The Restrainer

[Lady Crosstalk]

What are those prophecies to which you refer?

Ezekiel chapters 37 through 48 give a VERY detailed picture of the Millennial Kingdom. Isaiah 65 does as well. All of the OT prophets spoke of a time when Israel would finally be granted the Kingdom under the Messiah. Jesus' disciples even ask Him, just before His ascension in Acts, if He would now restore the Kingdom to Israel. He tells them that those dates are determined by the father (see Acts 1:6) and redirects them to the large immediate task at hand--telling the world about Him.

 

[Phoneman777]

No way I will defend Jesuits. But to claim they originated pre-tribulation is just a flat out lie.

Whose claiming the Jesuits originated the pre-trib rapture when EVERYONE knows that was Darby?

What you refuse to accept is a matter of history: that the Jesuits are responsible for the modern teaching of a soon coming Antichrist man that will capture the attention of the entire world, and how marvelous a deception it must be to have convinced almost the entire Christian world.

If there's one thing the Bible teaches, it's that the crowd has never been right. In Noah's day the crowd drowned. In Joshua and Caleb's day, the crowd died in the desert. In Samuel's day, the crowd found out only too late what a bad idea it was to demand a king. In Jesus' day, the crowd crucified Him.

 

[Phoneman777]

No you won't. I don't believe you.

Openly stating support for Ellen G White and holding her claims is supporting her.

Such as a sanctuary judgement. Not the Bible and her invention.

LOL, you are exposed as a fraud - or else post the evidence and collect the money.

 

[CoreIssue]

No surprise here, this is what I have been told and have come to believe. Satan will come on the platform of "The Messiah" . Notice the "two" White horses in Rev. 6 and 19?

"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals and I heard as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering and to conquer.” (Rev.6:12)

“And I saw heaven opened and behold a white horse: and he that sat upon him was called faithful and true, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. It’s eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns: and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth giveth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. (Rev.19:11-16).

Satan comes as the Dragon.

The Antichrist is a man

Revelation 16:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

The Dragon inhabits the AOD which is called the Dragon.

So, since the AC and the false prophet are possessed by demons, it is clear you say is not Satan.


Revelation 13
18 This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man That number is 666.

 

[Phoneman777]

Ezekiel chapters 37 through 48 give a VERY detailed picture of the Millennial Kingdom. Isaiah 65 does as well. All of the OT prophets spoke of a time when Israel would finally be granted the Kingdom under the Messiah. Jesus' disciples even ask Him, just before His ascension in Acts, if He would now restore the Kingdom to Israel. He tells them that those dates are determined by the father (see Acts 1:6) and redirects them to the large immediate task at hand--telling the world about Him.

All of those prophecies are not pertaining to the Milliennial Kingdom. Some of them refer to the post-thousand year New Heaven and Earth, which is only then when "the lamb and the lion will lie down together". During the 1,000 years, the Earth is desolate, according to Ezekiel, Isaiah, Peter, etc.

 

[Phoneman777]

The Antichrist is a man

Says who?

 

[brakelite]

Then it will be revived and re-established

So there will be a new heavens and a new earth, twice?

Also, Isaiah 65 is a wonderful picture of the Millennial Kingdom.

But it doesn't say millennial kingdom LC does it? Isa 65 from verse 17 on refers to the new heavens and the new earth...the Jerusalem referred to there sounds to me like the new Jerusalem and the people therein all God's people...and all God's people shall honour the Sabbath. (Isa 66:22,23)

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

All of those prophecies are not pertaining to the Milliennial Kingdom. Some of them refer to the post-thousand year New Heaven and Earth, which is only then when "the lamb and the lion will lie down together". During the 1,000 years, the Earth is desolate, according to Ezekiel, Isaiah, Peter, etc.

