The Rapture vs. the Pre-tribulational Rapture

[Davy]

This is what 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (WEB) says:

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

That sure sounds to me like Jesus does come to the earth (or at least to the air above the earth, among the clouds).

And you are correct, that is exactly what that is pointing to. But don't stop there, because the greater detail of Christ's future return and gathering of His saints is written in Zechariah 14, and in His Olivet discourse (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

 

[Davy]

So they will be meeting the Lord in the Holy Spirit in fact.
The worthy will be caught up in together his Majesty !

Spiritual speaking, they who have passed away and who are alive are caught up in his Majesty to meet the Lord Christ Jesus in the Holy Spirit !

Caught up means Involved ?

So They who are of Christ Jesus = "His" regardless of having past away or living in the flesh body ? are Involved to meet the Lord Christ Jesus in the Holy Spirit !
This is on about Souls ? Souls that are connected ! to Christ Jesus.

What Paul showed in 1 Thess.4:13-17 is not spiritual philosophy, but literal truth that will occur on the day of Christ's future return.

The idea of the saints still alive on earth being "caught up" in the "air" is about the future change on the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15 that Paul taught. At that moment, all alive on earth shall be changed, at the 'twinkling of an eye'. And then immediately Christ's saints on earth are caught up to Jesus as He is returning with the asleep saints from Heaven that He brings with Him, like Paul also said.

The last day of this world, with Lord Jesus' future return, is going to reveal the Heavenly dimension to all.

 

[Davy]

Sorry, what is the pre-tribulation rapture? Thanks. I looked it up and got the idea that the rapture is when the chosen ones are all collected, right?

The idea of a "pre-tribulation rapture" is FALSE.

The idea of a rapture immediately AFTER the great tribulation is TRUE.

 

[Davy]

It is totally illogical and fanciful to interpret 1 Thess. 4:17 in that way! What supporting evidence do you have to make you think that is the correct interpretation? What other verses use the words 'air' and 'clouds' in the same manner?

The word 'air' only occurs 11 times in the whole Bible, so it is quick and easy to see that none of those occurrences of the word 'air' can be interpreted to mean "The Holy Spirit". Likewise I can't spot any verses using the word cloud or clouds where it could be interpreted as "His majesty". You're deluding yourself.

As Tommy Cool said,

and all Scripture is given by the inspiration of God (2 Timothy 3:16, WEB: "Every Scripture is God-breathed"). What did the two angels say at Jesus' ascension? Acts 1:11 (WEB):

(11) ... “You men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who was received up from you into the sky, will come back in the same way as you saw him going into the sky.”​

The disciples saw Jesus rising up into the sky. When he returns for the Church, his bride, he will in the same manner descend from the sky, and the resurrected and those alive "will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air".

Matthew 26:64 (WEB):

(64) Jesus said to him, “You have said it. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of the sky.”​

You have missed also that the final 7th Vial is cast into the "air", and not on the earth. That is pointing to the same idea Paul was pointing to in 1 Thess.4, because in 1 Cor.15 Paul showed on the "last trump" those alive on earth will be 'changed', at the twinkling of an eye. And Peter also showed on that same "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes, God's consuming fire will burn man's works off the earth. Likewise Lord Jesus even showed every eye will see His coming in the clouds per Rev.1. Even in 1 Thess.5, Paul showed there will come a "sudden destruction" upon the wicked on that "day of the Lord".

So put all that together and it means at that 'hour', the death of this present flesh world will have ended, and the veil of this world hiding the Heavenly from us will be suddenly revealed, at an instant. Even on the 6th Seal we are shown Jesus' coming, and the wicked on earth seeing The Father on His throne in Heaven, with His cup of wrath getting ready to be poured out, and their seeking to hide.

So when you guys read your Bible, and you come upon those Scripture events, do you just then put them out of your mind, and not together per The Holy Spirit? What are you listening to instead that is preventing you from understanding how those events point to the coming events with Jesus' coming that will literally end this present world time?

 

[Davy]

Yes, it's referring to the Christians who are alive when the first resurrection takes place. The dead in Christ are resurrected as spirit beings, and the Christians still alive will be changed to become spirit beings and caught up to join the resurrected Christians and Jesus amongst the clouds in the sky. From that point they/we will be forever with Jesus. The "pre-tribulation" part is referring to the timing of the rapture. Some, like me, believe that the rapture will take place before the great tribulation (mentioned in Revelation 6), whereas some Christians believe it will occur after or during the great tribulation.

