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The Rapture

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by shutin45, Feb 24, 2009.

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  1. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 27 2009, 10:34 AM)
    All the rest of them were to ridiculous to give an answer to. The fact that you put some of them on your list meanss you are already to indoctrinated to listen to anyone anyway. for instance..... When you read this we are already knee deep into the tribulation when we are told to look up for our redemption draws near.Luke 2116 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.19 In your patience possess ye your souls.20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. You see when the Tribulation has started and these thing that will not happen until we are deep into the tribulation begin to take place, THEN and only then do we know our redemption is drawing near. It is impossible for anyone to get a pretrib view from this. So like I said for this verse to be on your list just shows how far off you really are.
    No it says when it begins to happen...what did he mention at the beginning of these scriptures...they are already happening!All the rest of them were to ridiculous to give an answer to. The fact that you put some of them on your list meanss you are already to indoctrinated to listen to anyone anyway. for instance.....Just an excuse....because you can not reply!Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) Notice that once again Paul described his first-century readers as eagerly waiting for the Lord to come back for them (and staying strong until the end). With the various mid-trib views of the Rapture, this eager anticipation is not realistic until the Antichrist desecrates the Jewish temple at the mid-point of the Tribulation, and this eager anticipation is not realistic for the post-trib view until near the end of the Tribulation. Yet Paul described the Corinthians as "eagerly waiting" for the Lord to return, and clearly Paul approved of their expectant attitude. The Lord's return for the Church was near enough to be eagerly anticipated back then, and therefore it is still near enough to be eagerly anticipated now. Only the pre-trib view of the Rapture allows for such a nearness of the Lord's return for us.
     
  2. watchman

    watchman New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 27 2009, 12:05 AM)
    Well...until these can be answered with scripture...I will have to believe in the rapture.1. We are promised...I will also keep thee from [/b]the hour of temptation. (Rev. 3:10) We get the word exit from this Greek word! Ek: 1537 ejk Ek (ek); Word Origin: Greek, Preposition a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause out of, from, by, away from So where are we exiting too?2. We are not the object of God's wrath. (Rev. 6:16; 1 Thess. 5:9; Luke 21:36) If we are the body of Christ, why would he do harm to himself (Eph. 5:29; 32)3. We are to Escape (not endure) the trib.(Luke 21:36) How are we going to escape?4. Scripture tells us to look up( not out) for our redemption. (Luke 21:28)5. When war comes...the ambassadors are called home...We are Christ ambassadors (2 Cor. 5:20)6. Restrainer in 2 Thess 2:7 has to be removed before the anti-christ comes. Who is the only one stopping the mystery of iniquity? Only God(Holy Spirit) can stop sin!7. Twinkle of eye is how we will leave...not an extended activity!8. We will leave in the air...not earth.9. Woman is Israel in Rev. 12:5 not the church! The child (Body) is caught up(harpazo) to heaven.10. Marriage supper in heaven is before Rev. 19:11-14. When He comes to make war!
    I have already addressed #s 1 and 4 I will try to address the rest as kindly as possible2. ''We are not the object of God's wrath. (Rev. 6:16; 1 Thess. 5:9; Luke 21:36) If we are the body of Christ, why would he do harm to himself (Eph. 5:29; 32)''The Tribulation is not Gods wrath the fiery destruction of the wicxked at the post trib 2nd coming is.Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.Luke 17:28-37 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.2nd Thess 1:7-87 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:2nd Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 3.''We are to Escape (not endure) the trib.(Luke 21:36) How are we going to escape?''Oh yeah???????Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:5. ''When war comes...the ambassadors are called home...We are Christ ambassadors (2 Cor. 5:20)''Irrelevent pretrib propaganda, show one scripture that says the tribulation is a war.6. ''Restrainer in 2 Thess 2:7 has to be removed before the anti-christ comes. Who is the only one stopping the mystery of iniquity? Only God(Holy Spirit) can stop sin!''The Holy Spirit is not the restrainer and God will never leave us.Hebrews 13:5b.....for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.7. ''Twinkle of eye is how we will leave...not an extended activity!''Once again irrelevant, the fact that we are changed from our natural bodies into our immortal bodies in a twinkling of an eye has no effect on when the rapture is, but because it occurs at the last trump does.1st Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.This is post trib proof not pretrib, we are raptured at the last trump which is after the tribulation.8. ''We will leave in the air...not earth.''Once again irrelevant, we do meet the Lord in the air, however this takes place at the post trib 2nd coming not before the tribulation starts.1st Thess 415 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 9. ''Woman is Israel in Rev. 12:5 not the church! The child (Body) is caught up(harpazo) to heaven.''Israel encompasses all believers in Christ and the boy child is Christ.Romans 2:28-29 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord is rich unto all that call upon his name.Romans 11:16-36 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into there own olive tree?Romans 12:5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one member one of another.Galatians 3:28-29 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.Galatians 6:15-16 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.Ephesians 2:11-19 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands.12 That at times past you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonweath of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.14 For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandment in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:17 And came and preached peace to you that were afar off, and to them that were nigh.18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.Ephesians 4:4-32 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling;5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of us all, who is above all, and through us all, and in you all.10.'' Marriage supper in heaven is before Rev. 19:11-14. When He comes to make war!''This is simply untrue, the bible never not in Revelation 19 or anywhere else say the marriage supper of the Lamb is in Heaven.
     