No. And there is one bit of proof that it is a picture of the Millennial Kingdom. All humans will be resurrected by the end of the Millennium--as the Book of Daniel says, "some to everlasting life and some to everlasting shame". The Millennial Kingdom will be a mortal kingdom comprised of the survivors of the Tribulation--both Israel and the Gentile nations. The proof is that it speaks of the "Prince" (a sub-king under the Lord Jesus, King of Kings) who has sons. Jesus has already told us that in the resurrection, no one will marry. Since it is unthinkable that someone would have "sons" without marriage, we are pretty well forced to conclude that the kingdom pictured in Ezekiel is a mortal kingdom. It will be the fulfillment of all the OT prophecies. It will fail too, of course, as new generations are born and fall under the sway of Satan who is released for a short time to "deceive the nations" once again.

 

[CoreIssue]

Whose claiming the Jesuits originated the pre-trib rapture when EVERYONE knows that was Darby?

What you refuse to accept is a matter of history: that the Jesuits are responsible for the modern teaching of a soon coming Antichrist man that will capture the attention of the entire world, and how marvelous a deception it must be to have convinced almost the entire Christian world.

If there's one thing the Bible teaches, it's that the crowd has never been right. In Noah's day the crowd drowned. In Joshua and Caleb's day, the crowd died in the desert. In Samuel's day, the crowd found out only too late what a bad idea it was to demand a king. In Jesus' day, the crowd crucified Him.

How many times do we have to cover this? Pre-tribulation did not originate with Darby.

Read the attached file.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

So there will be a new heavens and a new earth, twice?

I would say that the Millennial Kingdom will be in a rebuilt and restored world. That worldwide Kingdom (a mostly mortal Kingdom, by the way) will be destroyed by fire from heaven as the final rebellious generation gathers around "the camp of God". After the Final Judgment (which comes at the end of the Millennium) God's resurrected people will arrive in the Heavenly Jerusalem on a new earth under a new heaven--

But it doesn't say millennial kingdom LC does it? Isa 65 from verse 17 on refers to the new heavens and the new earth...the Jerusalem referred to there sounds to me like the new Jerusalem and the people therein all God's people...and all God's people shall honour the Sabbath. (Isa 66:22,23)[/QUOTE]

It doesn't need to--all of the OT prophets spoke of the same thing--the promised restoration of the Kingdom of Israel. Jesus will rule that Kingdom through His proxy, David (there are OT prophecies stating that God will raise up David for them--I'll look them up for you tomorrow if you wish but I am going to bed right now). You should have read further in Isaiah 66, it speaks of dead bodies of the wicked. There will be no more death or even the place of the dead in the eternal state.

 

[CoreIssue]

Yes--the Arab slave trade never really ended. N. Africans (light-skinned Arabs for the most part) enslave black Africans. I believe that is why the Book of Revelation speaks of slavery ("the bodies and souls of men"). I'm told that Arabs are quite prejudiced toward African blacks--even when the blacks are their fellow Muslims.

African Blacks sold African Blacks into slavery and enslaved others for their own use. Still do today in some areas.

 

[CoreIssue]

It doesn't need to--all of the OT prophets spoke of the same thing--the promised restoration of the Kingdom of Israel. Jesus will rule that Kingdom through His proxy, David (there are OT prophecies stating that God will raise up David for them--I'll look them up for you tomorrow if you wish but I am going to bed right now). You should have read further in Isaiah 66, it speaks of dead bodies of the wicked. There will be no more death or even the place of the dead in the eternal state.

Actually, Jesus will sit on the throne of David and rule.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

African Blacks sold African Blacks into slavery and enslaved others for their own use. Still do today in some areas.

True.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Actually, Jesus will sit on the throne of David and rule.

Yes--technically He does as the King of Kings (the title of an Emperor in ancient times). But, like any empire, there will be princes and kings subordinate to the Emperor.

 

[CoreIssue]

Yes--technically He does as the King of Kings (the title of an Emperor in ancient times). But, like any empire, there will be princes and kings subordinate to the Emperor.

