The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31)

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
8,936
5,047
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Why are you totally ignoring several warnings of THE FIRE by Jesus?
No one is ignoring what the Bible says......you are simply ignoring what the FIRE means in context.
But no matter what anyone shows you about the symbolic nature of many things in the Bible, you seem to relish the idea that the god you worship would enjoy such a thing. You actually are serving the wrong god.
"Symbolic", a fav of JW's when they don't like what God said! "Death" NEVER means 'cease to exist' in the Bible! NEVER!
The “second death” is called that for a reason Jack....it’s a different kind of death...a permanent one.
Ceasing to exist is exactly what it means. “Gehenna” (hell) is the place called the “lake of fire” because nothing survives a fire....everything cast into a fire is “destroyed” which is exactly what the Scriptures tell us.

John 3:16....a well known verse....
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (KJV)

Look up the word “perish”.......it means “to pass away completely: become destroyed”(Merriam Webster Dictionary) To “perish” is the opposite of “everlasting life”.
You have tunnel vision when it comes to scripture. What little you know is horribly bent all out of shape.

I cannot even imagine worshipping a sadistic god, whose aim is to happily torture souls forever in a fire.
That you can, and relish the thought, says a lot about you.

The wrath of God is a main Bible doctrine. You must have a LOT of pages missing from your Bible.
The “wrath of God” has never involved prolonged torture of any kind......I shudder at what you miss in the pages you claim to believe in. Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life. Why does God want more than what he himself says in his word....something you apparently never read, or try to understand beyond your own twisted interpretation, but are happy to spread your accepted delusion. (2 Thess 2:9-12)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: walter

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,898
5,972
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No one is ignoring what the Bible says......you are simply ignoring what the the FIRE means in context.
It clearly explains what it means. "They will be tormented FOREVER"!
But no matter what anyone shows you about the symbolic nature of many things in the Bible, you seem to relish the idea that the god you worship would enjoy such a thing. You actually are serving the wrong god.
I know what SYMBOLIC means to JW's. They don't like what God said.
The “second death” is called that for a reason Jack....it’s a different kind of death...a permanent one.
Yeah, burning in fire, quite alive. Just like the rich man in Luke 16 who DIED but was quite alive in the FIRE crying and tormented!
Ceasing to exist is exactly what it means. “Gehenna” (hell) is the place called the “lake of fire” because nothing survives a fire....everything cast into a fire is “destroyed” which is exactly what the Scriptures tell us.
GB opinions!
John 3:16....a well known verse....
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (KJV)

Look up the word “perish”.......it means “to pass away completely: become destroyed”(Merriam Webster Dictionary) To “perish” is the opposite of “everlasting life”.
You have tunnel vision when it comes to scripture. What little you know is horribly bent all out of shape.
Yes I have Jesus tunnel vision, for what Jesus said: "They will be tormented day and night FOREVER... "
I cannot even imagine worshipping a sadistic god, whose aim is to happily torture souls forever in a fire.
Are you referring to God of the Bible who drowned all but 8 on Earth and burned Sodom alive, "making them an example"?
That you can, and relish the thought, says a lot about you.
If I wanted you to burn in Hell I wouldn't be pulling you from the FIRE! You should thank me.

Jude 1:22-23
22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,
The “wrath of God” has never involved prolonged torture of any kind......I shudder at what you miss in the pages you claim to believe in. Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life. Why does God want more that what he himself says in his word....something you apparently never read, or try to understand beyond your own twisted interpretation, but are happy to spread your accepted delusion. (2 Thess 2:9-12)
Hell will have BILLIONS of humans who don't believe in Hell! You should RUN from Kingdom Hall for your Life! Soon the GB will be burning in Hell Fire and all of their puppets with them!
 