  3. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 27 2009, 10:24 AM)
    ...You only reply to part of my post...but ignore the ones you do not know the answers too.
    I could likely answer your questions, but I usually don't read your posts that thoroughly.
     
  4. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 26 2009, 11:38 AM)
    QUOTE (Jordan @ Feb 26 2009, 11:15 AM)
    Where does scriptures saying that some will go to the Millennium Reign with their sinful nature. I only notice that God says ALL. (I Corinthians 15:51-52) ALL means ALL and not SOME. This is just amazing... another doctrine of men! To say some is to make God a liar.
    These that enter the millennium will be saved individuals, but will have their mortal bodies....their has to be someone that populated the millennium and also someone for Christ his bride to reign over. Right?No scripture, but pure speculation of men, obviously based on opinions that can't be proved. I see. This is not a good sign as it's not the fruit of the Spirit. That's a shame.QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 26 2009, 12:20 PM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=69959][/url]
    Revelation 20 4-6 makes it clear that all who take part in the first resurrection cannot be affected by the 2nd death, yet ant the end of the millennium you see that many will turn from God and side with satan, and they will be destroyed and take part of the 2nd death. Who do you think these people are if they are not people in the millennium in there mortal bodies or with a sinful nature? Or is it you who would make God a liar?Nothing in these scripture you have given say that the marriage of the Lamb or marriage supper is in Heaven.
    True, that's why the Millennium Reign is a time of teaching. That's why Satan is loosed again (Revelation 20:3, Revelation 20:7) to deceive the nations again (Revelation 20:8-10) to those who aren't the Elects, the overcomers. To see if they would serve God or Satan. It's clear that those who overcomes is the Elects and the first resurrection... that won't be affected of the second death.
     
