The Revelation 11, Revelation 13, and Luke 17 Connection: Why the Pretrib Timeline Chronologically Collapses

[Spiritual Israelite]

A postriber has an ugly job of casting down Gods word.
It is appalling

LOL. You find it appalling when we post-tribbers agree with Jesus that the rapture will be post-trib. Okay then.

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

 

[marks]

How are you coming to this conclusion that Matthew 25:31-46 can't be the same judgment as Revelation 20:11-15? Do you think the following verses are referring to completely different events?

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Read them and compare, the timing, the participants, how can you think they are the same??

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They are trying to paint a picture of "trib vs wrath", then inserting strict made up definitions of both.

Who are you to say how those things should be defined? As if you are the ultimate authority to decide for everyone else how terms should be defined? Ridiculous! How about making an effort to be clear as to how you are using those terms in order to avoid confusion? Is that too much to ask of you? Or do you want to continue making as minimal of an effort as possible to make it clear as to what you are talking about in your posts?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Read them and compare, the timing, the participants, how can you think they are the same?? Have you never actually read them?

You can't be serious. I posted them, but you think I haven't read them? How can they not be the same? Do you somehow not know that those who are represented by the goats do not have their names written in the book of life? Why would you think that those whose names are not written in the book of life would be cast into everlasting fire at two completely different times? What other scripture can you point to which supports that idea?

How do you interpret the following passage...

Matthew 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Which verse do you think speaks of this same event that describes the wicked being cast into the furnace of fire. Matthew 25:41 or Revelation 20:15?

 

[marks]

Pre-tribs on this forum don't seem interested in getting to the meat of the topic. They do not answer most of the questions or address most of the points that post-tribs make. I would love to discuss passages like Matthew 24:29-51, Matthew 25:31-46, 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Luke 17:26-37 in depth with you to show how those refute both pre-trib and premil. Are you interested?

You have a tendency to make many negative personal comments, and I find I'm not interested in that sort of discussion. When so many posts seem to have to get these little personal "digs" in, it's not only a red flag, not only a distraction, but is also distasteful to me. When I start seeing these comments I tend to just stop reading. I mean no offense, this is just how I feel about it.

Besides, we've been over this before, more than once. And I happen to actually believe what I wrote, that there are more foundational issues that have to be addressed first, or there will be no agreement. If we aren't in agreement about who is the church and who is Israel we will not agree on these others passages no matter how many times we go over them.

The sheep goats judgment is a great example. We read the same words, and think entirely different things. I going to say that this is a narrative prophecy exactly like Jesus' coming in power and glory, and should be treated in exactly the same way. That means it cannot be the GWTJ, due to the many differences. You've indicated that it IS the GWTJ, retold. You point to the similarities to show that we should not allow the differences to indicate a different event. I point to the differences as being definitive, disallowing that this would be the GWTJ. The differences show that it IS a different event.

It's not the wording of the passage that is determinate of your view, as you've "reinterpreted those parts that don't fit the GWTJ, because you don't accept that there is a dispensational change between the end of the times of the gentiles, and the 70th week of Daniel, the "time of Jacob's trouble". So therefore the sheep goats judgment won't make any sense as written, that the gentiles are judged by their works, and the Jews are gathered separately. Joel shows this same prophecy in ch 3, Israel returned to their land, then the nations gathered and judged.

But again, we can scour over these passages together all we like, yet we will not reach agreement unless we first are agreed on these other matters, Israel/Church, Dispensations, and the like, as I listed in a previous post.

Believing that Israel includes the Church means you cannot accept the sheep goats judgment exactly as written because of the contradictions created if that were so. Therefore you conclude that it cannot mean exactly what it says, or that the GWTJ doesn't mean exactly what it says, because in fact they say two different things.

So anyway, I don't know what you want to do with all this, just sharing my thoughts with you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

but you think I haven't read them?

