I'm not sure if the terminology is what you are objecting to in your claim there are no "pastoral qualifications" in Timothy, but it seems to me there are...if we consider overseers to be pastors. I believe that is the case.

 

[Helen]

Firstly I admit that I have not read all the pages go this thread.

The trouble I see for pastors is that they foolishly believe that they are the whole ball of wax!!
Top dog and most important. A pastor cannot lead if no one is following.
Thefore God's ' most important' is His Body!! Christ is the Head, and He speaks to His Body/Potential Bride via a vessel being the pastor.
Yet in this day and age it has become so slick with gimmicks , etc..the body has a hard time to hear a pure word through these vessels.
My other great beef with pastors is...they are NOT the whole ministry...even though they think that.....they are still just a part of the body.
God speaks "through the sound of many waters .."
The churches that thrive and are alive , are the ones that are free from any HQ governing, and having a biblical plural ministry , where everyone of the ministers respects the calling and gifting of the others.
Re OP, that way there is no burn-out. The pastors in this 'hollywood' age , burn out because they first 'took full control' ...and did not follow the Bible pattern of " every joint supplying" ..
The lust for power is the killer of any local church body. Either the Holy Spirit is " in charge" or He is not. And in the majority of Churches He is NOT!!!

 

[101G]

Well I guess that depends on your ecclesiology. Personally, I think the term "pastor" is appropriate for the qualifications for "overseers" listed in 1 Tim. 3. The term "pastor" indicates one who is a shepherd or provides spiritual oversight for the flock of God. In my view, there are elders/overseers and deacons in the biblical church leadership mode. The preacher/pastor is simply a preaching elder/overseer. I'm not sure if the terminology is what you are objecting to in your claim there are no "pastoral qualifications" in Timothy, but it seems to me there are...if we consider overseers to be pastors. I believe that is the case.

well said, another word for "Overseer", and "Elder" is Pastor/Shepherd for they do the same job. Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood". and these overseer was elders, see Acts 20:17. pastors are to FEED the flock, scripture, Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding". so the Pastor is the overseer, the elder, the apostle, the prophet, or the Teacher which is a bishop, G1985 ἐπίσκοπος episkopos (e-piy'-sko-pos) n.
1. an overseer. for there is only one pastor in the church of God the Lord Jesus, which is a Spiritual Gift, (see 1 Corinthians 12:8).

 

[Wormwood]

Firstly I admit that I have not read all the pages go this thread.

The trouble I see for pastors is that they foolishly believe that they are the whole ball of wax!!
Top dog and most important. A pastor cannot lead if no one is following.
Thefore God's ' most important' is His Body!! Christ is the Head, and He speaks to His Body/Potential Bride via a vessel being the pastor.
Yet in this day and age it has become so slick with gimmicks , etc..the body has a hard time to hear a pure word through these vessels.
My other great beef with pastors is...they are NOT the whole ministry...even though they think that.....they are still just a part of the body.
God speaks "through the sound of many waters .."
The churches that thrive and are alive , are the ones that are free from any HQ governing, and having a biblical plural ministry , where everyone of the ministers respects the calling and gifting of the others.
Re OP, that way there is no burn-out. The pastors in this 'hollywood' age , burn out because they first 'took full control' ...and did not follow the Bible pattern of " every joint supplying" ..
The lust for power is the killer of any local church body. Either the Holy Spirit is " in charge" or He is not. And in the majority of Churches He is NOT!!!

I don't think I agree with much you wrote here. First, I don't know what churches you have attended, but my experience is not that pastors think they are better than others. Generally, they have a lot of responsibility and not a lot of authority. Most THINK the pastor has all the authority, but this is not really the case. Often there are boards or older members that call most of the shots...even if the set up of the church allows for the pastor to have most of the authority. This is seldom how it actually plays out.

Also, most churches I have been in expect the pastor/staff to do EVERYTHING. Most churches I know struggle intensely with volunteers. People want programs, kids activities, classes, divorce care, and everything else you can imagine. Yet very view are willing to help with teaching, child care, or other necessary volunteer work to feed, organize, or lead such events. This leaves the pastor and staff with most of the work to pull these things off. My experience is that everyone wants a specific ministry, but very few are willing to help. After all, "that's what the pastor/staff are paid for!"