Last edited:

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
2,003
541
113
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
"Symbolic", a fav of JW's when they don't like what God said!
Most of the Book of Revelation is symbolic. John declares so in the very first verse:

Revelation 1:1 UASV+
(1) The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place; and he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,​

"Death" NEVER means 'cease to exist' in the Bible! NEVER!
Why are you ignoring what I posted in post #139 about the destruction of Satan, quoting from Ezekiel 28:

(16) By the abundance of your commerce, your insides were filled with violence, and you have sinned. Therefore I have cast you as profane out of God’s mountain. I have destroyed you, covering cherub, from the middle of the stones of fire.​
(17) Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty. You have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground. I have laid you before kings, that they may see you.​
(18) By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your commerce, you have profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought out a fire from the middle of you. It has devoured you. I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all those who see you.​
(19) All those who know you among the peoples will be astonished at you. You have become a terror, and you will exist no more.”’”​

So destruction does mean "cease to exist" - it clearly states that.

Clearly referring to those in God's Kingdom, not the wicked.
As usual you are completely missing (or ignoring) the point. Death will be no more because it was symbolically thrown into the lake of fire, causing it to no longer exist; similarly people who are thrown into the lake of fire will be destroyed and will exist no more. If you think that death will still apply to those not in God's Kingdom then you are right! They will die (the "second death"); they will not have eternal life and so they cannot be tortured forever.
 
Last edited:

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
2,003
541
113
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Are you referring to God of the Bible who drowned all but 8 on Earth and burned Sodom alive, "making them an example"?
Luke 17:29 WEB
(29) but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom, it rained fire and sulfur from the sky, and destroyed them all.​

2 Peter 2:6 WEB
(6) and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example to those who would live in an ungodly way;​

Jude 1:7 WEB
(7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are shown as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.​

The example of Sodom and Gomorrah, who were living in an ungodly way, suffering the punishment of eternal fire, clearly states that they were destroyed, not tortured forever. Similarly, those who are symbolically described as being punished in eternal fire are also destroyed.

Soon the GB will be burning in Hell Fire and all of their puppets with them!
What do you mean by "GB"?
 
Last edited:
  • Love
Reactions: walter

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,898
5,972
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Most of the Book of Revelation is symbolic. John declares so in the very first verse:

Revelation 1:1 UASV+
(1) The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place; and he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,​
You didn't even read what you posted! Symbolic? You sound so JW!
Why are you ignoring what I posted in post #139 about the destruction of Satan, quoting from Ezekiel 28:

(16) By the abundance of your commerce, your insides were filled with violence, and you have sinned. Therefore I have cast you as profane out of God’s mountain. I have destroyed you, covering cherub, from the middle of the stones of fire.​
(17) Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty. You have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground. I have laid you before kings, that they may see you.​
(18) By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your commerce, you have profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought out a fire from the middle of you. It has devoured you. I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all those who see you.​
(19) All those who know you among the peoples will be astonished at you. You have become a terror, and you will exist no more.”’”​

So destruction does mean "cease to exist" - it clearly states that.
Should we believe you or Jesus???

Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
As usual you are completely missing (or ignoring) the point. Death will be no more because it was symbolically thrown into the lake of fire, causing it to no longer exist; similarly people who are thrown into the lake of fire will be destroyed and will exist no more. If you think that death will still apply to those not in God's Kingdom then you are right!
You must have got your bible education at Kingdom Hall.
They will die (the "second death"); they will not have eternal life and so they cannot be tortured forever.
You just called Jesus a LIAR!

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,898
5,972
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Luke 17:29 WEB
(29) but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom, it rained fire and sulfur from the sky, and destroyed them all.​
Yeah, their bodies!
2 Peter 2:6 WEB
(6) and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction,​
Yeah, their bodies.

having made them an example to those who would live in an ungodly way;​
There you go.
Jude 1:7 WEB
(7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are shown as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
Now you're cookin'! Well not yet, thank God!
The example of Sodom and Gomorrah, who were living in an ungodly way, suffering the punishment of eternal fire,
There you go!
clearly states that they were destroyed, not tortured forever.
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Similarly, those who are symbolically described as being punished in eternal fire are also destroyed.
Your JW opinions do not overrule Jesus!


Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You can't ignore Jesus forever.
 

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
2,003
541
113
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
You didn't even read what you posted!
That is a deliberate lie, and you know it (or are very stupid).

Symbolic? You sound so JW!
You must be very ignorant of the Book of Revelation if you didn't know that it was written using symbolic language. Just do a simple Google search on "book of revelation summary" and it will say "It uses symbolic language to describe God's plan for the end times" and "Revelation is characterized by symbolic imagery, dreams, and visions, not a literal code for the future". It even says "After Satan's defeat, the dead are raised for final judgment, and the unrighteous are destroyed".

Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You just called Jesus a LIAR!
And you insinuate that the Apostles were liars and that the Scriptures are wrong:

2 Thessalonians 1:9-10 WEB
(9) who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,​
(10) when he comes in that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired among all those who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.​

Philippians 3:18-19 WEB
(18) For many walk, of whom I told you often, and now tell you even weeping, as the enemies of the cross of Christ,​
(19) whose end is destruction, whose god is the belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who think about earthly things.​

Philippians 1:28 WEB
(28) and in nothing frightened by the adversaries, which is for them a proof of destruction, but to you of salvation, and that from God.​

2 Peter 2:1 WEB
(1) But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.​

2 Peter 2:3 WEB
(3) In covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words: whose sentence now from of old doesn’t linger, and their destruction will not slumber.​

2 Peter 3:7 WEB
(7) But the heavens that now exist, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.​

2 Peter 3:16 WEB
(16) as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those, there are some things that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.​

Of which Barnes says:​

Unto their own destruction - By embracing false doctrines. Error destroys the soul; and it is very possible for a man so to read the Bible as only to confirm himself in error. He may find passages which, by a perverted interpretation, shall seem to sustain his own views; and, instead of embracing the truth, may live always under delusion, and perish at last. It is not to be inferred that every man who reads the Bible, or even every one who undertakes to be its public expounder, will certainly be saved.​

And Jesus said, Matthew 10:28 UASV+

(28) Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. N13​
N13 Gehenna: (γέεννα geenna) occurs twelve times and is the Greek name for the Valley of Hinnom, southwest of Jerusalem (Jer. 7:31), where the horrendous worship of Moloch took place, and it was prophetically said that this was where dead bodies would be thrown. (Jer. 7:32; 19:6) It was an incinerator where trash and dead bodies were destroyed, not a place to be burned alive or tormented. Jesus and his disciples used Gehenna to symbolize eternal destruction, annihilation, or the “second death,” an eternal punishment of death.

Your understanding of the symbolic language in Revelation 20:10 needs to harmonise with the many literal verses that describe the second death as a permanent death and complete destruction. For example, Barnes Notes says:

This overthrow of the enemies of God and of the church will be “final.” Satan will be “cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, to be tormented day and night forever.” The beast and the false prophet are already there Rev_19:20; that is, they will have ceased long since, even before the beginning of the millennial period (Rev_19:20, compared with Rev_20:1-3), to have opposed the progress of truth in the world, and their power will have been brought to an end. Satan now, the last enemy, will be doomed to the same hopeless woe; and all the enemies that have ever opposed the church - in all forms of paganism, Mohammedanism, Popery, and delusion - will be destroyed forever. The world then will have peace; the church will have rest; the great triumph will have been achieved.​
 
Last edited:

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,898
5,972
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is a deliberate lie, and you know it (or are very stupid).
Quoting YOU:
"Most of the Book of Revelation is symbolic. John declares so in the very first verse:"

You say it's symbolic.

"Revelation 1:1 UASV+

(1) The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place; and he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,"

And then you admit it's literal!

Your apology accepted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Taken

keithr

Well-Known Member
Dec 4, 2020
2,003
541
113
Dorset
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
You say it's symbolic.