Sorry about that comment. I was intending to make a point with it, but that was not the right way. You'll see that I'd already edited it out of the post. My apologies!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You have a tendency to make many negative personal comments, and I find I'm not interested in that sort of discussion. When so many posts seem to have to get these little personal "digs" in, it's not only a red flag, not only a distraction, but is also distasteful to me. When I start seeing these comments I tend to just stop reading. I mean no offense, this is just how I feel about it.

Besides, we've been over this before, more than once. And I happen to actually believe what I wrote, that there are more foundational issues that have to be addressed first, or there will be no agreement. If we aren't in agreement about who is the church and who is Israel we will not agree on these others passages no matter how many times we go over them.

The sheep goats judgment is a great example. We read the same words, and think entirely different things. I going to say that this is a narrative prophecy exactly like Jesus' coming in power and glory, and should be treated in exactly the same way. That means it cannot be the GWTJ, due to the many differences. You've indicated that it IS the GWTJ, retold. You point to the similarities to show that we should not allow the differences to indicate a different event. I point to the differences as being definitive, disallowing that this would be the GWTJ. The differences show that it IS a different event.

It's not the wording of the passage that is determinate of your view, as you've "reinterpreted those parts that don't fit the GWTJ, because you don't accept that there is a dispensational change between the end of the times of the gentiles, and the 70th week of Daniel, the "time of Jacob's trouble". So therefore the sheep goats judgment won't make any sense as written, that the gentiles are judged by their works, and the Jews are gathered separately. Joel shows this same prophecy in ch 3, Israel returned to their land, then the nations gathered and judged.

But again, we can scour over these passages together all we like, yet we will not reach agreement unless we first are agreed on these other matters, Israel/Church, Dispensations, and the like, as I listed in a previous post.

Believing that Israel includes the Church means you cannot accept the sheep goats judgment exactly as written because of the contradictions created if that were so. Therefore you conclude that it cannot mean exactly what it says, or that the GWTJ doesn't mean exactly what it says, because in fact they say two different things.

So anyway, I don't know what you want to do with all this, just sharing my thoughts with you.

You can do what you want, of course. Keep in mind that pre-tribs make personal comments every bit as much as I do. That's a fact. But, as a pre-trib yourself, you're less likely to notice it.

I don't have time to respond beyond this right now, but can you at least answer the question I had asked?

How do you interpret the following passage...

Matthew 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Which verse do you think speaks of this same event that describes the wicked being cast into the furnace of fire. Matthew 25:41 or Revelation 20:15?

I'd like to know how you conclude that people whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the fire at two completely separate times when passages like the above and Revelation 20:15 indicate that the wicked, which equate to those whose names are not written in the book of life, will all be cast into the fire at the same time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sorry about that comment. I was intending to make a point with it, but that was not the right way. You'll see that I'd already edited it out of the post. My apologies!

You have made a fair number of other personal comments to me before as well and other pre-tribs have made many personal comments, so this isn't just about me. But, I am quite capable of having a discussion minus any personal digs if we can just stick to discussing scripture and actually address each other's points.

 

[marks]

I don't have time to respond beyond this right now,

I'll wait.

 

[Davidpt]

A ton of commentary with no valid points.
One assumption after another.
Your copy paste article needs the source.
That article glosses over Rev 13.
Ahem, the chapter proving the postrib rapture house of cards topples when i pick it up from the floor where you guys shove it.
Your article is typical of cherrypicking one liners to convice non bereeans of a tired old doctrine..

Read the OP again and what you have quoted. How did you overlook that? It's the very first paragraph. I'm the source. I simply used an AI to rewrite my post so it would be easier to follow. None of that was copied from a website or something.

 

[shepherdsword]

What am I supposed to answer to here??

No thanks.

Read the OP and see if you agree

 

[marks]

Read the OP and see if you agree

I don't like AI stuff. What are the key points?

 

[shepherdsword]

I don't like AI stuff. What are the key points?

It's not AI

 

[marks]

It's not AI

He already said he wrote it and then had AI rewrite it.

