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The Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by shutin45, Feb 24, 2009.

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  1. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 4 2009, 01:50 AM)
    I know what I was taught but it is nothing in the order that you are saying it happens....
    Well you need to accept what scriptures says is truth and forget what you were taught, you were taught wrong.
     
  2. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 4 2009, 08:08 AM)
    QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 4 2009, 12:59 AM)
    So admitting it's Truth is out of line? I have yet to feel guilty for saying what's been shown over and over. You are out of line preaching Satan's lies to mislead people, and it doesn't work on us. As you never stop as usual. As usual, men stops at nothing.
    Who is making you feel guilty? Everything I have posted is backed by scripture here and on the the thread that was closed.When questions go unanswered or avoided...usually by cut down remarks...then I will stick with scriptures. When does 1 Cor. 3:11-15; 2 Cor. 5:10? These are speaking of rewards...rewards are not mentioned in the white throne judement. If you will notice the white throne judgement does not mention those in Christ...this is a judgement of the wicked not the saints. The Bema seat...judgement of the saints.. happens at a different time, so when does it happen in the order that you believe?So you can accuse or avoid me, or you can truthfully answer the questions. But please, try to use the fruit of the Spirit when replying. The readers can discern the difference!Thank you for your concern and I sense the love for others in your post. But I do not see your spiritual woman pregnant with child is being unfaithful to Christ...where do you get this? These people are fleeing from antichrist and they will be protected in the wilderness...read Rev.12:14..The woman is Israel, not the church! I do believe that Israel is the elect and I explained why in another thread. I do not believe that we(Gentiles) are spiritual jews.I am a child of God, Jesus Christ is my Savior and Lord, the ones being decieved do not believe in the gospel truth concerning Jesus...my faith is in what Jesus has done on the cross. My salvation is in Him and Him alone...man made doctrines can not take my salvation away. Fear is not of God, I do not fear going through the tribulation I trust in my Savior that will never leave me nor forsake me! I also trust the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me into all truth...not mans doctrine. I do not ignores the word of God...but I also do not take every doctrine that is thrown at me. Again, I am open to instruction...But! It has to be backed with scriptures! You mentioned the woman and child and your interpretation, but no scriptures.But you yourself believes in men doctrines, which is obvious some can see right through you. And no, what you say is a mixture of men's opinions with God's Words. You answered my question, and you clearly avoided Christ's Words on Matthew 24, Mark 13, and others just to try to make scriptures to fit with your men's doctrines. Did you know that scriptures can not be broken? John 10:35 - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
     
  3. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Mar 4 2009, 10:23 AM)
    Well you need to accept what scriptures says is truth and forget what you were taught, you were taught wrong.
    That is exactly what I am doing...because what I was taught is backed up with scriptures...more than one.QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 4 2009, 11:20 AM)
    But you yourself believes in men doctrines, which is obvious some can see right through you. And no, what you say is a mixture of men's opinions with God's Words. You answered my question, and you clearly avoided Christ's Words on Matthew 24, Mark 13, and others just to try to make scriptures to fit with your men's doctrines. Did you know that scriptures can not be broken? John 10:35 - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    I did not break up scriptures as you accuse me.What it boils down to is.... it doesn't matter what your parents believe. It doesn't matter what your friends believe. It doesn't matter what your church believes. It doesn't matter what anyone else believes. You are going to be judged on what you believe. Are you sure that you believe what the Bible says? Are you sure that you know what the Bible says? Are you willing to search for the greatest weight of Scriptural evidence for the various Christian doctrines, no matter where your search leads, even if it leads you to the conclusion that many of your pet beliefs are false? It can be frightening and unsettling to realize that our Christian beliefs might be wrong, but I pray that you have such a heart for God that you are willing to embark on this journey, allowing the Holy Spirit to be your guide.
     
