The Resurrection is for all people (thank you Yeshua!)

[CadyandZoe]

Not sure what you mean by this question.

Christians typically believe that the Bible is without errors.
But I am asking what prompted you to question everything? Did someone die in your family? Why do you disagree with John's statement that some are cast into the lake of fire? Is it that you don't like the concept?

 

[MatthewG]

Christians typically believe that the Bible is without errors.
But I am asking what prompted you to question everything? Did someone die in your family? Why do you disagree with John's statement that some are cast into the lake of fire? Is it that you don't like the concept?

CadyandZoe,

Sorry for such a long post but consider all of it,

Everything needs to be taken into consideration from context, and also from understanding what words mean, everything needs to be looked at from an objective view, and understood that the Bible was never written to us directly in any sense whatsoever.

Thus, you have your own self, and God, and the text. All the content and context needs to be considered as a whole, and history plays a part in this content, and all people should be encouraged to question everything they have been taught, and to test all things.

As I told you the first time. Someone encouraged it, so I decided to follow along suit of questioning everything. It’s good to challenge your views even if someone sees things differently, and I’m at the point now I’m open to new ideas to some degree or another however my stance on the Lord Jesus Christ having come back and taken his bride and overcoming all things from sin, Satan and his Angels, Sheol/Hell/Hades, and Death (all of it even the second death), will probably never be moved from personally again as it is unshakeable.

I have no problem with people have a part in the lake of fire, the only ones in it forever is the devil, the false prophet and the beast. No part in scripture does it say those who have a part in it are in their forever and I believe it’s a purge process from the fire of God himself, as he is a consuming fire, and the second death is a death to oneself in the afterlife which brings a person to Christ at the end when that Age ends and they make the choice.

Also believe people who don’t believe have a part in the heavenly realms, also the scripture never says the city gates are closed.

It’s such a better view in my perspective than the age old traditions teaching about eternal hell and lake of fire for all who don’t believe… and leaves hope for God getting what he desires over what faulty sola scriptura can lead to.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

LOL! Yeah, a talking donkey would surely throw me for a loop... :)

I appreciate what you say here, SBG, and am certainly not debating it, but just a question that comes to mind: Don't you think the Holy Spirit "speaks" to you through urgings and convictions and circumstances you encounter here and there? And even through the experiences and actions of other folks around you? I think you probably do, but I'm just asking. People kind of throw this verse around almost flippantly sometimes (which shouldn't be done), but it's helpful here, I think:

"...we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose."
[Romans 8:28]​

And this one:

"...it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."
[Philippians 2:13]​

Grace and peace to you!

well…yes, He speaks to me in that way. By the circumstances I find myself in, I learn and have my mind renewed and have wounds healed. It’s not really a question that it’s God who has done that. Trying to think of an example…about a year and a half ago, I did my morning routine of coffee, reading and writing. As usual, at some point, I began to stress over how a family member keeps treating me, it’s quite bad and continual abuse, mostly emotional mind games and manipulations. Then I distinctly saw that she couldn’t help it. I was released immediately from anger and resentment by seeing that she was miserable and lost and could in no way stop what she did. Then I looked out at the rows and rows of houses and realized it was the same for them. I could not help any of them if God did not give me His love. I could only differ from them by degrees but I was just as helpless as them and every bit as tossed around by my emotions as they were. I told God I lacked love just as they did and within a few hours I began to notice my own turbulent emotions and resentments were gone. And to this day, I’ve remained in that freedom of having my flesh put under my feet.
Of course, it was God who did it and who made me see. But, as I said, when it comes to making decisions like a job or whether or not to do a certain thing, no, I’ve never heard from Him any clear instruction. I just do whatever I decide and if it doesn’t work out, I assume it’s because God didn’t want it to.

 

[PinSeeker]

It is indeed God's kindness that leads us to repentance, SBG. Thanks be to God.

Grace and peace to you!

 

[CadyandZoe]

CadyandZoe,

Sorry for such a long post but consider all of it,

Everything needs to be taken into consideration from context, and also from understanding what words mean, everything needs to be looked at from an objective view, and understood that the Bible was never written to us directly in any sense whatsoever.

Don't insult my intelligence Matthew. I know all that.