Finally, most pastors I know who have burnt out (and I suffered from this at one point) is because people who are supposed to be supportive, godly Christians can be some of the most demanding, hurtful and mean-spirited people on the planet. Everyone has a demands and expectations for everything church related. They have demands for preaching, sermon length, music styles, classes, carpet color, pastors clothing, office hours, # of in home visits, hospital visits, etc. Everyone wants their way and there is no way to keep everyone happy. So for every 10 people you please, there are a handful who dislike you and conspire to have you fired. Heaven forbid if you miss a visit while someone is hospitalized. Most pastors earn poverty wages and work 50+ hours a week. They work all week to put together services and teaching only to have people fill out prayer request cards with nasty comments about music volume, sermon length or their displeasure about the pastor's clothing, length of hair or whatever else.

Believe me, most pastors would LOVE to have more people involved in church. They would LOVE more teachers, more children's workers, more cooks, building caretakers, and leaders. Yet, the fact is that in most churches 10% of the people do 90% of the work...and the pastor is usually responsible for 75% of it. And no matter how hard he works, many will bicker, complain and gossip about how ungodly, lazy, arrogant, gimmicky, controlling, etc. that the pastor is.

Are their some bad pastors out there? Of course. But how many people show up to your work and criticize your every decision, project, car, clothing choice or contribution....let alone those who are supposed to be on your side! I think if we prayed for our pastors as much as we critique and criticize them, the church would be in a much better place. Most pastors enter church work with great zeal and love for Jesus and on average, leave ministry within 3 years...never to return again. Something is wrong with that picture..and I don't think its the pastors.

 

[marksman]

GINOLJC, @marksman.there you have the Pastor, who is the the Spirit. for pastoring is a gift, and it is the Spirit/Yeshua Jesus that gives that gifts. so 1 Corinthians 12:28 is correct, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues". here are your pastors. they are better called "Bishops" also in the new testament.

Hope this helped.

No, it didn't, as you have just about, turned every ministry, ministry gift and appointment into the role of pastor.

 

[mjrhealth]

Most pastors enter church work with great zeal and love for Jesus and on average, leave ministry within 3 years...never to return again. Something is wrong with that picture..and I don't think its the pastors.

A pastor is supposed to be "called" it was never supposed to be a Job, it was never supposed to be " go to seminary school. get your diploma", no it was always supposed to be a calling from God. If He hasnt called you than you shouldnt go. That is why it says

Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Far to many people running around doing things "for God" and expecting Him to catch up. Never supposed to be the way. Of course they get burned out, God doesnt have to be a part of something He never called someone to do.

Jesus had one purposee

Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And that is what He did.

 

[marksman]

Well I guess that depends on your ecclesiology. Personally, I think the term "pastor" is appropriate for the qualifications for "overseers" listed in 1 Tim. 3. The term "pastor" indicates one who is a shepherd or provides spiritual oversight for the flock of God. In my view, there are elders/overseers and deacons in the biblical church leadership mode. The preacher/pastor is simply a preaching elder/overseer. I'm not sure if the terminology is what you are objecting to in your claim there are no "pastoral qualifications" in Timothy, but it seems to me there are...if we consider overseers to be pastors. I believe that is the case.

Except for one thing. Elders are not necessarily shepherds. Some are and some aren't as the passage says to give double honour (not double pay) to those who labour in the word and doctrine which means some of them do not labour in the word and doctrine.

If they labour in the word and doctrine they aren't going to have much time to shepherd the sheep.

Apart from the fact that the Greek word for pastor which is "poimen" is not in the passage.

And the word pastor does not indicate spiritual oversight. In Ephesians 4:11 the Greek word means shepherd and nothing else, so spiritual oversight does not come into it.

The word Elder, sometimes translated overseer or bishop, means superintendent or the man in charge.

In 1 Timothy 4:6 it talks about being a good minister. No doubt that has been translated as a good reverend, father, pastor, rector, etc. but it does not mean that. Being a good minister means to run errands, a waiter, at tables, technically a deacon or a deaconess.

And if it means pastor as you contend, there is nothing there that says to bring him in from outside of the church.

So all in all, defending it as meaning a pastor is on very thin ground.

 

[marksman]

A pastor is supposed to be "called" it was never supposed to be a Job, it was never supposed to be " go to seminary school. get your diploma", no it was always supposed to be a calling from God. If He hasnt called you than you shouldnt go. That is why it says

Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Far to many people running around doing things "for God" and expecting Him to catch up. Never supposed to be the way. Of course they get burned out, God doesnt have to be a part of something He never called someone to do.

Jesus had one purposee

Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And that is what He did.