  4. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 4 2009, 01:42 PM)
    QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 4 2009, 11:20 AM)
    But you yourself believes in men doctrines, which is obvious some can see right through you. And no, what you say is a mixture of men's opinions with God's Words. You answered my question, and you clearly avoided Christ's Words on Matthew 24, Mark 13, and others just to try to make scriptures to fit with your men's doctrines. Did you know that scriptures can not be broken? John 10:35 - If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    I did not break up scriptures as you accuse me.What it boils down to is.... it doesn't matter what your parents believe. It doesn't matter what your friends believe. It doesn't matter what your church believes. It doesn't matter what anyone else believes. You are going to be judged on what you believe. Are you sure that you believe what the Bible says? Are you sure that you know what the Bible says? Are you willing to search for the greatest weight of Scriptural evidence for the various Christian doctrines, no matter where your search leads, even if it leads you to the conclusion that many of your pet beliefs are false? It can be frightening and unsettling to realize that our Christian beliefs might be wrong, but I pray that you have such a heart for God that you are willing to embark on this journey, allowing the Holy Spirit to be your guide.What was that? I'm accusing you wrongly? You are accused rightly.QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 3 2009, 05:07 PM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=70150][/url]
    ...Yet Paul described the Corinthians as "eagerly waiting" for the Lord to return, and clearly Paul approved of their expectant attitude. The Lord's return for the Church was near enough to be eagerly anticipated back then, and therefore it is still near enough to be eagerly anticipated now. Only the pre-trib view of the Rapture allows for such a nearness of the Lord's return for us.
    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 3 2009, 09:45 PM)
    ...Only the pre-trib view of the Rapture allows for such an imminency of the Lord's return for us.
    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 3 2009, 10:00 PM)
    pre... means... before...
    May I need to repeat these verses?Straight from Lord Jesus Christ Himself.Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:Matthew 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory....Mark 13:24 - But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,Mark 13:25 - And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.Mark 13:26 - And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.John 16:33 - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.Sorry, you lose. No Pre existed.
     
  5. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    By the way Setfree I forgot to answer a question you posed ... You are correct in one thing that Christ believers do hold back sin on earth ... But your assumption they are flown out of the way is a fallacy that is not written. What is written is they stop worshipping the true Christ and commit spiritual adultery by following the fake christ ... And the Whole world follows after the beast (Satan, Antichrist) ..Why do many Christians follow the wrong christ and believe a lie.. Because of people who follow this Rapture lie of men who think they do not have to understand Gods Words read his warnings ... because they are flying to never never land .... they will come under a delusion allowed by God ..they will be deceived by the fake ..why because they did not love the truth but loved a lie.... ... So it is written ......
     
  6. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (Christina @ Mar 4 2009, 02:34 PM)
    By the way Setfree I forgot to answer a question you posed ... You are correct in one thing that Christ believers do hold back sin on earth ... But your assumption they are flown out of the way is a fallacy that is not written. What is written is they stop worshipping the true Christ and commit spiritual adultery by following the fake christ ... And the Whole world follows after the beast (Satan, Antichrist) ..Why do many Christians follow the wrong christ and believe a lie.. Because of people who follow this Rapture lie of men who think they do not have to understand Gods Words read his warnings ... because they are flying to never never land .... they will come under a delusion allowed by God ..they will be deceived by the fake ..why because they did not love the truth but loved a lie.... ... So it is written ......
    So much information without scriptures....
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 4 2009, 01:45 PM)
    So much information without scriptures....
    LOL are you kidding me !!!!!!!!!!!!!you have got to be joking!!!!!!!! what do you think we all been giving you for weeks on thread after thread reply after reply scripture after scripture after scripture there is no flying away there is a tribulation of Antichrist a deception a delusion ...thats what the tribulation is. Im begining to really worry about you.
     
  8. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (Christina @ Mar 4 2009, 02:34 PM)
    By the way Setfree I forgot to answer a question you posed ... You are correct in one thing that Christ believers do hold back sin on earth ... But your assumption they are flown out of the way is a fallacy that is not written. What is written is they stop worshipping the true Christ and commit spiritual adultery by following the fake christ ... And the Whole world follows after the beast (Satan, Antichrist) ..Why do many Christians follow the wrong christ and believe a lie.. Because of people who follow this Rapture lie of men who think they do not have to understand Gods Words read his warnings ... because they are flying to never never land .... they will come under a delusion allowed by God ..they will be deceived by the fake ..why because they did not love the truth but loved a lie.... ... So it is written ......
    I was speaking of this post...where is your scripture to back up your belief?You did answer that question...you said it was God/michael. The question you did not answer is ..when does the Bema seat take place? When will the saints receive their reward?My assumption is not a flying away.. but gathering together. You also believe in flying away...you just believe it is post-trib. At some point we will meet Christ in the air!!!This is the rapture/gathering together!!! Again never..never land is not where we are gathered...don't know where you get that!
     
