The Rapture Of The Church

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Jordan

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Glorified??At the seventh trump ALL are changed to their true state of spirit not fleshThe truly wicked of heart (which only God know) seize to exist, the lost and unrepentant sinners are taught the truth then Satan is loosed for a short time to test those that were taught so that they also can overcome. Then there is judgement day.
Kriss, thank you for the back up. I so appreciate that. Jody, we will all change to our true state. All flesh body will die. Our true state, right where we belong. Our flesh is just a vessel for our soul to be in. Our flesh is like made out of clay like figureYou know think about the vase, they use wet clay and when it makes, let it sit in the sun to harden...it's like right we are in right now....Do you think our flesh gets harden if there was no sun at all.Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
 

jodycour

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I Corth.15:51-54Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,Vs.52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.Vs.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, ant this mortal must put on immortality.Vs.54so when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be broughtto pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.This is what I mean by glorified!
 

Jordan

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If you still believe that evil shall not be in an incorruptible state, what makes Lucifer?Even in a true state, there is still going to be a second death, the death of the soul. Even in a true state doesn't mean we are going to live for eternity. That to to wait at Judgement Day.Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.
 

elmo

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after those in christ who are dead rise first and we who are alive in christ rise next then what happens during the rapture...is everyone in the rapture condemned to death or do the repentent believers during the rapture have the chance to redeem themselves by refusing the mark and resisting the devil's persecution?and if all the people in the rapture are condemned to death then why not just send them to hell and skip the rapture?but if they do have the chance...that would make more sense to have a rapture for those who at first rejected God and yet repented and refused the mark...afterword.
 

Christina

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Well for less confusion we need to do away with the word rapture sense its not in Gods word. The changing that takes place at the last trump (7th) is for ALL none is condemed to death except Satan. All those that dont follow Satan when he comes first and Stay in Christ till the end will be the teachers of those that were lost or need teaching then they will have a chance to redeem themselves through the same testing of Satan we have to overcome. The judgement then comes at the end of 1000 year millieum.it is after judgement we are glorified
 

Christina

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You must also remember elmo that even after the changing we are All in our natural spirit state. We no longer will operate on earth time one day in Gods time is 1000 years to a human on earth so 1000 years of milliuem will seem to be one day.
 

Christina

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Hi-ya JodyOur natural spirit Bodies will house our soul(hearts/mind) instead of physical bodies another words even though we will be spirit rather than flesh you will still be Jody,I will still be kriss I dont mean our names but who we are our personalities.We will just be improved because we all will know Gods truth and no worries about physical things. The best us in heaven so to speak
 