What I don't know is why you decided to reinterpret various passages to suit your paradigm shift. What was the event that caused your paradigm shift?

 

[MatthewG]

There are people who believe that today people still go to Sheol, or hell, they either got to Paradise part or the prison part. There are people who also believe that for human beings that they are thrown into the lake of fire for all of eternity, the Bible never said they did though they had a part in the lake of fire.


“he who is overcoming shall inherit all things, and I will be to him — a God, and he shall be to me — the son, and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part [is] in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.’”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:7-8‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

How is having a part of something forever? It is not, it is only a part/portion.

The only ones thrown in the lake of fire forever are who?


“and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night — to the ages of the ages.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

The Devil, The beast, the false prophet.

In the ending of Revelation 22 you can see this be said by John,

There are two areas; one where people are going into the city, and one’s that are without being in the city.

“‘Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city; and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:14-15‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Thus this my belief, after all of revelation 20-21 is over with the overall arching view is two places left for people to go, faithful and unfaithful.

One going in, and one not going in at all, outside of the city gate.

@CadyandZoe.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There are people who believe that today people still go to Sheol, or hell, they either got to Paradise part or the prison part. There are people who also believe that for human beings that they are thrown into the lake of fire for all of eternity, the Bible never said they did though they had a part in the lake of fire.


“he who is overcoming shall inherit all things, and I will be to him — a God, and he shall be to me — the son, and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part [is] in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.’”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:7-8‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

How is having a part of something forever? It is not, it is only a part/portion.

The only ones thrown in the lake of fire forever are who?


“and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night — to the ages of the ages.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

The Devil, The beast, the false prophet.

In the ending of Revelation 22 you can see this be said by John,

There are two areas; one where people are going into the city, and one’s that are without being in the city.

“‘Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city; and without [are] the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22:14-15‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Thus this my belief, after all of revelation 20-21 is over with the overall arching view is two places left for people to go, faithful and unfaithful.

One going in, and one not going in at all, outside of the city gate.

@CadyandZoe.

This is the first time I’ve seen you actually speak and give verses for what you believe! All on your own. Not pasting someone else’s thoughts or ideas but actually giving what you have seen in scripture…I like it! Even if I did or didn’t agree, you did well here in this post. :)

 

[MatthewG]

Don't insult my intelligence Matthew. I know all that.

What I don't know is why you decided to reinterpret various passages to suit your paradigm shift. What was the event that caused your paradigm shift?

My apologies if you deemed what was stated to you as insulting your intelligence that is not more forte to make you feel like you are stupid.

Many people on here including yourself are very smart thinking people. God has a purpose for you, whatever it is you may partake in, my encouragement is for all people to be encouraged to look into the Bible and see what it has to say rather than what men can make it seems to say, that is what is important.

A good study bible I recommend is a Thompson Chain Reference Bible, also a Strongs Concordance, as well as Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary.

These all together are probably about 100$, or a little more just to have a round the house. And to be encouraged to do verse by verse studies of the Bible yourself and make your own little line by line lessons pulling off as much possible with the Bible itself. There is also a very useful program called E-sword, that helps a lot in studying.

I can't do anything but encourage people to think for themselves, and get into their own bible and see what it has to say, because at the end of the day - a person and what they have decided to put effort into and learn is all predicated on them alone. Many people teach many different things and the biggest thing for me is truth... and that all comes from properly studying the Bible, even with use of history to help one out.

May the peace and grace of God be with you and all people here.

 

[Aunty Jane]

My point was: Adam and Eve were created having only innocence, being totally void of the knowledge of evil or good. It is apparent that A&E never ate from the tree of Life, because if they had, they would've recieved the Gift of eternal life and LIVE FOREVER, having only the knowledge good and evil through God, and NOT by way of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Yes....In all human experiences there are equal opposites.....up, down....in, out....forward, backwards....high, low....strong, weak....inside, outside....it’s the perfect balance of the Creator that is reflected in everything he has made.....but the one opposite that he did not want his children to experience was the opposite of good, especially the extreme of goodness that would flow from him through his love. The opposite of that would be extreme as well, but in the negative. That is what he wanted to shield his children from.....but being free willed, he could not force it on them, so he had the TKGE placed in the garden with a command NOT to eat from this one tree which he said was his exclusive property. To steal what belonged to their Sovereign carried the death penalty, and under normal circumstances, there was nothing they needed on that tree because God had already provided so abundantly for them.
IOW there was no reason to eat from it unless they chose to die for some reason...and who would choose to die living in paradise with no evil ever touching their lives?