If a pastor is supposed to be called, why do you think it is that God does not call apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers today? In Ephesians 4:11 it says that all five are needed for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry and for the edifying of the body of Christ:

If that is what God said through his word, then to try and make it happen without four of them is totally stupid.

 

[marksman]

Thefore God's ' most important' is His Body!! Christ is the Head, and He speaks to His Body/Potential Bride via a vessel being the pastor.

Can you show me in scripture where God says he speaks to us through the pastor?

 

[mjrhealth]

In Ephesians 4:11 it says that all five are needed for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry and for the edifying of the body of Christ:

That was before

Joh_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

and

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

but

Joh_14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

because

Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

and

Joh_4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

thats why

Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

God has so many children just few sons.

And its also why Jesus spoke of

Luk_5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk_5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

Because man has taken the old Jewish synagouge and tred to add spirituality "church" and broke it all. You cant have teh flesh and teh spirit, its one or teh other, its also why we have so many religious people

Luk_5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

who prefer "church" to follwing after Jesus, being Led by teh spirit, because men mock you and call you fools. Rather be a fool for God than praised by men.

 

[101G]

No, it didn't, as you have just about, turned every ministry, ministry gift and appointment into the role of pastor.

GINOLJC, if it didn't help, sorry for you. I suggest you read the bible for yourself and find out, if what was posted, is true. and if your local church is setup a certain way and you agree to its terms them go for it. tradition of men might be what you accept.

but I do know this, that there is only one Pastor in the Lord Jesus the Christ Church, and he speak through many whom he has given this Gift (1 Corinthians 12:8).

now as far as I'm making every ministry into the role of Pastor, I have done nothing. maybe you need to re-read what I have said what a pastor do, not what traditions of men have made it, but what God said about it.

but I hope you truly find out what leadership is all about in the Church of the Lord Jesus, and it's not about rank or position.

 

[Wormwood]

A pastor is supposed to be "called" it was never supposed to be a Job, it was never supposed to be " go to seminary school. get your diploma", no it was always supposed to be a calling from God. If He hasnt called you than you shouldnt go. That is why it says

Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Far to many people running around doing things "for God" and expecting Him to catch up. Never supposed to be the way. Of course they get burned out, God doesnt have to be a part of something He never called someone to do.

Jesus had one purposee

Mat_15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And that is what He did.

True, but most pastors feel "called" to build the Church, evangelize the lost, educate, and encourage the people of God. However, they receive nothing but daggers in the back from much of the congregation and are refused permission to evangelize, educate and build the Church in a meaningful way. They are told to not change anything and sit up there each week and do a dog & pony show while the congregation judges how much they "like" the service. Pastors often leave, not because they are abandoning their call, but because they feel the local church prevents them from fulfilling their call.

Moreover, I would encourage you not to judge people, especially when you haven't stood in their shoes. My guess is you have no idea what it is like to spend up to a decade in preparation for ministry only to have the people who are supposed to be on your team do nothing but criticize, complain and gossip about you and your family...and run off people you are reaching and bringing into the church because they are trying to change "their church." To say pastors leave the Church because they are too egotistical and get burnt out because they want it all about them (as the OP stated) or to say its because they aren't "called" by God and are doing it in their own strength is simply taking shots at the dark toward people you don't know. Maybe its true of a few, but not most of the ones I have known through the years.

I have been a pastor at numerous churches, and some are really good with a heart for the Lord and some are very mean-spirited, selfish and horrible to their pastors. I knew one pastor who had elders show up to his house and berate him because he bought new furniture and they felt it was excessive and would look bad on the church. This pastor was being paid $18,000 a year and living in a parsonage and only bought furniture that they had saved for a year to get because their own furniture was literally falling apart.

Imagine you had 100-500 people following you around at your job, constantly critiquing your spiritual life based on your car, your house, your furniture, your clothes, if your kids ever misbehaved, or if your spouse didn't play the piano...and regularly wrote notes to you and people online in blogs and Facebook about everything they felt was wrong with the work you did that week....and maybe you'll have a small taste of what many pastors experience each week.

Even God's servants get tired, frustrated, overwhelmed and angry. Pastors are people too. Don't let titles get in the way of treating them the way we would want others to treat us.

 

[Wormwood]

Except for one thing. Elders are not necessarily shepherds. Some are and some aren't as the passage says to give double honour (not double pay) to those who labour in the word and doctrine which means some of them do not labour in the word and doctrine.