That to puzzle me until I learned to speak of a descendent ruling on the throne of an ancestor was to say the ancestor was ruling.

Yes, there will be others assisting a government, the Bible identifies them as the 144,000, resurrected martyrs of the tribulation and the bride of Christ.

It takes a lot of people to run the planet politically and religiously.

 

[Naomi25]

We could look at the dark ages when in Europe under papal domination education and enlightenment was at an all time low... Yet in the East it was the Arab and Greek orthodox nations that were flourishing with advances in art, literature, poetry, architecture and science. When Catholicism entered South America the poverty and decline of those nations accelerated, and remain to this day, while in Protestant nations such as the US and Australia, NZ, and Britain and Germany etc, they flourished as they extricated themselves from Papal darkness. So for me, the evidence in reality actually indicates the opposite of what earburner is suggesting. As people came to a knowledge of God, enlightenment came with it... Both in understanding of scripture and in science and education. When Daniel said that in the last days knowledge shall increase, I am not convinced that the holy Spirit was warning us that this was an evil thing from Satan that we should beware of. No doubt advances in technology have been used for....

I agree. Technology is just a tool...like any other tool humanity has been given by God or come up with with the intelligence he gave us. Be it the wheel, the work cart, the ability to make steel. Mankind can either choose to use it for good (food production, health, education, forwarding of the gospel etc) or we can use it for evil (war machines, weapons, propagating hate, etc). I'm sure Satan encourages us to use it for one rather than the other, but at the root of it all, the base tools themselves are not evil, and I can't see that we should look at them in such a light.

 

[Naomi25]

ok Naomi--which btw always loved that name i know there's at least one in the Bible, and i cant recall what her story is, dangit--so are you asking me to bring the sorrow at that "excitement" up there, do you really want to...change your mind about those vv, and lose another doubting thomas? Bc you are a strong willed woman ok, and i dunno if you and i should be getting into it about "Big Emo" or expectations, or menstruations either? Bc i dunno how yet, but that black is going to start...turning gray right away see, when i um make something appear that we did not even see before, and it's just going to get lighter and lighteri guess yeh?
who is "we" there, Naomi? This is not a rhetorical Q, i need to know who you are speaking for there is all, am i in that we Bc if so then ha, see. Isn't "the fact" more like as soon as a single one of "us" is revealed to be doing that, your fact becomes a lie?
so then many will cry LordLord et al, i know you're going to get infested with wolves as soon as i leave, you make them twice the sons of hell you are, these are all just bogus, or what? See i mean those too are Biblical teachings right? So what does that do to your belief up there? How does that change that belief, what i just Quoted. Again, this is not a rhetorical Q, if we are having a convo i need a reply to that. That is how to do this is that imo.
ok again with the "we," but i'll assume the answer you give me for the we above will be the same we, ...um, all those ppl you believe will be with you, let's say? The Testifiers of Themselves? Which an aside here if you believe Scripture at few there are then assuming you are acquainted with roughly a million ppl, you will be acquainted with approx one of the other "we" right, one, but anyway i think it's clear enough that...i have no idea about Christ's second advent, particularly for anyone else, i bet prolly some ppl can literally see spirits with two eyes even, and i notice that i am directed to see with one eye but as soon as i do that then the next time i see it just fine with two eyes, it was just something i didn't recognize before, it was right there beside me the whole time, in my walk, but it just suddenly appeared!

Nice to be talking about Christ for a change though, being as how i surely hate Him no less than anyone else does, i only do that for like an hour a week or so myself. Jesus tho, give me some Jesus, i can just wait for Jesus lol.
Ppl like to wait for stuff, right
Swear to God, i still take pride in learning the most inconsequential yack lol, why does learning a fact give me so much satisfaction i wonder. I'm gonna be useless over the Doubting Thomas thing for like the next six months if i'm not careful lol. Prolly useless now i guess

so, I see another tag from you up there, but let's pause that one for now if we could ok, until "we" get some of this clarified, Bc that is predicated on this, iow descending into English for a moment i really dont think you want me turning the vv in that next post white to black yet, do you?