It was a rebel spirit who was present in the garden, entertaining wrong thoughts about his own lot in life, that altered everything......and when he did not dismiss those thoughts, (James1:13-15) he plotted to target the woman so as to deceived her into believing his lie, and when she in turn tempted her husband (as he knew she would) the trap door slammed shut, and they were trapped in sin and death along with all their future children.....and the rest, as they say is history.

It’s what God did about it straight away that is interesting.....he did not enact the death penalty immediately, but issued a prophesy about a future “seed” who would deal with the situation. (Genesis 3:15) Although the details at the time were scant, in God’s due time he would make those details clear to his worshippers.

Jehovah allowed them to fulfill the first part of his mandate...to “fill the earth”, but in their now sinful state the “subduing” of the earth (transforming it into a paradise) would have to come later, after he had dealt with this rebellion in the best way possible. (Revelation 21:2-4) In doing so, he would make sure that no rebel had grounds to challenge his Sovereignty ever again. Every individual would be tried and tested as to their loyalty and fitness before restoring his purpose for the earth and its inhabitants. (Isaiah 55:11)

After his Kingdom of a thousand years, in the hands of its perfect King, restores all redeemed and resurrected mankind to a sinless state, the devil will test humanity one last time by allowing satan to do what he does best (Revelation 20:1-3)......but the now perfect human race will have the knowledge and experience to tell the devil what Jesus told him.....“go away satan! It is written...” only unworthy ones will fall for his old tricks and will join him in a place where no one is ever seen again.....”the lake of fire”....eternal death. Isaiah 55:11 is fulfilled. Everlasting life in paradise on earth is finally reestablished...permanently, and the Creator can get on with whatever plans he has for this vast Universe, which I am sure he didn’t create for no reason......

 

[Aunty Jane]

Gen.3[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Who do you think the word "us" is in reference to?

I believe that the scriptures answer that question, if you let them....God has had his son at his side, from “the beginning”.....working with him. Until he created other life, Jehovah was always Almighty God, but he was not a “Creator” until he created his “firstborn”. (Colossians 1:15) Only then did he become a “Father”.

Proverbs 8, often referred to as “Wisdom Personified” is referring to the “us” in Genesis....
Scholars have no difficulty seeing God’s son described here....

“The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the sons of men.” (Proverbs 8:22-23,27-31 - RSV)

Wisdom does not exist apart from a personality capable of possessing and reflecting it. Consequently, this “Wisdom” must be a personification picturing someone who was created as “the first of his acts of old.” Jesus was very personally connected to the creation itself, having assisted his Father in bringing it all into existence. (John 1:3; Corinthians 1:24, 30)

Even Jesus himself says that he is “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Revelation 3:14)

That answers your question perfectly for me, but that is because I do not see the Father and Son as one entity...they are completely separate beings, but “joined at the hip” as it were, in being united always in spirit and in purpose....it’s the trinity that basically rewrote the Bible as they wove it into everything. But it was never there in the first place.

 

[Earburner]

There are people who believe that today people still go to Sheol, or hell, they either got to Paradise part or the prison part. There are people who also believe that for human beings that they are thrown into the lake of fire for all of eternity, the Bible never said they did though they had a part in the lake of fire

Sheol, aka hell is nothing more than the grave.

It is both death and the grave that could not keep Jesus. Therefore for each of us now, who have put their faith in Christ, and are born again by His Holy Spirit, while still having breath, "we shall never die".
John 11:26.
However, all of such DO experience the death of their mortal bodies, as did Jesus. On that level, the only difference between Him and us, is He is the first resurrection, being the FIRSTborn from the dead. We are waiting to follow.
As of yet, we have NOT experienced the physical resurrection of our bodies, which will take place on the very Day of His Glorious and visible return from Heaven.

WE who are Born again HAVE experienced only the first part of our resurrection, which is by receiving the promise of Eternal Life, through the Gift of the Holy Spirit. 1 John 5:12-13.