And those of us who 'know' Christ's coming to gather His saints AFTER the tribulation is according to His written Word, and not man's tinkering with a false pre-trib rapture theory.

For those who want to know, see Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 where Jesus revealed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation of those days. And especially notice the last phrases of Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27, because they are a direct parallel to what Paul was teaching in 1 Thess.4. One group of saints are gathered from Heaven (i.e., the 'asleep' saints Paul said Jesus brings with Him), and the other group of saints gathered are from the earth (i.e., those 'caught up" to Jesus per Paul).

 

[Davy]

What do you mean by "spirit beings"???

Read 1 Corinthians 15:35-54.

The body type of the resurrection, AND of the future world, is a "spiritual body" according to Paul.

That is the type body the resurrection is, and is the type body those alive on earth when Jesus comes will be 'changed' to.

The only... type of death remaining after that happens will be the "second death", which is the casting of one's spirit and soul into the future "lake of fire" at the Great White Throne Judgement that happens at the end of the "thousand years" of Rev.20.

 

[Davy]

I am trying to get my head straight around this.

What about Christ?

When He was resurrected, was He also resurrected as a "spirit being"???

Eventually, yes. In 1 Corinthians 15:45-47, Paul showed that Jesus' body was made "a quickening spirit"...

1 Cor 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
KJV

1 Cor 15:47
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
KJV

 

[DarylFawcett]

Eventually,

What do you mean by "Eventually"?

 

[rockytopva]

And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:39-40

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3:2-3

If your eschatology is correct...

1. You will be anticipating the Lord to come at any time
2. You will live a life of purity as a result

 

[DarylFawcett]

If your eschatology is correct...

1. You will be anticipating the Lord to come at any time
2. You will live a life of purity as a result

Amen! Amen! Amen!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:39-40

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3:2-3

If your eschatology is correct...

1. You will be anticipating the Lord to come at any time
2. You will live a life of purity as a result

Equals being Born again of the Holy Spirit in fact.

Christ Jesus came to me, just out of the blue, bingo ! The lights came on and I knew who he truly was directly.
I did know "of" him before that ? but I did not "know him" until that day. I was only religious before, not Saved !

Once truly Saved you can not go back to the vomit.

Being truly Saved means 100% faith in Christ Jesus, like a full cup ! If one has any doubts in Christ Jesus you are not Saved ! You can not back slide, because you are Saved ! You are one in the same in Christ Jesus Body = Home ! not Lost. Not of this world ! but of the Kingdom of God in fact. Praise the Lord our Saviour of our Soul. And it feels wonderful ! it's Awesome ! The strength and power that can come from such.

 

[Davy]

What do you mean by "Eventually"?

Christ's flesh body was raised, but then 'transfigured' to "a quickening spirit". That is what the Scriptures are revealing. That happened only for Lord Jesus, as even Acts 2:27 shows that Jesus' flesh would not see corruption (i.e., decay in the tomb). Paul made it plain that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (spiritual body). Jesus being made "a quickening spirit" per Paul in that same chapter means His flesh body was transfigured into a spiritual body at some point.

For us though, our flesh perishes back to the earthly elements, and it is our spirit with soul that is brought to Paradise at flesh death.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Amen! Amen! Amen!

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...

 

[Davy]

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...

Does that really belong in this thread about the idea of a Rapture?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided!

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...

Does that really belong in this thread about the idea of a Rapture?

Why not? @DarylFawcett may just be Encouraged to "join in" And
participate in a Great Discussion on The Truth Of God's:

Great GRACE Departure! ​

​

Amen? Amen And AMEN!