n2thelight

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JodycourLet me see if I can helpI Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"This is what happens to the dead body, for this body is doomed to corruption of decay from the day each of us are born, to the day we die. That is the ageing process, and no matter how you try to extend your life, it will not be for more than a few years. When this flesh body is finished, the soul that is within it is raised in incorruption. We are talking about flesh bodies, and what happen to them. I Corinthians 15:43 "It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:"I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you. Your spirit never leaves your soul, even at the death of your flesh body. Satan does not have any power over your spiritual body, but only your flesh body. Man and Satan can tare this flesh body to peaces and cause you to do all sorts of things, but no-one can damage your soul, not man, not Satan nor the angels. God is the only one that can destroy the soul and that comes at the end of the Millennium age, following judgment. However through deception Satan can cause you to sin against God, and thus be in trouble before the Almighty God. But that is why we have repentance in the name of Jesus to become right-standing before the Father again.It just can't be made any clearer than Paul has made it here. You have two bodies, the flesh and the spiritual bodies. When the flesh body dies, then the spiritual body is awakened and come alive within itself. It starts to live a life without the baggage of the flesh body confining it to the limits of the flesh. Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then [at death] shall the dust [flesh body] return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [spiritual body] shall return [instantly] to God [Father] Who gave it."Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." This is written by Solomon to the flesh man that walks under the sun, and when the life of the flesh is over, it has no more knowledge or thought than a stick or rock. It is useless, but the soul that is within it is gone and with the Father. Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"Paul is now going to show us a mystery that deals with our generation, for a mystery is something that cannot be understood. However, when the details and clues of the mystery are know, then it is no longer a mystery. This mystery deals with a time when something is going to happen all over the earth to all flesh bodies, when these flesh bodies are not die anymore. Why will this be? Because all people living in their flesh bodies will be changed instantly from their flesh bodies, into their new incorruptible bodies. We have already established that each of us have two bodies, one is of the flesh, and the other body is a spiritual body that is within our flesh body. The spiritual body is not made alive or freed from the flesh body until the flesh body is done away with. I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."The time that it will take to change all the physical or natural bodies on this earth into their spiritual bodies will be faster than you can wink your eye. It is instant. Paul is telling us that this change will come "at the last trump", and that is when there are no more trumps. He identifies that trumpet as the seventh trumpet, and we know that this is the very moment when Jesus Christ comes back to earth to establish His Millennium kingdom, right here on earth. We are talking about God's trumpets here and on the sixth trumpet Satan comes to earth to deceive the whole world. If you are waiting for a rapture, then you are going to be raptured by someone other than Jesus Christ for He is coming to earth to set up His kingdom here. The seventh trump is the exact time when the change takes place, and at no other place. Remember the "dead" are the "spiritually dead" in Christ. "Raised" again means to "become awakened", to become active from another existence. The soul will shed its flesh and blood body to take on the new spiritual body, which is the incorruptible body. You may be spiritually dead, but you will also take on your new incorruptible body, which you will live in for the Millennium age kingdom of Christ.Everyone is going to enter into the only dimension whereby any soul can be judged. This change from the flesh body into your new spiritual or incorruptible has nothing to do with the condition of your soul. If you were lost before, you still will be lost, and if you have received Jesus Christ and are under His shed blood, you will be in that same spiritual condition. What is happening is at the sounding of the seventh which is the last trumpet all flesh will be done away with, and all souls will now exist in their spiritual bodies. I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."Through this entire chapter Paul has brought to our attention that we have two bodies within each of us. We have our physical body, which is made up of flesh and blood, and we have our spiritual body which is called our soul. The flesh body will die at some point in time and the spiritual body or soul body that houses or spirit will live on after death. "Mortal must put on immortality" applies only to the soul, for all flesh will be gone at death, or at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. So immortality applies only to the soul body, and even in the incorruptible body the sting of death of that soul is still on it if that soul has not received eternal life. Immortality for the soul in the Millennium age is only for those souls that have eternal life, and did not worship Satan, and take on his name, and the number of the beast. http://www.theseason.org/1corin/1corin15.htm
 

jodycour

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I have several problems with your theories here, n2thelight!1) What makes you spiritually dead? Sin!How can a spiritually dead spirit that has sin in it, which is death live in an incorruptable body?That is not scripturally sound!2)When you die is not the time that you become spiritually awakened!You are spiritually awakened when you are born again.2Corth. 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.We are all spiritually born dead, but when we recieve Christ, that's when our spirit man comes alive, and we recieve eternal life.3)Revelation 20:13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.Vs.14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.If what you said earlier is true and all will be changed, why is the sea, giving up the dead?Also, in:Mathew 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Vs.53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.Why did the graves have to be opened for these bodies to come out and walk around if they were just spiritual bodies?
 