It is by that Gift and through that Gift, ...."we shall never die". Even though our mortal bodies are laying in sheol-hell, aka the grave, we shall be in paradise with Jesus, but asleep, waiting for the Day of the FULNESS of our resurrection into the likeness of His immortality. Just in the simplicity of receiving the Holy Spirit of God through faith, We HAVE OVERCOME death, and shall never die.

In essence, we who are born again, are already half way home, with Promise- "we are (X)ONE of His".
Romans 8:8-9.

 

[Earburner]

I believe that the scriptures answer that question, if you let them....God has had his son at his side, from “the beginning”.....working with him. Until he created other life, Jehovah was always Almighty God, but he was not a “Creator” until he created his “firstborn”. (Colossians 1:15) Only then did he become a “Father”.

Yes, I agree! But from that side of eternity, we have no idea of when Jesus became God's only begotten Son. I do not say that Jesus was "created", but rather is the express IMAGE of His person of God Himself, aka being an extension of Himself, being Spirit. Hebrews 1:3.
Jesus didn't become flesh until God prepared a body for Him, so that He may come in the likeness of our flesh and dwell among us. Hebrews 10:5

 

[Earburner]

I believe that the scriptures answer that question, if you let them....God has had his son at his side, from “the beginning”.....working with him. Until he created other life, Jehovah was always Almighty God, but he was not a “Creator” until he created his “firstborn”. (Colossians 1:15) Only then did he become a “Father”.

Proverbs 8, often referred to as “Wisdom Personified” is referring to the “us” in Genesis....
Scholars have no difficulty seeing God’s son described here....

“The Lord created me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him, like a master workman; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always, rejoicing in his inhabited world and delighting in the sons of men.” (Proverbs 8:22-23,27-31 - RSV)

Wisdom does not exist apart from a personality capable of possessing and reflecting it. Consequently, this “Wisdom” must be a personification picturing someone who was created as “the first of his acts of old.” Jesus was very personally connected to the creation itself, having assisted his Father in bringing it all into existence. (John 1:3; Corinthians 1:24, 30)

Even Jesus himself says that he is “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Revelation 3:14)

That answers your question perfectly for me, but that is because I do not see the Father and Son as one entity...they are completely separate beings, but “joined at the hip” as it were, in being united always in spirit and in purpose....it’s the trinity that basically rewrote the Bible as they wove it into everything. But it was never there in the first place.

I am of the Binitarian concept in the understanding of the God head ("joined at the hip", as you say).

In KJV- Revelation 3:20, I am making reference to the Strongs Concordance of Jesus as being the chief cornerstone, the primal element for the creation of all things.
Strong's Number - G746
Greek: ἀρχή
Transliteration: archē
Pronunciation: ar-khay'
Definition: From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order time place or rank): - beginning corner (at the the) first (estate) magistrate power principality principle rule.
KJV Usage: beginning (40x), principality (8x), corner (2x), first (2x), misc (6x).
Occurs: 58
In verses: 56

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, I agree! But from that side of eternity, we have no idea of when Jesus became God's only begotten Son.

It was so far back in time that I don’t see how it matters “when” Jesus was “begotten”....the main thing is, that something “begotten” needs a “begetter” who existed before him. No one existed before God...and only God existed before his “firstborn”. (Colossians 1:15) Creation has to start somewhere....no?
Is there something that prevents the pre-human Jesus from being God’s first unique creation?

The “beginning” spoken about in John 1:1 was the “beginning” of creation and Jesus was that first creation. Since everything came into existence “through” the agency of the Son, (John 1:2-3; Colossians 1:15-17) nothing existed before him except his own God, Father and Creator. The scriptures give us no other scenario.

I do not say that Jesus was "created", but rather is the express IMAGE of His person of God Himself, aka being an extension of Himself, being Spirit. Hebrews 1:3.

Let's examine this a bit further.....is that what Hebrews 1:3 rreally says?

Here is that verse in a few different translations...starting with the Mounce Interlinear...Greek to English.
"This Son is the radiance of his glory and the exact representation of his nature, and although sustaining · all there is by the word of his power, yet made purification for sins, and then sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high".

KJV..."who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high".