  9. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 4 2009, 06:44 PM)
    QUOTE (Christina @ Mar 4 2009, 02:34 PM)
    By the way Setfree I forgot to answer a question you posed ... You are correct in one thing that Christ believers do hold back sin on earth ... But your assumption they are flown out of the way is a fallacy that is not written. What is written is they stop worshipping the true Christ and commit spiritual adultery by following the fake christ ... And the Whole world follows after the beast (Satan, Antichrist) ..Why do many Christians follow the wrong christ and believe a lie.. Because of people who follow this Rapture lie of men who think they do not have to understand Gods Words read his warnings ... because they are flying to never never land .... they will come under a delusion allowed by God ..they will be deceived by the fake ..why because they did not love the truth but loved a lie.... ... So it is written ......
    I was speaking of this post...where is your scripture to back up your belief?You did answer that question...you said it was God/michael. The question you did not answer is ..when does the Bema seat take place? When will the saints receive their reward?My assumption is not a flying away.. but gathering together. You also believe in flying away...you just believe it is post-trib. At some point we will meet Christ in the air!!!This is the rapture/gathering together!!! Again never..never land is not where we are gathered...don't know where you get that!WOW, setfree, you are great at twisting people's words....even Christ. That's a shame really. No, Christina does not believe she will fly away unlike the Rapture people does. Rapture doctrine is people is to magically "fly away" to Heaven. Christina will have her heart filled with joy to be forsaken by the Anti-Christ and wait for the true Christ. She rather wants to stay on Earth.Ezekiel 13:20 - Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.Another thing, when Christina say's "because they are flying to never never land"... guess what... that's what God means He says in Ezekiel 13:20. Setfree, you are into for a very rude awakening. But hey, you seem more comfortable with fairy tales anyway. That's fine by me.
     
  10. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 4 2009, 07:34 PM)
    I was speaking of this post...where is your scripture to back up your belief?You did answer that question...you said it was God/michael. The question you did not answer is ..when does the Bema seat take place? When will the saints receive their reward?My assumption is not a flying away.. but gathering together. You also believe in flying away...you just believe it is post-trib. At some point we will meet Christ in the air!!!This is the rapture/gathering together!!! Again never..never land is not where we are gathered...don't know where you get that!WOW, setfree, you are great at twisting people's words....even Christ. That's a shame really. No, Christina does not believe she will fly away unlike the Rapture people does. Rapture doctrine is people is to magically "fly away" to Heaven. Christina will have her heart filled with joy to be forsaken by the Anti-Christ and wait for the true Christ. She rather wants to stay on Earth.Ezekiel 13:20 - Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.Another thing, when Christina say's "because they are flying to never never land"... guess what... that's what God means He says in Ezekiel 13:20. Setfree, you are into for a very rude awakening. But hey, you seem more comfortable with fairy tales anyway. That's fine by me.
    As usually you mis read my post and add to it...As far as Ezekiel goes...your interpretation in not correct! When I said that Chris believed in it as well (fly away)it is because she referred it..as if I called it fly away. Whether you believe the gathering up/rapture is pre-mid-post...you believe at one time or another a rapture/gathering up/snatching away will happen.Jordan....I have responded for the last time to your post...because all you do is make accusation. I waste my time trying to defend myself and untwist everything you write. Again, I forgive you for all you have said and accused, but I believe our conversations are not productive at all."If anyone does not love the Lord--a curse be on him. Come, O Lord!" (1 Corinthians 16:22) Like the majority of the New Testament, the book of 1 Corinthians was written in Greek. It was written by the apostle Paul to the Greek-speaking Christians in Corinth, but the prayer, "Come, O Lord" (Maranatha) in the above verse was written in Aramaic. Consider that many English-speaking Christians know that "Jehovah" is one of the names of God, even though "Jehovah" is essentially a Hebrew word rather than an English word. We know what "Jehovah" means because we have heard it many times. In a similar way, the apostle Paul used the Aramaic expression "Maranatha" in his letter to the Greek-speaking church at Corinth because the Corinthians knew what this expression meant. Paul did not explain what he meant when he used this Aramaic expression, which indicates that it was possibly a common expression among the Jewish Christians and it became commonly-used (in the original Aramaic language) among the Greek-speaking Christians as well. Notice that if the Lord will not return and Rapture the Church until years after the Antichrist is revealed (as the post-trib and mid-trib views teach), then there was no reason for the first-century Christians to seek the Lord's return by praying "Come, O Lord." Yet this Aramaic prayer (Maranatha) was so common back then that even the Christians in Corinth (who spoke Greek) knew what this Aramaic prayer meant. In fact, even many English-speaking Christians today know what this Aramaic prayer means, because we have heard it often enough! Notice that the only reason to be persistently praying for the Lord's return is if there is a very real possibility that this prayer might be answered at any time, and only the pre-trib view of the Rapture allows for the Lord to return for us at any moment.
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    What are you talking about setfree ..... My scripture for what ... That we do not fly away .... What do you think I been saying for years.... scripture that a fake comes first .... Im beeen giving you scripture for years read 2 thess. There is no differeance between our gathering and the second coming .... thats in your head you are making a a division that isnt written there is one gathering together when Christ comes thats the point there no other gathering written I cannot prove or disprove what you have made up ... And as Jordan says I do not believe that language supports any flying away I believe the language says we will be changed into our New bodies and meet Christ in the spirit ..... But I dont have any major problems with a post trib. as it doesnt lead people into the Arms of Satan they know they will be here during the tribulation ....So prepare with their spirtual armor ... Pre trib on the other hand leads one into Satan arms and leads Gods children astray ....PS I havent forgotten the Bema seat just already covered it.... Your memory seems to be the major problem http://www.christianityboard.com/index.php...mp;hl=Bema+seat
     