Christina

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Im sure N2 will address this but I can tell you that we are to fear the death of our soul not our bodies.Called the second death. So souls can die. also we are told that during the milliuem many will be taught. This is why Satan is loosed again for a short time to test those newly taught as we were tested. I can only guess that truly wicked will be changed to realize the vastness of their error. For if you are not shown truth undeniable that you were wrong how would you know?? I dont think the truly evil will have but a few minutes to realize why they are doomed
 

Christina

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Jody found this post thought you might find it of interest I was once a pretribulationist and after I realized my error, one asset in studying the return of Christ was to compare what pre- and posttribulationists each said about particular verses. Through this investigative process, I found 1 Corinthians 1:7 to be a real thorn in my pretribulational side. This verse has turned out to be very important in concluding that Christ would return at the end of the Tribulation period, when He would be revealed to the world in judgement. But one constant "complaint" I often voiced to the Lord was the lack of one Scripture that would say, 'The Lord is coming for His Church at or near the end of the Tribulation" I eventually came across 1 Corinthians 1.7, which brought me satisfaction: KJV "So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:" NIV "Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed." RSV "so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ;..." NASB "so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,..."Paul said the Thessalonian church was to be in a position of "awaiting eagerly the REVELATION (Apokalypsis) of our Lord Jesus Christ." But Jesus did not come; the Thessalonians died waiting. But that did not negate the future members of the Church (meaning us) from eagerly awaiting "the revelation." In the face of current world events, the entire Church is waiting for His return, but not all are expecting that return according to 1 Corinthians 1:7, meaning His coming for the waiting Church at the time He is revealed to the world. The definition of 'revelation' or "revealed" rules out the use of this word to describe the pretribulational secret coming for the Church. In pretribulationism, I believed verses using "revealed" meant that Christ is uncovered only to the Church at the rapture, such as in 1 Peter 5:1: "5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed (apokalupsis)."Imagine my shock when I later found this "private revelation" to be an assumption added to these cases. Such a pretrib revelation is nowhere found in Scripture. The fact that a waiting Church must be on earth when Jesus is revealed is evident The word Greek for "revealed' as given in Vine's is "apokalupsis," meaning, "revelation, an uncovering," and is akin to "apokalupto," meaning to uncover. So the interpretation of 1 Corinthians 1:7 should be simple enough: the Church is to eagerly await Jesus' return until his 'uncovering' to the world when every eye sees Him and to use the gifts God gives until that revelation. As a pretribulationist, I had no doubt that His "revelation" meant "every eye would see Him" (Rev. 1:7). It still does. What I didn't realize was that I, as a member of His Church, was to "eagerly wait for it" instead of a secret coming. Scofield's KJV Reference Bible notes translates "apokalupsis" as "coming" in this verse, but even his notes maintain "the coming" is "the revelation" of Christ: "Apokalupsis, employed here,.. (means) unveiling, revelation. This word emphasizes the visibility of the Lord's return." I've looked for commentary on this verse in books, other than the Bible, written by pretribers, but have yet to find any who comment on it. Someone may have, but I haven't found it. Because of the damaging conclusion one must draw from it in the pretribulational view, leaving it alone is understandable. The verse has a simple message; there is no other meaning. There can't be another meaning because it is straightforward, "the revelation of," "the uncovering of," and not "the secret revelation of" or "the secret uncovering of." Putting all the other verses of His coming into a pre-trib scenario was for me somewhat appealing until I tried to place this verse into that scenario. A time came in my Christian life when I had to ask myself, "Why am I INSISTING in my mind that this verse MUST mean something else? Why am I almost unconsciously attempting to get a pretrib meaning out of it?" (After all, we are to renew our minds by conforming our thinking to the word of God, not by conforming the word to our thinking. Finally, I had to admit that I had deceived myself concerning the time of Christ's returning for me as a member of His body, the Church. I was trying to get something else out of it because I realized that if the word "revealed" in 1 Corinthians 1:7 meant what everyone seemed to say it meant, then I had the Church raptured before the Tribulation but also on earth near the end of it when the revelation of Christ occurs. Furthermore, if I was to wait for his revealing (or uncovering or visible return), which can only occur at the end of the Tribulation, I was found to be guilty of waiting for "another Jesus" to come before that time. If I couldn't get another meaning out of this verse, the tremendous weight of it would crush my waning pre-trib beliefs. I didn't succeed; I never could get another meaning out of it, and my mind no longer insisted on another.
 

jodycour

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Actually, Kriss.I've never been so bent on the pre-Trib believe as much as I know and believe that He is coming soon.It really doesn't matter too me when. What matters to me is that He does return for me and He will take me with Him into His Kingdom that will never end.I also long for my Glorified body so that I can be like Him and with Him always!
 