If they labour in the word and doctrine they aren't going to have much time to shepherd the sheep.

Apart from the fact that the Greek word for pastor which is "poimen" is not in the passage.

And the word pastor does not indicate spiritual oversight. In Ephesians 4:11 the Greek word means shepherd and nothing else, so spiritual oversight does not come into it.

The word Elder, sometimes translated overseer or bishop, means superintendent or the man in charge.

In 1 Timothy 4:6 it talks about being a good minister. No doubt that has been translated as a good reverend, father, pastor, rector, etc. but it does not mean that. Being a good minister means to run errands, a waiter, at tables, technically a deacon or a deaconess.

And if it means pastor as you contend, there is nothing there that says to bring him in from outside of the church.

So all in all, defending it as meaning a pastor is on very thin ground.

1. I never said anything about pay. Most elders (at least in my tradition) are not paid. They are laymen.

2. In my opinion, elder and shepherd are the same thing. These words are used interchangeably in the NT and come from similar words referring to the same office. In my opinion, the words began to take on different meaning as the Church began to develop hierarchies many years after the NT was written. Not all agree with me on this, but I see no example of hierarchies in the NT. There seem to be elders/shepherds/pastors, and deacons/ministers/servants. The elders provided the spiritual guidance of the local congregation and the deacons took care of the day to day duties such as caring for widows. This is also how first century synagogues were structured. There were a group of men who were the elders/shepherds and some who served. The rest belonged to the assembly who came to worship God and receive teaching and instruction from the rabbis and leaders.

3. I think you are wrong in your assessment of pastor/elder. One prominent Christian author writes:

"In the New Testament the descriptive word “pastor” (which is identical to our word “shepherd”), in both its noun and verb forms, when used of church leaders, is used only of the elders of the church. The verb (poimainō) is also used once for the apostle Peter (John 21:16) and several times for Jesus (Matt. 2:6; four times in Revelation). It is used for elders in Acts 20:28 and 1 Peter 5:2. The noun (poimēn) is used mostly for Jesus (John 10:11ff.; Heb. 13:20; 1 Peter 2:25), and only once for a church leader: Ephesians 4:11.In Ephesians 4:11 this task is distinguished from that of the apostles, prophets, and evangelists; and it is linked to the task of teaching. In other places in the NT the elders are the leaders who are responsible for teaching (1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:9; implied in Acts 20:28ff.)."

Yes, there is nothing that says "bring him in from outside the church." However, clearly there were elders/pastors that did come in from outside the Church. Paul sent Timothy and Titus to churches to provide leadership in locations they were not locally residing. Paul also sent Epaphroditus to the church in Philippi as a worker, minister, and messenger (see Phil. 2:19-30). Finally, we need to be careful creating doctrines from silence. Nothing says to play instruments in church, use projectors, pews, chairs or Bibles either. Yet we do these things, and there is no reason not to. Simply because the Bible doesn't explicitly tell us to do something does not mean that we are prohibited from doing it. Yet, as I mentioned, there do seem to be precedents of leaders going to different locations to provide assistance to the local leaders. Those leaders who did so and gave their full time to building and teaching in the church were often given financial support....although Paul frequently did not demand this "right." However, he did accept those gifts from time to time when he felt it would not hinder the Gospel.

 

[BreadOfLife]

STILL WAITING FOR AN ANSWER TO ALL MY QUESTIONS.

Regarding WHY we confess our sins to the Church - because it is prescribed by Scripture.

Three times in the Gospels (Matt. 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23), we read where Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins or to hold them bound. This is not a something that Jesus took lightly. In John 20:21-23, Jesus (who is God) breathes on the Apostles as he is giving them this power:
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:

The first is when he breathed life into Adam.
The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins.

The practice of confessing your sins to the Church is an ancient one that goes all the way back to the Apostles themselves. We see this in the 1st century document, the Didache (The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles), where it emphatically states the necessity of confessing our sins to the Church:
“Confess your sins in Church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . , On the Lord's Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure” (Didache 4:14,14:1 [A.D.70]).

St. Paul makes no small case for this ministry of reconciliation in 2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states:
"Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for you in the PRESENCE of Christ.”

In the Greek, the word “presence” used here is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.


To answer your other questions:
In that case why does your catholic church insist on their priests being addressed as father?

Because this is ALSO prescribed in Scripture.
In Matt. 2:39, it would seem that Jesus prohibits calling ANY man "Father" - but that is NOT what He meant.