GW..."His Son is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact likeness of God’s being. He holds everything together through his powerful words. After he had cleansed people from their sins, he now holds the honored position—the one next to the majestic God [the Father] on the heavenly throne."

NLT..."The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven."

So what are we seeing presented here as the overall meaning of that verse? When something "reflects" radiance, what do we often think of first?
I think of the sun and the way the moon reflects radiance from the sun as its only light source. The moon itself has no radience of its own, but is designed to reflect radience from its light source.
The only source of light in the scriptures is Jehovah. His firstborn son is a reflection of his Father's radiance in like manner. These translations reveal that Jesus is like his Father in every way.....not one of them indicates something like the Son being an extension of God however....."like father, like son" doesn't mean that father and son are the same person...does it?

There is no way that the Creator needed to become like his own creation to save mankind. His son was a willing volunteer for that assignment.
His love for mankind was strong because he had a hand in their creation.

Jesus didn't become flesh until God prepared a body for Him, so that He may come in the likeness of our flesh and dwell among us. Hebrews 10:5

That's what the Bible says.....God prepared a human body for Jesus, and transferred his life from a spirit being in heaven to that of a sinless human being on earth. He had to sacrifice that body to pay the redemption price that was required to 'atone' for Adam's sin. God himself could not have paid the price required because the Father is immortal and cannot die.....there is so much misunderstanding about the son's relationship to his Father.....but why can't they be what they called themselves......"Father and son"? Seems simple enough...who complicated it?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I am of the Binitarian concept in the understanding of the God head ("joined at the hip", as you say).

In KJV- Revelation 3:20, I am making reference to the Strongs Concordance of Jesus as being the chief cornerstone, the primal element for the creation of all things.
Strong's Number - G746
Greek: ἀρχή
Transliteration: archē
Pronunciation: ar-khay'
Definition: From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement or (concrete) chief (in various applications of order time place or rank): - beginning corner (at the the) first (estate) magistrate power principality principle rule.
KJV Usage: beginning (40x), principality (8x), corner (2x), first (2x), misc (6x).
Occurs: 58
In verses: 56

If the primary meaning of "archē" is "beginning"...translated that way 40 times out of 58.....who says that it means something different?
Only those who can't see Jesus as a created being......and yet the Bible does not say that he wasn't created.....does it?

 

[CadyandZoe]

My apologies if you deemed what was stated to you as insulting your intelligence that is not more forte to make you feel like you are stupid.

Many people on here including yourself are very smart thinking people. God has a purpose for you, whatever it is you may partake in, my encouragement is for all people to be encouraged to look into the Bible and see what it has to say rather than what men can make it seems to say, that is what is important.

A good study bible I recommend is a Thompson Chain Reference Bible, also a Strongs Concordance, as well as Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary.

These all together are probably about 100$, or a little more just to have a round the house. And to be encouraged to do verse by verse studies of the Bible yourself and make your own little line by line lessons pulling off as much possible with the Bible itself. There is also a very useful program called E-sword, that helps a lot in studying.

I can't do anything but encourage people to think for themselves, and get into their own bible and see what it has to say, because at the end of the day - a person and what they have decided to put effort into and learn is all predicated on them alone. Many people teach many different things and the biggest thing for me is truth... and that all comes from properly studying the Bible, even with use of history to help one out.

May the peace and grace of God be with you and all people here.

You should make apologies for your own behavior, not mine. It sounds to me as if you don't believe you actually did anything wrong. Why not be honest and simply say, "I insulted your intelligence. I assumed that you don't study the Bible. I assumed that you didn't have access to Bible study helps. That was wrong of me and it won't happen again."

You say you want to encourage people to look into the Bible to see what it actually says. I can tell you this, if you are using a Thompson Chain Reference Bible, you will never achieve your stated goal. The Thompson Chain Reference Bible caters to a student's worst instincts: proof texting. Most, if not all false teaching is based on taking Bible verses out of context, erroneously assuming that a single verse of scripture, considered in isolation is able to deliver a proper and correct understanding of God's will for mankind. The essence of the TCRB (Thompson Chain Reference Bible) are the chains, which scholars have developed to steer the student toward the "official interpretation" but in reality lead the reader in a wild goose chase of disconnected thoughts, causing the student to innovate ideas that the Biblical authors never intended. Rather than serving as a good Bible study aide, the TCRB makes the Bible invisible to the student.