Christina

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You and me both JodyThat is a fine attitude as long as you know, if your on earth and if you can pinch you physical body he is not here yet reguardless of the delusions we will see.
 

n2thelight

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Jody
Actually, Kriss.I've never been so bent on the pre-Trib believe as much as I know and believe that He is coming soon.It really doesn't matter too me when. What matters to me is that He does return for me and He will take me with Him into His Kingdom that will never end.I also long for my Glorified body so that I can be like Him and with Him always!
True,He is coming soon,but the danger in believing in the pre trib rapture,is that most who believe in this doctrine will believe satan to be Christ,when he comes first,pretending to be Christ.That's why it does matter that you know when He returns,so that you won't be deceived by the false one.
 

jodycour

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I honestly don't believe that I will be decieved by the false anti-christ,I know the real Christ Jesus too well for that!I truly have an intimate relationship with Him, that goes on every day all day long!check out some of my songs at: wwwjodycourvillesmusic.comand you'll see where my heart is and where my relationship is with my true messiah!
 

lloydnook

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JodyTrue,He is coming soon,but the danger in believing in the pre trib rapture,is that most who believe in this doctrine will believe satan to be Christ,when he comes first,pretending to be Christ.That's why it does matter that you know when He returns,so that you won't be deceived by the false one.
Lloydnook:THE RAPTURE: Revelation Chapter 8 V.1 And when He opened the (a)7th seal, there came to be (b)silence in the heaven about half an hour.(a) The first 6 seals were opened in quick succession with brief descriptions. The descriptions fit what our Lord said to His disciples in Matt. 24, and parallel passages. In V.8 of Matt. 24 the Lord shows that the various calamities must happen as a prelude, and in V.9 that world wide Jewry would be persecuted. This of course has happened many times, but never so badly as the second world war of 1939-1945, which was an accelerating impetus (together with the 1st world war, which forced Turkey to relinquish Palestine in war reparation,) to the formation of the present state of Israel, and clearly is significant. In the 39-45 war, the "Final Solution," was proposed by Hitler to exterminate all Jews, which had he won would have been a world wide effort. As it is, he killed more than 6 million in Europe. There is however worse to come. In Chp. 6:4, "the peace is taken from the earth," which in the case of Israel had been established by agreement with the State of Israel and the Antichrist previously, (Dan. 9:27;) but in the case of other nations, will also probably be with the help of Antichrist. The world's Christendom leaders have been, and are, teaching that it is the Christian's duty to work for peace in the world so that the world will be a fitting place for Christ to return to. “This is known as the Ecumenical Movement!” This of course ignores what Scripture says will be the case, but this teaching will make Antichrist totally acceptable to the gullible, as he will agree with and endorse and enable such teaching. Since the mid A.D. 1800s knowledge has accelerated, technology increased, with the consequent huge expansion of war, travel, communication etc., (Dan. 12:4.) This expansion coincides with an event in 1858 of the publication of Charles Darwin's "Origin of Species," which led to conflict between theologians and scientists, called "The great debate." In the event the scientists won that debate, and the power (albeit corrupted) of the church declined. Although there have been attempts to renew Bible teaching through various groupings, the influences of alternative activities and interests holds sway in the present day, and what Bible teaching there is, is corrupted in the main. The exhortations of the Apostle Paul "to know and work at Scripture," (paraphrased,) in the present time is not accepted. Rather, the case is that of 2 Tim. 3:1, "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come." These verses from 1 to 5 certainly describe very accurately the present day developing conditions on earth. The foregoing is laid out in support of the timing possibility of a special event which must yet take