THE QUESTION NO ONE WANTS TO ASK
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Good point. There are no more prophets. The law and the prophets have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.musterion said:
Prentis
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Did he speak in agreement with the Word, live in agreement with the Spirit, and bring the life the word speaks of?musterion said:
(Before anyone accuses me of Mormonism, my answer is no)
Would this not be contradictory with Paul's letters?This Vale Of Tears said:
Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, as in show the example of a perfect walk in it and fulfill the prophets as in fulfill what they have spoken of. He goes on to speak about the commandments and those who would teach any not to follow them being least in the Kingdom.
If indeed the prophets had ceased, Paul would not speak of the order in which they should speak in the meeting.
1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
You could argue that the prophet of the New Testament functions differently than the Old Testament prophet did within God's people, that's fair. But we still have prophets to speak the heart of God for the moment, place, and people around, that His will would be done. Until the body of Christ comes to the stature of the fulness of Christ, as it is called to, the gifts will be given and function so that God would have what he gave his only son for: a bride without spot or wrinkle.
I am led to believe that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.FHII said:
So the prophecies I received from four different people at four different times at four different locations that all said the same are not from God?This Vale Of Tears said:
If their are no more prophets, then it is logical that there are no more apostles, evangelists, pastors or teachers and that means the body of christ has come to unity in the faith which is strange seeing as we have 35,000 denominations.This Vale Of Tears said:
FYI, there are millions who follow secessionist teaching who believe that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased so are they wrong or are you?
Wow. I can do that too! There are "millions" who believe the gifts of the Spirit have NOT ceased, so are they wrong or are you? Did you seriously build your argument on that pile of sand?marksman said:
Moreover, there are no more prophets in the sense that prophets represented God to the people and so God sent prophets. But then God sent his only son, which is why Hebrews opens this way: "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things."
And put in this context, it's easier to understand what Jesus meant when he said, "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ."
A central and binding belief among Christians is that we have one mediator and advocate before the father, who is Christ Jesus. It's why during the Transfiguration, Jesus was highlighted as being superior to both the law (Moses) and the prophets (Elijah) whereas before Peter thought Jesus to be equal to them.
So having leaders in the Church, priests, bishops, deacons, and even the Pope does not supplant Christ as the only one that reconciles sinners to a holy God. Priests and pastors don't take the role that prophets did in the Old Testament. They don't represent God to the people for we have direct access to "come boldly to the throne of grace" through a rent veil. This is what the cross accomplished for us.
So there are no more prophets. We have Jesus.
So Agabus wasn't a prophet?This Vale Of Tears said:
In that case why does your catholic church insist on their priests being addressed as father?This Vale Of Tears said:
If that is the case why is the pope called the vicar of Christ and is his representative on earth?This Vale Of Tears said:
And why do catholics have to go through the priest to receive forgiveness of sin?
A case of don't do what I do, do what I say by the looks of things.
And I never said that priests and pastors take the role of prophets.
If that is the case, why did God say in his Word a long time after he died and was resurrected and ascended that Jesus gave.....prophets. Ephesians 4:11.This Vale Of Tears said:
It seems a bit strange that he would give a ministry to the church after he had done away with them, don't you think?
And if there are no more prophets becuase we have Jesus, then it stands to reason that we don't need priests, pastors, teachers, evangelists apostles because we have Jesus. If he can fulfil the role of prophet, I am sure he is quite capable of fulfilling the role of the others as well.
I guess that is one way of answering a question by ignoring it and replacing it with your own question which is invalid until you have answered mine.This Vale Of Tears said:
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Choir Loft
The question posed is….
“why do we so blindly follow man’s design and ignore the scripture and what God intended for leadership of the church.”
The following is a political quotation, but I'm sure the reader will be able to navigate the parallel between politics and religion. They are, after all, kin to one another.
"Most people in the world are reluctant to form their own opinions on the basis of a personal study of anything, and they usually accept the views of those whose opinions they value. This mental laziness is an unfortunate characteristic of men and women in the United States too. The average extremist, who decides to sacrifice his life in order to kill someone else, has the same malady afflicting his psyche. He is unable to indulge in detailed deductive thinking, and if someone he respects tells him that God wants him to kill somebody, he (the extremist) believes it to be true. He seems incapable of considering the possibility that the man he respects might be totally wrong."