In fact, the Bible is NOT intended to be studied line-by-line as if each line, considered independently, has any meaning at all. A single word is ambiguous outside of a complete sentence; a complete sentence is ambiguous outside a complete paragraph; and a complete paragraph is ambiguous outside of the finished work. A student would gain much more from the Bible by simply reading it and thinking about what the author intends to say, rather than "making a line-by-line lesson" as you suggest. The Bible is not a series of disconnected thoughts. And therefore it shouldn't be broken up into disconnected thoughts.

From now on, please don't approach me or anyone else with your self-righteous attitude as if you were the first person in history to discover reference materials.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You should make apologies for your own behavior, not mine. It sounds to me as if you don't believe you actually did anything wrong. Why not be honest and simply say, "I insulted your intelligence. I assumed that you don't study the Bible. I assumed that you didn't have access to Bible study helps. That was wrong of me and it won't happen again."

He can’t stop what he does. The passive aggressive digs are something you have to get used to and ignore to talk with him. It’s how he talks and what he does and he’s not going to stop doing it. I’ve been over it with him. He thinks he’s being persecuted when anyone tries to address it with him. You won’t get him to see it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

How is having a part of something forever? It is not, it is only a part/portion.

In this context phrases like "his part" or "their part" or "a part" refer to the apportionment of something that is shared between those to whom the thing is appointed.

The "part" is that which belongs to one, or which is assumed by one, or which falls to one, in a division or apportionment. For instance, when he says, "Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection" he suggests a final condition or state of being, which will fall to many. And one will be considered blessed if this particular state of being should be awarded to him or her. He is also suggesting that the first resurrection is a subordinate portion of a larger whole. And his purpose is to assign a particular quality to the first resurrection, which is not found in the second "resurrection". The first resurrection results in eternal life; while the second resurrection results in eternal destruction, which is apparently why he uses the appellation "second death." Such people are not apportioned a share in eternal life.

The only ones thrown in the lake of fire forever are who?

Revelation 20:15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

From this we understand that universal salvation is defeated. If everyone's name is written in the book of life, then this verse isn't necessary because if universalism were true, everyone's name would be found written in the book of life and therefore verse 15 is describing an empty set. But he tells you that some are NOT found written in the book of life, and these will also be thrown into the lake of fire.

There are two areas; one where people are going into the city, and one’s that are without being in the city.

I take note of the fact that the tree of life is located within the city walls, and that those outside are NOT allowed to enter the city. From this we know that those outside are not destined for eternal life. Again, if universalism were true, then there would be no one outside the city. ALL would eat from the tree of life. But since those outside the city are not allowed to enter, then they do not have everlasting life. (Refer to Revelation 20:27)

Consider all the verses in this context. Don't leave out the ones that don't fit your current understanding.

 

[Earburner]

If the primary meaning of "archē" is "beginning"...translated that way 40 times out of 58.....who says that it means something different?
Only those who can't see Jesus as a created being......and yet the Bible does not say that he wasn't created.....does it?

AJ, I hear you, and I almost partly accept it, but the stick in the mud for me is what you already referenced in Proverbs 8:22-31. Nowhere in that does it reveal that Jesus was created, but rather He was "brought forth", which is NOT in the way that we and all of creation came to be. Jesus was brought forth from out of the Eternity of God Himself, which to me is meaning that Jesus is the extension of God Himself, in an additional form of His Spirit for our sakes.
Why?
Exod.33:17-23
[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Edit: to provide an analogy in the simplest of terms, I suppose the existence of God the Father and God the Son can be likened to a computer driven "holographic image". While the original is unseen, the Image of the original is seen.

 

[CadyandZoe]

He can’t stop what he does. The passive aggressive digs are something you have to get used to and ignore to talk with him. It’s how he talks and what he does and he’s not going to stop doing it. I’ve been over it with him. He thinks he’s being persecuted when anyone tries to address it with him. You won’t get him to see it.

Okay. I guess my "father instinct" guides me to engage with those I believe are on the right track with a hardness intended as loving correction.

Do I assume too much?