"Revelation 1:1 UASV+

(1) The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place; and he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,"

And then you admit it's literal!
I did not admit it is literal. What a ridiculous comment. Read what I wrote again - you don't seem to understand anything!

What do you think "presented it in signs" means? Other translations say "he signified it", i.e. he made it known by signs, or symbols. Barnes Notes comments:

And signified it - Ἐσήμανεν Esēmanen. He indicated it by signs and symbols. The word occurs in the New Testament only in Jhn_12:33; Jhn_18:32; Jhn_21:19; Act_11:28; Act_25:27, and in the passage before us, in all which places it is rendered “signify, signifying, or signified.” It properly refers to some sign, signal, or token by which anything is made known (compare Mat_26:28; Rom_4:11; Gen_9:12-13; Gen_17:11; Luk_2:12; 2Co_12:12; 1Co_14:22), and is a word most happily chosen to denote the manner in which the events referred to were to be communicated to John, for nearly the whole book is made up of signs and symbols.​

There's not much point in me continuing to try to explain it to you when you can't seem to understand such simple things, and you ignore so many verses of Scripture.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
30,021
15,766
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The parables Jesus told during this period of his ministry are remarkable for their emotional intensity. Love, anger, pity, anxiety, rejoicing, and sorrow continually jostle for prominence, spoken, of course, by a Jesus whose emotions were heightened as rejection by his own nation became increasingly inevitable and as the shadow of the cross lengthened across his path.

Derided by the Pharisees for their misunderstanding of his parable about the dishonest steward, he proceeded to tell another parable that addressed them, and their Sadducee colleagues, even more directly, if that were possible!

The parables Jesus told during this period of his ministry are remarkable for their emotional intensity. Love, anger, pity, anxiety, rejoicing, and sorrow…

Are Absolute…. TRUTH.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2018
30,021
15,766
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I did not admit it is literal.

…the manner in which the events referred to were to be communicated to John, for nearly the whole book is made up of signs and symbols.

John was Lifted UP, given the Point of View TO LOOK Down and SEE what Human Eyes Can NOT SEE.

There's not much point in me continuing to try to explain it to you when you can't seem to understand such simple things, and you ignore so many verses of Scripture.

Agree.

God IS LIGHT. SO Strong is His Light, a human Would Incinerate to merely LOOK at God!

The SON IS Light… SO Strong is His Light, a humans SIGHT would be Destroyed to STARE at Him.

A Lightening Bolt IS A Glimpse, A Flash for humans TO SEE, the Likeness of Gods PURE Light and Power… while Knowing God IS NOT a Lightening Bolt.

The SUN IS a Glimpse, a man Can SEE but NOT STARE at, and IS a Daily Recurring Reminder, of The LIGHT and POWER The SUN HAS and The SON IS,
While Knowing the SON is NOT the SUN.

The NIGHT is a Reminder…to Humans… Evil, Wickedness, IS … continually Present IN “THIS WORLD”…
And WHEN a human “SEES the MOON”…it is a Reminder…
The MOON is complete Darkness, Has NO Light of its Own.
It’s “appearance” of POWER to BE Humanly SEEN “as Light… IS ONLY a “Reflection of Gods Light, temporarily, partially shining upon the Moon”


Glory to God,
Taken
 

Jack

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
15,898
5,972
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I did not admit it is literal. What a ridiculous comment. Read what I wrote again - you don't seem to understand anything!

What do you think "presented it in signs" means? Other translations say "he signified it", i.e. he made it known by signs, or symbols. Barnes Notes comments:

And signified it - Ἐσήμανεν Esēmanen. He indicated it by signs and symbols. The word occurs in the New Testament only in Jhn_12:33; Jhn_18:32; Jhn_21:19; Act_11:28; Act_25:27, and in the passage before us, in all which places it is rendered “signify, signifying, or signified.” It properly refers to some sign, signal, or token by which anything is made known (compare Mat_26:28; Rom_4:11; Gen_9:12-13; Gen_17:11; Luk_2:12; 2Co_12:12; 1Co_14:22), and is a word most happily chosen to denote the manner in which the events referred to were to be communicated to John, for nearly the whole book is made up of signs and symbols.​

There's not much point in me continuing to try to explain it to you when you can't seem to understand such simple things, and you ignore so many verses of Scripture.
But I do understand. SYMBOLIC is the word JW's use when they don't like what God said.
 