- Franko Vadodrano
September 11: The Inevitable Disaster: Why America Is Being Destroyed
The tendency to rely upon pre-digested material instead of personal deductive effort is epidemic in the Protestant Church today. For example, when was the last time you participated in a church sponsored Bible study? Such studies are often the predigested material offered by men and women of note and only require in some case that the assembly only watch a video presentation. No real thinking is involved (especially for the few in the back row to use the opportunity to catch a quick nap).
The tendency of Protestant leadership to reject Christ and the Holy Spirit is a curse against them. In the late 1960's and early 1970's the last truly spiritual revival swept across the country. TIME magazine printed a feature article on what was called the Jesus movement. The Holy Spirit swept into churches across the country and just as quickly was swept out by Protestant leadership. I know. I was part of it.
I was saved in 1971, an experience frowned upon by most 'legitimate' leaders of the Protestant faith. It was more important to swear allegiance to the corporate church than Jesus Christ in one's heart. I tried to do both and failed miserably. I went into seminary, and when it was discovered that I believed a personal dedication to Christ was of paramount importance I was asked a single question about the ministry……"why can't you understand it's just a job?"
And so I was shown the door.
Why do we follow man's design for the church instead of God's plan?
One can very easily salve one's conscience by attending corporate worship for an hour a week and drop a few bucks in the offering basket.
THIS IS IMPORTANT - there is no spiritual responsibility before God in corporate worship - only the responsibility to fill out a membership card and write a check at regular intervals.
Christ could care less about the offering part and as far as going to a high steeple few people church - I doubt He worries much about that either. Jesus cares about the dedication of the heart and the direction of one's life 100% of the time, not just 60 minutes once a week (or month) as the case may be.
We follow man's design for the church because it's easy. The phony part we can live with if we don't think about it too much.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
“why do we so blindly follow man’s design and ignore the scripture and what God intended for leadership of the church.”
The following is a political quotation, but I'm sure the reader will be able to navigate the parallel between politics and religion. They are, after all, kin to one another.
"Most people in the world are reluctant to form their own opinions on the basis of a personal study of anything, and they usually accept the views of those whose opinions they value. This mental laziness is an unfortunate characteristic of men and women in the United States too. The average extremist, who decides to sacrifice his life in order to kill someone else, has the same malady afflicting his psyche. He is unable to indulge in detailed deductive thinking, and if someone he respects tells him that God wants him to kill somebody, he (the extremist) believes it to be true. He seems incapable of considering the possibility that the man he respects might be totally wrong."
- Franko Vadodrano
September 11: The Inevitable Disaster: Why America Is Being Destroyed
The tendency to rely upon pre-digested material instead of personal deductive effort is epidemic in the Protestant Church today. For example, when was the last time you participated in a church sponsored Bible study? Such studies are often the predigested material offered by men and women of note and only require in some case that the assembly only watch a video presentation. No real thinking is involved (especially for the few in the back row to use the opportunity to catch a quick nap).
The tendency of Protestant leadership to reject Christ and the Holy Spirit is a curse against them. In the late 1960's and early 1970's the last truly spiritual revival swept across the country. TIME magazine printed a feature article on what was called the Jesus movement. The Holy Spirit swept into churches across the country and just as quickly was swept out by Protestant leadership. I know. I was part of it.
I was saved in 1971, an experience frowned upon by most 'legitimate' leaders of the Protestant faith. It was more important to swear allegiance to the corporate church than Jesus Christ in one's heart. I tried to do both and failed miserably. I went into seminary, and when it was discovered that I believed a personal dedication to Christ was of paramount importance I was asked a single question about the ministry……"why can't you understand it's just a job?"
And so I was shown the door.
Why do we follow man's design for the church instead of God's plan?
One can very easily salve one's conscience by attending corporate worship for an hour a week and drop a few bucks in the offering basket.
THIS IS IMPORTANT - there is no spiritual responsibility before God in corporate worship - only the responsibility to fill out a membership card and write a check at regular intervals.
Christ could care less about the offering part and as far as going to a high steeple few people church - I doubt He worries much about that either. Jesus cares about the dedication of the heart and the direction of one's life 100% of the time, not just 60 minutes once a week (or month) as the case may be.
We follow man's design for the church because it's easy. The phony part we can live with if we don't think about it too much.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
As you have failed to address the questions VOT, I assume that you cannot answer my questions.marksman said:
Pastors today are being influenced by the world's definition of success: maximum occupancy, name-dropping and superficial stuff a prayerful, holy spirit filled christian would not pursue as the be-all, end-all. Until pastors return to the crux of christianity which is faith, hope and love, many of them will continue to falter and quit their so-called calling.