place. Since the Lord's death on the Calvary cross, and at the moment in time that He gave up voluntarily His spirit of life to the Father (Matt. 27:50) and the Veil of the Temple was rent from top to bottom, a special condition has prevailed on earth. The ripping of the Veil, which barred the way into the Holy of Holies in the Jewish Temple, signified that access to the presence of Jehovah was no longer barred, and that Christ's death as substitute sacrifice was acceptable to the Father for men and women of right heart (good will.) This means (and the condition is still in place) that as the Apostle Paul and others describe, "faith (Trust) in Christ's sacrifice and in Him only is all that is required for Salvation (to be made whole before God,)" (paraphrased.) As well as this gift of Salvation, this grouping of people have a special destination and purpose, which will start with a special event, called the "Translation," or "Rapture," (1 Cor. 15:51.) This taking away from earth has to take place prior to the "Wrath of God on earth," (1 Thess. 1:10) (1 Thess. 5:9) to be visited on rebellious mankind, and partly simultaneous with that wrath will be the worst tribulation visited on the Jews by the "Prince of this world," that has yet ever taken place, (Matt. 24:21-22.) (
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The "silence;" in heaven, augers a prelude, an anticipation, prior to special and/ or main events. The fact that half an hour is mentioned must have a meaning. The Interlinear no.2256 confirms the text. Part of the root 2255 gives the idea of "partition," with the possible idea of a time space before the next and culminating events of the Wrath of Jehovah God! An idea on the timing, when considering 2Peter 3:8 could be 1000 divided by 48(24x2) = 21 years approx. or as stated, literally half an hour. The descriptions of what are released in the following verses and chapters are indeed terrible. The release of the 7th seal is also the last one for the Lamb of God. The Lamb is also Christ Jesus, and when He has released the 7th seal, He is free to continue the plan of Jehovah God. It is determined in the plan of God that Christ will descend from the right hand of the Father, "when His enemies are made His footstool," (paraphrased,) (Matt. 22:44,) (Mk. 12:36,) (Lk. 20:43,) (Acts 2:35,) (Heb. 1:13,)(Heb. 10:13,) (Psm. 110:1.) The timing of the Rapture of Christians (1 Cor. 15:51,) (Christ's Body) has been the subject of much debate and speculation. Some say prior to the "70th week" of Daniel's prophecy, others at the same time as the saving of the "remnant," of Jews, and many other ideas abound. However, one overriding comment repeatedly seems to give the main clue, (Rom. 5:9) which speak of exclusion from "wrath," in fact wrath is reserved for those that "hold down," or suppress the Truth (Rom. 1:18.) The most convincing and probably conclusive is 1 Thess. 1:10 and 5:9, which shows not only exclusion from wrath, but also uses the word "rescued," from the wrath to come. As Christ in verse one has just been released from His seal releasing duties, and as the 7th seal (the last) is also the one that releases the wrath of God on humankind, the "silence," or pause is opportune for Him to collect His Body, (1 Thess. 4:13-17) and (1 Cor. 15:51,52,) which is one of the main views. However, at present (Feb. 2001) the writer holds to the view that it will be prior to the start of the events of Revelation one, which would place it approx. halfway through the “70th” week.” After that wondrous event, whatever its timing, there is time alone for the Body (True Church) with the Lord, which is a refining and reward time for individual Christians, who are now in a different body or state (Rom. 14:10,) (1 Cor. 3:10-15,) (2 Cor. 5:10,) but we are then with the Lord for ever (ALWAYS) (1Thess. 4:17.) The "ALWAYS," here in the Greek, has the flavour of not just time but also at His side, (or in His presence.) The Lord must then arrive on earth the second time (called the 2nd Advent,) to rescue the remnant of His people Israel, (in their flesh,) to subdue and defeat by force the nations ranged against them, to Judge the nations, and to set up and preside in the Millennial reign. As we are told by Paul that we (true Christ-ones) are "ever," with the Lord, it is the opinion of the writer that we arrive on earth with Christ (1Thess. 3:13), (Jude 14.)
 

Jordan

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Ezekiel 13:20 - Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.