  5. shutin45

    shutin45 New Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Feb 26 2009, 03:15 PM)
    There are two many differences in the two coming for them to be one and the same!The scriptures that show the 2cd coming...Daniel 2:44-45;7:9-14; 12:1-3Zech. 14:1-15Matt. 13:41; 24:15-31; 26:64Mk. 13:14-27; 14:62Luke 21:25-28Acts 1:9-21; 3:19-211 Thess. 3:132 Thess. 1:6-10; 2:82 Peter 3:1-4Jude 14-15Rev. 1:7; 19:11-20:6; 22:7, 12, 20These scriptures show the raptureJn. 14:1-31 Cor. 15:1-531 Thess. 4:13-18Rom. 6:191 Cor. 1:7-8; 16:22Phil. 3:20-21Col. 3:41 thess. 1:10, 2:19; 5:9 ; 5:232 Thess. 2:1,31 Tim. 6:142 Tim. 4:1Titus 2:13Heb. 9:28James 5:7-20 Pet. 1:7, 131 Jn. 2:28-32Jude 21Rev. 2:25; 3:10Notice the difference...Rapture / 2cd coming Translation of believers / No translation of believersTranslation saints go to heaven / translated saints return to earthEarth in not judged / Earth judgedimmenent/any moment/signless / follows definite signsnot in Old Testament prophecy / Predicted in Old Test.Believers only / Affects all men on earthBefore the day of wrath / concludes day of wrathno reference to satan / Satan is bound at endComes for his own / Comes with his owncomes in air / Comes to earthHe claims his bride / Comes with his brideOnly his own see him / Every eye sees himGreat trib. begins / Millinium beginsChurch believers/ raised / The Old Test. saints not raised til after Mill. (Daniel 12)I explained this in the closed rapture thread # 32 and 34....
    Hi Setfree!I went to the rapture topic that was closed Feb. 29th "to Denver" with 127 replies. I looked at threads 32 and 34, but didn't understand how they clarified/overrode the post-trib (post anti-Christ sitting in the Temple) conclusion one is led to by II Thessalonians Chapter 2 Verses 1-4.I thought I'd just study that day....try to understand....weird stuff happened, and when I got to those Verses, it just grabbed me and hit me that it couldn't hardly be a pretrib rapture if those Verses were true.If post-trib is wrong, and we reach as many of the lost ASAP (before the deceit, lies, and wonders etc. of the anti-Christ make that harder?? ), and prepare ourselves for what we MIGHT have to go through, we'll be ready. If we think we're leaving sooner, and don't witness in haste, or otherwise prepare, we MAY have a problem. I'm going to post later 2 messages I read in Decision Magazine which were written by Billy and Franklin Graham about this issue.Just wanted to know if I was reading the right posts in the right closed topic [​IMG]Bless Y'all,Jim
     
  6. shutin45

    shutin45 New Member

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    Here are excerpts from the two messages -From Billy Graham's "Proclaiming Christ's Return" Decision Magazine February 2009:"The results of the church's neglect of the prophecies of the Bible are pathetic and tragic""I have found where churches are preaching the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, the churches are evangelistic and concerned with the social needs of the people round about them"From Franklin Graham's "Come Quickly, Lord Jesus" Decision Magazine January 2009:"Although the Bible says that certain signs will precede and accompany Jesus' glorious return, it also tells us that no one knows the day or hour when it will occur. The Scripture's emphasis is always on spiritual readiness"Are we ready?"The believer in Jesus Christ is to be eagerly watching and waiting for the return of the Savior. Like the servants in the parable of the talents, followers of Christ should be busy with the Lord's work, using their time, talents, and resources for the sake of the Kingdom. We also should be boldly sharing our faith with those who still live in spiritual darkness and death, telling them of the great joy of eternity with Christ and the great horror of eternity apart from Christ.""Above all, believers should be daily yielding to the rule and reign of the Holy Spirit, walking in holiness"The entire articles can be found at:http://www.billygraham.org/Hope y'all have a blessed weekend [​IMG] Jim
     
  7. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (shutin45 @ Feb 27 2009, 04:27 PM)
    Hi Setfree!I went to the rapture topic that was closed Feb. 29th "to Denver" with 127 replies. I looked at threads 32 and 34, but didn't understand how they clarified/overrode the post-trib (post anti-Christ sitting in the Temple) conclusion one is led to by II Thessalonians Chapter 2 Verses 1-4.I thought I'd just study that day....try to understand....weird stuff happened, and when I got to those Verses, it just grabbed me and hit me that it couldn't hardly be a pretrib rapture if those Verses were true.If post-trib is wrong, and we reach as many of the lost ASAP (before the deceit, lies, and wonders etc. of the anti-Christ make that harder?? ), and prepare ourselves for what we MIGHT have to go through, we'll be ready. If we think we're leaving sooner, and don't witness in haste, or otherwise prepare, we MAY have a problem. I'm going to post later 2 messages I read in Decision Magazine which were written by Billy and Franklin Graham about this issue.Just wanted to know if I was reading the right posts in the right closed topic [​IMG]Bless Y'all,Jim
    shutin45,Who do you believe the restrainer is in 2 Thess. 2:7? "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who not letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way"Who will be taken out of the way? So that the wicked one will be revealed...Who is the only one that can restrain evil?
     