  12. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 3 2009, 10:45 PM)
    Maybe you can explain when this is going to take place...(1 Corinthians 3:11-15) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus ChristNow if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.(2 Corinthians 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
    Your article does not cover these scriptures????????
     
  13. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (Christina @ Mar 5 2009, 01:01 PM)
    Pre trib on the other hand leads one into Satan arms and leads Gods children astray ....
    Again..pretrib does not send me into the arms of satan...and it does not lead me astray...It gives me an anticipation of His return...A desire to learn more about Him...to serve him...to share him...to praise him. I do not have any trouble with people that believe post trib. I do have a problem with the teaching...IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE PRETRIB YOU WILL BE DECEIVED....that is a false doctrine. The delusion is on those that do not believe on Christ as there savior....not the pre/mid/post trib. view.
     
  14. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 5 2009, 02:32 PM)
    QUOTE (Christina @ Mar 5 2009, 01:01 PM)
    ...Pre trib on the other hand leads one into Satan arms and leads Gods children astray ....
    Again..pretrib does not send me into the arms of satan...and it does not lead me astray...It gives me an anticipation of His return...A desire to learn more about Him...to serve him...to share him...to praise him. I do not have any trouble with people that believe post trib. I do have a problem with the teaching...IF YOU BELIEVE IN THE PRETRIB YOU WILL BE DECEIVED....that is a false doctrine. The delusion is on those that do not believe on Christ as there savior....not the pre/mid/post trib. view.People like you will just keep going without understanding and/or realize don't know what they are doing. Makes me realize of these verse. (Matthew 15:14) Obviously you don't know what you are doing and talking about. but I know your response would be. So don't bother. Even the Devil believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, but they will tremble and fall. (James 2:19)
     
  15. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." (Philippians 3:20-21) Once again the apostle Paul described first-century Christians (including himself) as eagerly awaiting the Lord's return, and Paul said that our lowly bodies will be transformed to be like the Lord's glorious body. This is the event which Christians often refer to as "the Rapture," as we can see by comparing the above passage with 1 Corinthians 15:51-53: "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) So in Philippians 3:20-21 (above) Paul described the Rapture, when the Lord will return for us and transform us from mortality to immortality, and Paul described the first-century Christians as eagerly awaiting this return of the Lord. Some Christians feel that Jesus might not return for hundreds or thousands of years, which essentially gives them no reason to be "eagerly awaiting" the Lord's return. In a similar way, the mid-trib and post-trib views teach that the Lord will not return and Rapture us until years after the Antichrist signs a treaty with Israel. There is no real evidence that the Antichrist is about to sign this treaty with Israel, and therefore (according to the mid-trib and post-trib views) the Rapture of the Church is always many years away, up until the moment when that treaty is signed. So the practical effect of the mid-trib and post-trib views is that there is no reason to be "eagerly awaiting" the Lord's return until after the Antichrist signs a treaty with Israel. The pre-trib view is the only view which allows for the Lord to return and Rapture us at any moment, and the practical effect of the pre-trib view is that Christians can and should be "eagerly awaiting" this return of the Lord, just as Paul described in Philippians 3:20-21 (above). The Greek expression that Paul used for "eagerly awaiting" is actually made up of two Greek words which together have the meaning of "intense expectation" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.210). This "intense expectation" of the Lord's return for us can only realistically be experienced with the pre-trib view of the Rapture. For example, kids usually love birthday parties, but a month after their birthday they are not "intensely expecting" their next birthday party. But when their next birthday is just a few days away, that's when they are "intensely expecting" their birthday party. It's the nearness of the event which causes us to have that "intense expectation" of it, and the pre-trib view is the only view of the Rapture which says that the Lord's return for us is always "near" or "imminent" or "at hand."
     