God hasn't called us to be like the world. He has called us live exemplary lives that the world can emulate and so boasting in riches or head count, my friends, is not amenable to successful christian living (or church pastoring).
God hasn't called us to be like the world. He has called us live exemplary lives that the world can emulate and so boasting in riches or head count, my friends, is not amenable to successful christian living (or church pastoring).
I met a man about 6 years ago who “used to be” a Lutheran pastor and guess what? He got saved in the middle and he said the congregation could tell that something was different and they had a meeting to vote him out but he resigned.
A few years ago I was invited to the worship planning meetings for a church I attended and after that I have never been more disillusioned with how churches plan Jesus and the Holy Spirit right on out of the meeting; and all the planning is based on the “business” of making money not ministering to the people.
Exactly brother! And since America leads or has lead in the sending of missionaries out to other countries, it only stands to reason that other countries have learned this “one man” model to lead a church. I’m sure there are some churches out there doing it right but the majority, you have to wonder.
These are just my experiences and I was raised (spiritually) in a church that was actually run by the Spirit and not man (which ran a lot of people off!) and they were not "pentecostal" in doctrine or denomination but they definitely believed in all 9 gifts in operation in the church today. And I miss that church.
I know some will say you can't live in the past, you have to get involved in the now.DoUPray2 said:
However, the church everywhere lives in the past for the simple reason that everything in the bible is in the past, not the present.
The scripture does say to press towards the mark and to seek those things that are above and we have no continuing city. That is the truth but that does not mean that we can't learn from the past and apply the lessons from the past, especially when they are better than the present.
One could say that what the idea of being faithful is nothing more than flogging a dead horse and avoiding making the changes needed to bring life back into the church.
There is nothing in scripture to suggest that the New Testament Church for the first hundred years did exactly the same thing every week of its existence, not like we do today.
I don't disagree with your sentiments but I sometimes wonder if they have no choice.CafeHope said:
One of my favourite subjects which I have studied extensively is church history. Because of this, I have a tendency to read between the lines in all things religious. One of the things that seems to rear its ugly head is that loyalty to the denomination is more important than loyalty to the word of God. If their is a conflict, the pastor has to submit to denominational practice and belief and forego what the scripture teaches.
One classic example is the teaching about Elders in Timothy and Titus. I can't tell you the number of times I have been told that this teaching refers to pastors, or that it means a pastor is an elder despite the fact that the Greek word for pastor does not appear in the passages.
They totally ignore the fact that the word Elder in Greek means older men chronologically. That being the case, why do they appoint men in their 20s to be pastors bearing in mind that in Jewish life you are not deemed an Elder until you are at least 40 y.o.
One former church I was in had a 30 something pastor who has a terrible problem with anger but that was OK because he was loyal to the denomination.
Eph 4:11-13http://biblia.com/bible/hcsb/Eph 4.11-13
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Have you noticed some obvious conclusions here? It says that he gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets some to be evangelists, some to be pastors and some to be teachers.
What did he give them for?
One. Perfecting of the saints
Two. The work of the ministry
Three. Edifying the body of Christ.
Four. Unity of the faith.
Five. Knowledge of the Son of God with the purpose of achieving the perfect man expressing the fullness of Christ. .
Have you noticed that it does not say he gave some to be pastors to achieve one to five. He gave five different ministries. I wonder why? Could it be that one to five cannot be achieved unless all five ministries are operating?
Have you noticed that the church generally ignores three of the five and many four, and that is the reason why we will never achieve one to five without all five ministries?
I for one cannot see how the church is going to achieve God’s purpose on earth if we choose to ignore what the scripture says.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Have you noticed some obvious conclusions here? It says that he gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets some to be evangelists, some to be pastors and some to be teachers.
What did he give them for?
One. Perfecting of the saints
Two. The work of the ministry
Three. Edifying the body of Christ.
Four. Unity of the faith.
Five. Knowledge of the Son of God with the purpose of achieving the perfect man expressing the fullness of Christ. .
Have you noticed that it does not say he gave some to be pastors to achieve one to five. He gave five different ministries. I wonder why? Could it be that one to five cannot be achieved unless all five ministries are operating?
Have you noticed that the church generally ignores three of the five and many four, and that is the reason why we will never achieve one to five without all five ministries?