  8. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (shutin45 @ Feb 27 2009, 04:27 PM)
    Hi Setfree!I went to the rapture topic that was closed Feb. 29th "to Denver" with 127 replies. I looked at threads 32 and 34, but didn't understand how they clarified/overrode the post-trib (post anti-Christ sitting in the Temple) conclusion one is led to by II Thessalonians Chapter 2 Verses 1-4.issue.Just wanted to know if I was reading the right posts in the right closed topic [​IMG]Bless Y'all,Jim
    Sorry it was 82 and 84!
     
  9. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Setfree Have you read the 24th chapter of Matt?Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"Christ in this chapter tells us everything that will and must happen before He returns,can you show where He mentions the rapture in this chapter?
     
  10. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (n2thelight @ Mar 3 2009, 02:02 AM)
    Setfree Have you read the 24th chapter of Matt?Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"Christ in this chapter tells us everything that will and must happen before He returns,can you show where He mentions the rapture in this chapter?
    Yes, Many times.But there are three questions asked and answered in Matt. 24...... When will the temple be destroyed? What will be the sign of Your coming? What will be the sign of the end of the age? Jesus began His reply by describing some things which are not the signs to watch for. In Matthew 24:4-6, Mark 13:6-7, and Luke 21:8-9, Jesus said that there will be false Messiahs, there will be wars, and there will be rumors of wars, but these things are not the sign of the end of the age. Next, Jesus described a world war which will be accompanied by famines and earthquakes, and He compared this to the beginning of "birth pains" when a woman goes into labor (Matthew 24:7-8, Mark 13:8, Luke 21:10-11). He said that this will be the sign that the end of the age has begun, and this was the answer to the disciples' third question.I do not think you are going to hear a lot about the rapture in the gospels...because this was part of what was kept hid since the foundation of the world...the church age/age of Grace/the body of Christ. You do not read a lot about it in the Old Testament, or the gospels. It is after Christ death that a lot of teachings about the purpose of the church is mentioned.The disciples at this time did not even understand that Jesus would be resurrected much less the age of the church/times of the Gentiles grafted in and so on....Most of what Jesus did in the gospels is fulfil the Old Testament about his coming, dying on the cross...and some about his resurrection (but they did not understand that part.) Jesus himself said that He was going to send the Holy Spirit to teach them and bring back to memory what Jesus was trying to teach them while He was walking with them....they could not understand some things yet. So, Yes I agree most of Matt. 24 is teaching about when He comes back in his wrath, and things that will happen before that. But again, he did not mention the rapture. BUT NOTICE THAT HE DOES NOT MENTION ANYTHING ABOUT A RAPTURE AT THIS TIME...THEREFORE THE POST-TRIB. VIEW IS NOT SHOWN HERE EITHER! BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THEY WILL BE TAKEN IN THE AIR AT THIS TIME(LAST OF TRIB.)...WHERE DOES IT SHOW IN MATT. 24. THAT ANY BELIEVERS WILL MEET CHRIST IN THE AIR BEFORE HE RETURNS....IF POST TRIB. VIEW IS CORRECT WHY DOESN'T HE MENTION IT HERE...WHERE THEY(POST-TRIB.) BELIEVE IT IS TO TAKE PLACE.
     
  11. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (watchman @ Feb 27 2009, 11:10 AM)
    I have already addressed #s 1 and 4 I will try to address the rest as kindly as possible2. ''We are not the object of God's wrath. (Rev. 6:16; 1 Thess. 5:9; Luke 21:36) If we are the body of Christ, why would he do harm to himself (Eph. 5:29; 32)''The Tribulation is not Gods wrath the fiery destruction of the wicxked at the post trib 2nd coming is.Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.Luke 17:28-37 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.2nd Thess 1:7-87 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:2nd Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    First I would like to say I agree that all scriptures you quoted are speaking of the time when His great wrath will be poured out...but I disagree that God's wrath is not from the very beginning of the Trib......God's wrath will begin to be poured out with the very first judgment at the beginning of the Tribulation. During Old Testament times, God sometimes used humans to execute His wrath on the rebellious nation of Israel. During the Tribulation, the Antichrist and his armies will be used by God in executing His final wrath on Israel.The Antichrist will be unleashed at the very first judgment during the Tribulation. This indicates that God's wrath will begin to be poured out at the start of the Tribulation period with the very first judgment.That said...I still believe we will be kept from his wrath...by the gathering up!
     