I mean no offense here ok, your AT of going up to heaven after you have literally died to become an immortal is...serving you right now, see, that is where you spend your hour a week, what interest do you have really in jumping or even falling off a cliff now, Naomi? Bc wadr that is what knowing for a fact that we do not yet know is going to do i guess, ok. Pitcher yourself going into your current cong as if they were...n Korea or something, behind enemy lines, no friends, no rep, can't sing When we all get to heaven, i mean do you really want that? No.

More pertinent to here though i guess is could you even accept that as a possibility? Iow can you say to me right now that when we are done with this um convo if your mind were to change and all that stuff after "pitcher" up there were to somehow happen, that would be ok with you?

I honestly have on idea what you're talking about. Any of this. And believe me, I tried...read it several times.
Is there ANYONE on this forum who can translate bbryd for me? I sometimes THINK we could have good conversations, but I simply cannot make head nor tails of what he is on about.
Sorry bbryd...but, I'm not going to answer. It seems to me that when I try my best to guess what you're on about, that's when we end up in frustrated aggravation back and forth with one another. Probably best to skip that, yeah??

 

[Naomi25]

Actually, what Dispensationalist do is take a numerically specific time prophecy quantified by a starting/ending period of 490 years and insert a gap which changes the fixed duration of "490" to "490 plus 2,000 and counting" while still insisting it's only 490.

Imagine working for "Dispensationalism Unlimited, LLC" and returning from your noon lunch break at 5 and when your boss asks where the flip do you get off taking a 5 hour lunch, you tell him, "oh, I forgot to tell you, there's a "4 hour gap" between 12:59 and 1:00, so it's all good". It would be the first time in history where a case of Cognitive Dissonance resulted in spontaneous combustion

I'm doing nothing of the kind. No other kingdom is destroyed immediately after rising nor are any assigned a specific duration, so if we're going to be objective we can't demand any such thing with regard to the duration of Antichrist. While the ECFs may have expected it's reign to be short (who wouldn't after hearing how destructive to the body of Christ it was to be), did not the disciples get everything wrong although Jesus told them over and over what was to be?

Again, none of that changes the fact that we're not dealing with doctrinal interpretations or opinions - the "remarkable unanimity" of belief among the ECFs that transcends so much time and distance demands only the one or the other conclusion: Luciferian conspiracy or legit historical account of a core Pauline teaching of the early church. You know what I say

These are all really good points, and I grant them to you.
Except, I still hold out on the last one! Regardless of WHY the ECF are 'unanimous' in belief...at least a seeming majority, it is still unwise and just plain outside of wise practice, to build a biblical doctrine on something that is not found IN scripture. Building a "I'm fairly darn sure it's this" on it...fine. But resting doctrine on it? Nope...sorry, you're not gonna get me!

 

[Naomi25]

What we must do to properly identify the Antichrist is start from the beginning. The first appearance of the figure we know as "Antichrist" goes all the way back to the days of Babylon and is said to happen in the description of the "Little Horn" of Daniel 7 which will arise among the Ten Horns that arose out of the ashes of the fourth kingdom, the fallen Roman Empire. Right away, we can see the papacy as the prime "religio-political" candidate for the Antichrist and the evidence confirming it in the rest of Scripture is plenteous.

Forgive me, but...how can we see 'right away' that the papacy is the prime candidate for Antichrist? I may just be lacking some essential historical knowledge here, but in any case...I'm not seeing a clear lining up between "little horn from ten horns" and a fallen Roman Empire.

 

[Naomi25]

...until you strip out that Dr Scribe guy anyway, yeh.

Lex will not lie to you, like him
you have been lied to your whole life, i might lie to you too, but Lex does not lie, or repeat lies like we do, Naomi. but it is your soul, to do with as you like

What? Who on earth is Dr Scribe, or Lex? Once again...I have no clue.....