What many anti-Catholics don’t mention is that Jesus is using hyperbole (exaggeration) to make a point and does so many times in Scripture. In the verse that precedes this (Matt: 23:8), Jesus tells us not to call people “Teachers”. Is Jesus telling us that we can’t call certain people "fathers" or “teachers” when they may actually be fathers or teachers? Absolutely NOT. He is telling us that no man is to be considered father above our Father in heaven and no person is to be considered teacher above our Teacher in heaven.

Jesus was speaking about the Scribes and Pharisees who exalted themselves before all:
“They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation 'Rabbi” (Matt 23:6-7).

Consider the following passages:
- Jesus said, “Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).
- St. Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," (Acts 7:2).
- St. Paul speaks of "our father Isaac” (Romans 9:10).
- "For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).
- We see in Matt. 19:5, Mark 10:7 where Jesus quotes Gen. 2:24, which states: “That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.”
- In Eph. 5:31, Paul quotes the very same verse. The Greek same word, πατερ (pat-ayr’), is used in all 3 verses.
- God commands us to “Honor your father and Mother” (Exod. 20:12).
- "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7).
- "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11).
- "God has appointed in the church first Apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28).


If that is the case why is the pope called the vicar of Christ and is his representative on earth?
"Vicar" simply means "chief agent". Jesus appointed Peter as earthly leader of His Church (Matt. 16:8-19) and every Pope sine Peter has carried on this succession of leadership.

 

[ScottA]

[SIZE=11.5pt]For the last 10 years, I have been studying church history. Apart from my study of the New Testament, I must have read at least 60 books on the subject. My latest journey is the 8 volume “History of the Christian Church” by Philip Schaff.

I am rather pleased with this purchase as it normally sells for $200 and I paid $50. A big thanks to ChristianBook in the USA.

One of my purchases was tapes called “Pastors in Crisis” which talks about all the sorts of problems that pastors in the USA experience. There were cases cited of pastors who gave up because of the success syndrome. They were employed to get results and when they didn’t they were sacked or resigned.

This does not surprise me as I went though a website that advertised Christian jobs. There were 263 adverts for pastors. Apart from three, the qualifications required were experience, a degree and the ability to make things happen. Only three mentioned they wanted someone who had a serious prayer life.

In one book, I read that on average, 1,600 USA pastors resign or are sacked each month. In my country there are over 10,000 ex pastors who gave up because of burnout or unrealistic expectations.

One other thing the tapes mentioned was the fact that these situations were sad because these men were called by God to do a special ministry.

I am not convinced however as I cannot see God approving of something contrary to his word. My own feeling is and it has been confirmed by other writers that probably at least 50% of the pastors out there should never be in ministry.

The reason they are, is that they are fuelled by rejection so they need to be needed which means their so called “calling” is nothing more than to cover up a dysfunction without having to face it.

If you are in ministry because of rejection, everything is filtered through it so you are unable to see reality. A protective mechanism builds a wall to stop you being hurt so you cannot see the wood for the trees as they say.

Apart from the forgoing, I cannot find anywhere in the New Testament Church (NTC) where they hired a pastor from outside the church to run it. Leadership in the NTC was firstly apostles and prophets and later resident Elders who were chosen from within the fellowship. Not once does it say a pastor is in charge.

What this tells me is that when you ignore the obvious and impose a man made system on a spiritually devised and God given structure, you are asking for trouble because you are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

I believe the reasons I have stated are the reasons why the current church leadership model is a killing ground for professional pastors. It doesn’t work because it was never intended to.

The question no one wants to ask is “why do we so blindly follow man’s design and ignore the scripture and what God intended for leadership of the church.”

There can only be one answer to this and that is that man has too much invested in their way of doing things and to do otherwise would mean a loss of authority, power and prestige because doing it God’s way would mean that he gets all the glory, not man.

Man’s sinful nature does not want that to happen.[/SIZE]

That is a good assessment of the symptoms and the cause of much of the problems in church leadership these days. But there is also a reason, and a root cause.

Men are not qualified to speak for God. Thus, under the mystery which Paul referred to with the example of marriage (of Christ being Head of the church), he commanded the "women" (meaning all members of the church) "should be silent." Which can not be accomplished when men lead or speak their own mind. It is only by sticking to the strict word of God, that the church and be silent and hear from God.

The gift of leadership, is a gift of humility, abandon to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Nothing more.

By our own shame, we remain in a similar slumber that to that which also came over Israel - until the fullness of the gentiles has come.