 

[Biblethumper]

I disagree I firmly believe in the Pre-Trib Jesus spoke of his second coming in Matthew. The Rapture however was a mystery In Corinthians 15:51-52 it was only revealed to Paul who was the apostle to the Gentiles . 1Thes 4:16-18 also tells us so and comfort one another knowing we won’t face Gods wrath. 1 Thes 5:9. Also 2 Thes 2:6-8 tells us the restrainer the Holy Spirit in dwelt in believers the church must be taken out of the way so the Antichrist can be revealed. Christians are holding back the evil until it is time. We are the bride of Christ that Jesus will take us to his Fathers house where he prepares a place for us and have the wedding before the Father and we will return with Christ at the end of the Tribulation . 1 Peter 4:17 tells us believers must be judged first for our rewards for our service on earth and to get our assignments for the millennium kingdom. Zechariah 14:4-5 tells us we will be with Christ as he touches down on the MT of Olives . Luke 21:36 tells us to keep watch and pray to escape Gods wrath which 1 Thes 5:9 for God has not appointed us to wrath but salvation . Bible says we will still have tribulations while we r still on earth but that is the daily struggles we have on earth and being persecuted in non friendly countries . Suffering and enduring The Tribulation will be for the tribulation saints that have to resist taking the mark of the beast. Christ is our blessed hope in John 14:3 where he takes us to be with him and escape the Trib

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Broken down into easier [for some of us elderly folk] reading/digesting morsels?:

I disagree I firmly believe in the Pre-Trib Jesus spoke of his second coming in Matthew. The Rapture however was a mystery In Corinthians 15:51-52 it was only revealed to Paul who was the apostle to the Gentiles .

Amen!

1Thes 4:16-18 also tells us so and comfort one another knowing we won’t face Gods wrath. 1 Thes 5:9. Also 2 Thes 2:6-8 tells us the restrainer the Holy Spirit in dwelt in believers the church must be taken out of the way so the Antichrist can be revealed.

The Holy Spirit, As He "Dwells In the members of The Body of Christ," removed, but,
His Omnipresence is "Not removed," Correct?

Christians are holding back the evil until it is time. We are the bride of Christ that Jesus will take us to his Fathers house where he prepares a place for us and have the wedding before the Father and we will return with Christ at the end of the Tribulation .

Or, is "The Bride, The Heavenly Jerusalem" (Rev 19:17, 21:2, 9)? And, we, The Body Of Christ,
are "The ONE New Man" (Eph 2:15), Correct?

1 Peter 4:17 tells us believers must be judged first for our rewards for our service on earth and to get our assignments for the millennium kingdom. Zechariah 14:4-5 tells us we will be with Christ as he touches down on the MT of Olives .

Or possibly?: we (Body Of Christ) will "be assigned" our Heavenly positions of ruling and
reigning (see 'prophecy #4, Mystery #7b, and The * Note,' in Great Grace Departure study)?

Luke 21:36 tells us to keep watch and pray to escape Gods wrath which 1 Thes 5:9 for God has not appointed us to wrath but salvation . Bible says we will still have tribulations while we r still on earth but that is the daily struggles we have on earth and being persecuted in non friendly countries .

Luke is for Israel going Into Great Trib, and 1 Thes 5:9 and 1:10 is for us (Body Of Christ).
Amen?

Suffering and enduring The Tribulation will be for the tribulation saints that have to resist taking the mark of the beast. Christ is our blessed hope in John 14:3 where he takes us to be with him and escape the Trib

Yes, as our (Body Of Christ) almost 2000 years of tribulation, suffering, persecutions, and
infirmities Will Be Ended at The Appearing of our Blessed Hope (Titus 2:13), and our
Wonderful Deliverance From (the above, and) the Presence of sin, our glorification In
God's Great Grace Departure To GloryLand (1Co 15:51-57; 2Th 4:13-18), Wonderful
Comfort, Amen?
--------------------------------
And, Finally, Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided! (+ I and II!)

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…

 

[Davy]

It saddens me to read what deceived brethren here say that do not study God's Word for theirselves, but just believe whatever their false preachers tell them, hook, line, and sinker.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

That above is Lord Jesus Who said that!

Isa 2:22
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
KJV

 

[Enoch111]

There is a major difference between the idea of a 'rapture' verses the idea of a 'pre-tribulational rapture'.

There is no need to complicate things. The Rapture is in fact a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture.

 

[Davy]

There is no need to complicate things. The Rapture is in fact a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection/Rapture.

Saying such things as that while pointing to the Scripture Evidence I posted from Lord Jesus' Own Words reveals how grossly deceived you are. ARGUE against HIM if you don't believe His coming is AFTER the tribulation LIKE HE SAID THERE. But don't try stupid antics as if I am complicating things! If what He said there is causing YOU complications because of the pre-trib lies you have accepted, you need to take that up with HIM, not me.