  16. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Last trump setfree, last trump. not some any moment trump. [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] Your article obviously doesn't approve anything, but fallacy of men. We prove that many times. Even Christ prove you wrong.
     
  17. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Setfreeso what is all I can say about your verse's ...the Bema seat study does address them in particular it address the subjest ..It doesnt answer your false reading/conconclusion of the scripture. Because it doesnt say what you want to read into themThey say we are judged and so we are but not after any Pre -trib Rapturethat doesnt exist ... There's no special judgement there is no third coming there is no seperate gathering no matter what scripture you give it doesnt apply to a thing that is not written in the first place ....You are proving nothing .... ITS A THEROY I didnt say that its the offical explanation ... A theroy just like Evolution can not be proved once something is proven it is no longer a theroy .....Pre trib Rapture is a Theroy of men ....No man has ever proved it in scripture all they can say is it could mean this ...but then you have to ignore the scripture saying it does not happen that way... DO YOU NOT GET YOU CAN NEVER PROVE IT.....All you can do is believe mens Theroy and think God is wrong with his verse's that tell you differnt ....So believe it but stop trying to find things in scripture that support what never was there. You are taking everthing out of context reading what you want to see ..... Same as evolution no proof exists ...all you are doing is guessing ..making assuptions .. I repeat No apostel ever taught it .... God never said it ...they didnt deal in THEROYS If you chose to fine but stop with the scripture twisting to make it say what you want ...Why do you presist in trying to make us believe what isnt there ...if you choose to believe a lie why do you care what we think ..WE WILL NEVER BELIEVE A LIE OF MEN NEVER NEVER .. You on the other can believe what you like And the fact you are anticipating the coming of a false christ will lead you into Satan arms whether you believe it or not .... You are plain and simple following men and their THEROYS ...not your father. And if you think that wont get you judged you are wrong ....
     
  18. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    Christina your article says there will be no rewards...it contradicts 1 Cor. 3:11-15; 2 Cor. 5:10..................They are not the same judgements. Thess. mentions dead IN CHRIST......Rev. just says DEAD (not in Christ) there is a difference!
     
  19. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    "Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near." (Philippians 4:4-5) When the Greek word for "near" (above) is used in terms of time, it means "The time is near" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.496). Once again the apostle Paul was emphasizing the nearness of the Lord's return, and he was using that imminency as an encouragement for proper Christian behavior. In other words, we should always be watchful and ready and living our lives as if the Lord might come and get us at any moment, and this watchful, expectant attitude is only possible with the pre-trib view of the Rapture. "for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10) Here the apostle Paul said that the Thessalonian Christians had turned away from idols and were serving God and waiting for Jesus to return. Once again we see first-century Christians with that same attitude of expectantly waiting for the Lord to return for the Church, as if He might come for them at any moment. Notice that the Thessalonian Christians were expectantly awaiting the return of the Lord (as in the pre-trib view) rather than trying to brace themselves for the terrible Tribulation period (as in the mid-trib or post-trib views). They were waiting for the true Christ, not the Antichrist, and the pre-trib view is the only view of the Rapture which creates this attitude of expectant waiting for the imminent return of the Lord.
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Whatever you think you see fine by me it was all written 2000 years ago so soon is subjective ....Ill wait for the true Christ if you want to ignor the facts written about this time your choice ..... Its still just a theroy. My Bible tells me its at the 7th trump is Christ's return... 2 Thess. says after the man of Sin these are Gods Wirds reguardless of how twist scipture.I closing this thread anyone can open another if they have questions on this topic
     
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