  12. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    Imminency.....Is another reason to believe in the rapture."Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) Paul described his first-century readers as eagerly waiting for the Lord to come back for them (and staying strong until the end). With the various mid-trib views of the Rapture, this eager anticipation is not realistic until the Antichrist desecrates the Jewish temple at the mid-point of the Tribulation, and this eager anticipation is not realistic for the post-trib view until near the end of the Tribulation. Yet Paul described the Corinthians as "eagerly waiting" for the Lord to return, and clearly Paul approved of their expectant attitude. The Lord's return for the Church was near enough to be eagerly anticipated back then, and therefore it is still near enough to be eagerly anticipated now. Only the pre-trib view of the Rapture allows for such a nearness of the Lord's return for us.
     
  13. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 3 2009, 05:07 PM)
    Imminency.....Is another reason to believe in the rapture."Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) Paul described his first-century readers as eagerly waiting for the Lord to come back for them (and staying strong until the end). With the various mid-trib views of the Rapture, this eager anticipation is not realistic until the Antichrist desecrates the Jewish temple at the mid-point of the Tribulation, and this eager anticipation is not realistic for the post-trib view until near the end of the Tribulation. Yet Paul described the Corinthians as "eagerly waiting" for the Lord to return, and clearly Paul approved of their expectant attitude. The Lord's return for the Church was near enough to be eagerly anticipated back then, and therefore it is still near enough to be eagerly anticipated now. Only the pre-trib view of the Rapture allows for such a nearness of the Lord's return for us.
    Good idea setfree. [​IMG] ...NOT! [​IMG] [​IMG] Another good idea to believe in the Rapture is to believe in men! Men with lack of faith, or no faith and can could careless what our Father says... so decided God is a liar. I see. Don't mind me, I am just observing every word you say... It's still clearly not of the fruit of the Spirit. Didn't God say to have Faith in Him and not men? (Hebrews 11:6)Setfree, before you make a misleading comment about me, let me ask you a question. What does the prefix PRE means?
     
  14. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Setfree Please stop trying to mislead people into a doctrine you yourself dont even know if you believe ... You can present no proof because there is none ... If you put all that effort you have into hearing your Father instead of trying to make the Word fit what you want it to say you would you not be stuck as you have been stuck for years. still searching still trying to make it work ... What is not there can not be made to be there because you want it to be ... Im sure you have read every article there is on this subject. God will watch over his own his way...Why is it so difficult for you to have enough faith to trust him without believing what men say ?? I have shown you in the Word that the tribulation is not what we have been told. Can you not see men must keep the fear factor on the front burner to keep preaching this lie .... Its their money cow .... the tribulation is not about fear ... Its about who knows their Father well enough not be fooled ..trying to find an escape invented by men will not save you it will condem you ... The ministery for the most part is controlled by the big boys ..Its a business ...most ministers are forced to go along ...many are put in the position of teaching Rature or not being able to preach ...They chose to comprimise to be able to preach at all .... Im old enough to remember when there was no conscenous about Rapture it was not a common doctrine eveyone taught a differnt thing as they saw it . But thats not good business to have opposing views and ministers arguing so the hammer was lowered ... Its not Even taught outside America except where Americans have taken it ....Its about Money not about Gods Word ...
     
  15. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    I believe I have shown scripture for everything I have posted.My faith is in His word....."My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." (1 Corinthians 4:4-5) Beginning in 1 Corinthians 3:8 and continuing to the passage above, Paul spoke about the judgment seat of Christ, This takes place soon after the Rapture. This judgment is not for the purpose of salvation (because everyone who is Raptured will already be saved), but instead it is for the purpose of judging our earthly deeds and giving us rewards. So the context refers to the judgment seat of Christ at the time of the Rapture, and once again we see Paul telling the Corinthians to wait until the Lord comes back for them. The Lord's return for the Church was near enough to be anticipated back then, and therefore it is still near enough to be anticipated now. Only the pre-trib view of the Rapture allows for such an imminency of the Lord's return for us.
     