I for one cannot see how the church is going to achieve God’s purpose on earth if we choose to ignore what the scripture says.
first let me say you will almost never see a full time evangelist in a church body with the exception of an evangelist visiting or being a special speaker.
an apostle will be in the church to get it started but after that you will rarely see him.
teachers and prophets are usually in the church at all times.
now i was taught that we are not supposed to call ourselves apostles, prophets, teachers or evangelists. our fruit will be seen by others and they will be the ones to say who they think we are. as long as we follow our calling from God and listen to his voice then we cannot go wrong. when we get stuck upon titles then we start to lose sight of God's vision for us.
now i also believe we should call pastors by the pastor title because it is a sign of respect. to skip the pastor title and just call them by their christian name is disrespectful. when you go to a business meeting with your seniors then it is not right to call your boss joe without permission. the same is true for recognizing a pastor.
btw i understand why you all think that few pastors or anyone else seems to be called to the ministry. but you are wrong about reasoning. as the Word teaches many are called but few are chosen. this saying has a lot of meaning to it that i won't get into here atm but don't assume just because a person quits or get fired from ministry that they were not called. instead we need to ask ourself why did they not become successful? being burnt out in ministry is a common occurrence but ask yourself why are they burnt out?
God bless
an apostle will be in the church to get it started but after that you will rarely see him.
teachers and prophets are usually in the church at all times.
now i was taught that we are not supposed to call ourselves apostles, prophets, teachers or evangelists. our fruit will be seen by others and they will be the ones to say who they think we are. as long as we follow our calling from God and listen to his voice then we cannot go wrong. when we get stuck upon titles then we start to lose sight of God's vision for us.
now i also believe we should call pastors by the pastor title because it is a sign of respect. to skip the pastor title and just call them by their christian name is disrespectful. when you go to a business meeting with your seniors then it is not right to call your boss joe without permission. the same is true for recognizing a pastor.
btw i understand why you all think that few pastors or anyone else seems to be called to the ministry. but you are wrong about reasoning. as the Word teaches many are called but few are chosen. this saying has a lot of meaning to it that i won't get into here atm but don't assume just because a person quits or get fired from ministry that they were not called. instead we need to ask ourself why did they not become successful? being burnt out in ministry is a common occurrence but ask yourself why are they burnt out?
God bless
Born_Again
Well-Known Member
I have recently seen this in a church I visited. I had been to this church before and have seen it very successful and full of the spirit. Now, it has very little faith and the congregation is more or less keeping up appearances. Now, that being said, I happen to know the pastor and had in depth talks with him. He is still full of the Holy Spirit and has a good message. But his church has also had "update" its forum to keep up with the times.... Adding a band on stage and try to be a bit more "hip" to draw the younger crowds. This being said, my general observation isn't that the pastor has failed, it's that the an unreasonable expectation has been set by the Christian community who need to be dazzled by sites and sounds to worship and even "feel" the spirit. I use the word "feel" in the sense that they need the audio and visual stimulation of their senses in order to be captivated. I think this could also lead to a false sense of "enlightenment".7angels said:
Do I think the emerging Christian community has set an unreasonable expectation? Yes. It seems as if they expect the church to "push" or "plant" the Holy Spirit in them without putting in the effort themselves to know Christ. This then would present, on the congregations behalf, false faith. This then connects to the reasons why the world speaks out against Christians because they do that very thing. I think the upcoming generations have put more effort into denying Christ then they have getting to know Him and when He does not work miracles in their lives, the pastor is partly blamed therefor he may resign as he may feel he is not leading the flock as well as he should.
Satan is so alive in the world today that the believer can not simply say, "Yes I believe and I am saved." It has to be lived. They cannot set this expectation on the pastor to save them every Sunday from what they had done the week prior too.
BA out!!
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The leadership of the church is the primary source of problems that I've seen. Christians expect too much from their pastor. There is supposed to be a whole leadership structure with the elders in charge. Of the few churches that still have elders fewer still are equipped with wisdom beyond that of the other congregants. James 3:13.
Who will accept someone to be an authority over them in this society? We live in a society that delights itself in its own pride, a society where humility is shameful.
Look at the Lord's final solution in revelation, he will rule with an iron scepter. His authority in his reign will be absolute. Why then do we allow the Spirit of God to be stifled today, and yet we pray his Kingdom come?
Who will accept someone to be an authority over them in this society? We live in a society that delights itself in its own pride, a society where humility is shameful.
Look at the Lord's final solution in revelation, he will rule with an iron scepter. His authority in his reign will be absolute. Why then do we allow the Spirit of God to be stifled today, and yet we pray his Kingdom come?
Reminds me of the saying that only a fool does the same thing all the time and expects a different outcome.lforrest said:
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