I can only imagine the key points could be restated in a couple of sentences each. I've been in this debate for decades, I've held various views at different times, I'm no stranger to this.

Much love!

 

[Davidpt]

They insist the trib is a cake walk.
A speed bump.
No big deal.

BTW, let's just complain about my commentary and a lack of Scripture, and ignore that you are doing the same here. Thus don't have room to talk.

In my view it's a cakewalk for those worshiping the beast during it's reign. Unless you want to argue that Revelation 13 spells doom and gloom for those worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign. Keeping in mind, during the 42 month reign is not the same as after the 42 month reign, in regard to both those worshiping the beast and those not worshiping the beast.

Those worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign = temporary peace and safety.

Those not worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign = being made war with, overcome, and in some cases killed, thus the wrath of satan is upon them.

At the end of the 42 month reign in regard to those who have been worshiping the beast = being made war with, overcome, and eventually killed, thus the wrath of God is upon them.

At the end of the 42 month reign in regard to those who have not been worshiping the beast = everlasting peace and safety finally, thus the post trib rapture has occurred.

 

[shepherdsword]

He already said he wrote it and then had AI rewrite it.

I can only imagine the key points could be restated in a couple of sentences each. I've been in this debate for decades, I've held various views at different times, I'm no stranger to this.

Much love!

I was raised in pre-trib and believed it for years like a good southern Baptist should. Then the Lord opened my eyes. I mean, I wish it was true, just like I wish annihilation was true. It's just that I don't see it in the scriptures

 

[Davidpt]

Presupposing that the church and Israel are blended together, but this does not allow a literal fulfillment of the sheep goats judgment, which is a narrative prophecy EXACTLY the same as is the prophecy of Jesus' return. Do you believe the one but not the other? If so, that's a problem.

Dispensationalism provides the only answer.

Much love!

In my view the sheep and goats judgment determines who in the body of Christ inherit the kingdom of God and who in the body of Christ are cast out, thus not allowed to inherit. Exactly what Jesus was just speaking about in the end of Matthew 24, then in ch 25 leading up to this judgment. The sheep are meaning Christ's profitable servants. The goats are meaning Christ's unprofitable servants This happens right before the beginning of the millennium and is not meaning Revelation 20:12-15. Maybe some disagree that we are supposed to interpret things in context. But I'm not one that disagrees. The end of Matthew 24 and then ch 25 leading up to this judgment establishes the context of this judgment. It's that simple.

 

[marks]

I was raised in pre-trib and believed it for years like a good southern Baptist should. Then the Lord opened my eyes. I mean, I wish it was true, just like I wish annihilation was true. It's just that I don't see it in the scriptures

I wasn't raised anything, and have studied this for many years. Did the Lord open your eyes? Did the Lord open my eyes? Neither pf us?

I don't have a preference of one doctrine over another, whatever it is, is according to God's wisdom, and that way will be best. I became a Christian to begin with because I realize this is truth. That's all I'm interested in.

Did Jesus teach on the Rapture of the Church? I'd say no, He did not, and that the Church, and it's distinctions, were revealed through Paul.

Much love!

 

[marks]

In my view the sheep and goats judgment determines who in the body of Christ inherit the kingdom of God and who in the body of Christ are cast out, thus not allowed to inherit.

I certainly didn't expect that.

What do you think of the comparison between this passage and Joel 3? Same event?

Much love!

 

[shepherdsword]

I wasn't raised anything, and have studied this for many years. Did the Lord open your eyes? Did the Lord open my eyes? Neither pf us?

I don't have a preference of one doctrine over another, whatever it is, is according to God's wisdom, and that way will be best. I became a Christian to begin with because I realize this is truth. That's all I'm interested in.

Did Jesus teach on the Rapture of the Church? I'd say no, He did not, and that the Church, and it's distinctions, were revealed through Paul.

Much love!

I have been studying this for over 50 years....I am no spring chicken