  16. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 3 2009, 09:45 PM)
    I believe I have shown scripture for everything I have posted.My faith is in His word....."My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." (1 Corinthians 4:4-5) Beginning in 1 Corinthians 3:8 and continuing to the passage above, Paul spoke about the judgment seat of Christ, This takes place soon after the Rapture. This judgment is not for the purpose of salvation (because everyone who is Raptured will already be saved), but instead it is for the purpose of judging our earthly deeds and giving us rewards. So the context refers to the judgment seat of Christ at the time of the Rapture, and once again we see Paul telling the Corinthians to wait until the Lord comes back for them. The Lord's return for the Church was near enough to be anticipated back then, and therefore it is still near enough to be anticipated now. Only the pre-trib view of the Rapture allows for such an imminency of the Lord's return for us.
    You never answered my question. I will ask you once again. What does the prefix PRE means?
     
  17. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    pre... means... before"What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away." (1 Corinthians 7:29-31) Here Paul explicitly said that the time was short, and he urged his first-century readers to live as if the end was near. Only the pre-trib view of the Rapture allows for such a nearness of the Lord's return for us.
     
  18. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 3 2009, 10:00 PM)
    pre... means... before...
    Straight from Lord Jesus Christ Himself.Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:Matthew 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory....Mark 13:24 - But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,Mark 13:25 - And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.Mark 13:26 - And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.Sorry, you lose. No Pre existed.
     
  19. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    There is no Judgement until The Lords Day after the millieuim the first resurrected overcomers and Elect are judged not subject to the second death the last is the white Throne Judgement after the millieum!! Not the Rapture as there is No Rapture No flying away to anywhere. And you can not present scripture that doesnt exist you can only misinterpt what it says You are either and overcomer/Elect that make it to the End or you are judged after the millieum NO mid point judgement ....No secret coming ...a first and second ... period Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away: and there was found no place for them." Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Notice there are two sets of books here. The first called "The Books" is to judge the unsaved. The second is the "Book of Life" where only the names of the saved are recorded. The saved have had their sins removed from God's judgment and booted out. Though they were committed, the blood of Christ has covered them from being used against us. Notice how all souls are judged "according to their works". Does it talk about faith here after the Millennium? No. The "great white throne judgment" will not take faith into consideration. The first resurrection takes faith into consideration. That was back on "the Lord's day". That was Jesus Christ's "great day". On the last day of the Millennium age souls are judged by works
     
  20. setfree

    setfree New Member

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    QUOTE (Jordan @ Mar 3 2009, 10:17 PM)
    Straight from Lord Jesus Christ Himself.Matthew 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:Matthew 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory....Mark 13:24 - But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,Mark 13:25 - And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.Mark 13:26 - And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.Sorry, you lose. No Pre existed.
    Every scripture you listed is speaking of the second coming of Christ...not the gathering together! There is a difference.....So yes these things will happen before the second coming...I explained and agreed to all these scriptures speaking of the second coming...but the rapture is not the second coming!QUOTE (Christina @ Mar 3 2009, 10:31 PM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=70184][/url]
    There is no Judgement until The Lords Day after the millieuim the first resurrected overcomers and Elect are judged not subject to the second death the last is the white Throne Judgement after the millieum!! Not the Rapture as there is No Rapture No flying away to anywhere. And you can not present scripture that doesnt exist you can only misinterpt what it says You are either and overcomer/Elect that make it to the End or you are judged after the millieum NO mid point judgement ....No secret coming ...a first and second ... period Revelation 20:11 "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away: and there was found no place for them." Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Notice there are two sets of books here. The first called "The Books" is to judge the unsaved. The second is the "Book of Life" where only the names of the saved are recorded. The saved have had their sins removed from God's judgment and booted out. Though they were committed, the blood of Christ has covered them from being used against us. Notice how all souls are judged "according to their works". Does it talk about faith here after the Millennium? No. The "great white throne judgment" will not take faith into consideration. The first resurrection takes faith into consideration. That was back on "the Lord's day". That was Jesus Christ's "great day". On the last day of the Millennium age souls are judged by works
    Maybe you can explain when this is going to take place...(1 Corinthians 3:11-15) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus ChristNow if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.(2 Corinthians 5:10) For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
     
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