Rich R

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2022
1,628
490
83
76
Julian, CA
julianbiblestudy.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Why do you presume it's a parable? When it's a parable, it will say so. Jesus doesn't preface the story of the rich man and Lazarus by saying it's a parable. Moreover, parables don't use specific names.
Heb 11:13,

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.​
Abraham was among the "these all die" in this verse, so he died.

And here's a few verses that would sure seem to preclude a conversation between Abraham and a rich man while in the grave:

Eccl 9:5,

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.​

Eccl 9:10,

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

Ps 6:5,

For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?​
Ps 30:9,

What profit [is there] in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?​
Isa 38:18,

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can [not] celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.​

Ps 115:17,

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.​
It's easy enough to trace the belief of life after death to the Egyptians and then to the Greeks. Moses never talked about it.
 

Rich R

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2022
1,628
490
83
76
Julian, CA
julianbiblestudy.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
And yet Moses and Elijah were pretty much alive during the transfiguration.

Difficult....
Jesus called the transfiguration a vision.

Matt 17:9,

And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.​
Also, why would Jesus have to raised from the dead if the dead aren't dead?
 

Rich R

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2022
1,628
490
83
76
Julian, CA
julianbiblestudy.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Yes, their physical bodies were buried but not their spirit.
Exactly what the ancient Egyptians and Greeks believed. But the Hebrews believed that the dead were dead.

Eccl 9:5,

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.​

Eccl 9:10,

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

Ps 6:5,

For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?​

Ps 30:9,

What profit [is there] in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?​

Isa 38:18,

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can [not] celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.​

Ps 115:17,

The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.​
What do you understand "spirit" to mean? It might be a good idea to see what it meant to the people to whom God wrote, i.e. Israel, an Ancient Near East people whose world view was much different than that of the modern West.
 
Last edited:

Jericho

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2023
905
983
93
51
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And here's a few verses that would sure seem to preclude a conversation between Abraham and a rich man while in the grave:

I would say those verses you quoted were written from a strictly human perspective on death, but they do not preclude an afterlife. I notice that you only quoted verses from the Old Testament. New Testament verses would seem to tell a different story. I posted these before, but I will do so again:

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2Co 5:8)

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43)

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2Co 2-4)

And he (Jesus) was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. (Mat 17:2-3)

If we take these verses at face value, then they clearly teach that life persists outside the physical body after death.

It's easy enough to trace the belief of life after death to the Egyptians and then to the Greeks. Moses never talked about it.

Moses never talked about the Church, the Holy Spirit, or bodily resurrection either. Not everything was revealed to the Old Testament saints.

Exactly what the ancient Egyptians and Greeks believed. But the Hebrews believed that the dead were dead.

How then would you explain the Witch of Endor (1Sa 28)? Saul went to see the Witch of Endor, who summoned the ghost or spirit of Samuel. You could argue it was a demon, delusion, trick, or whatever (even though the spirit accurately prophesied Saul and his sons would die in battle the next day). Regardless, it demonstrates that there was a belief in an afterlife beyond the grave even then.

As for the Egyptians, Egyptian culture and beliefs didn't develop in a vacuum. They were also influenced by their neighbors, including those in the Levant. If you suppose that the predominate Christian belief of the afterlife came from the Egyptians, it would call into question much of the New Testament, as it clearly demonstrates similar beliefs but puts them in a much different context.
 

Rich R

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2022
1,628
490
83
76
Julian, CA
julianbiblestudy.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
I would say those verses you quoted were written from a strictly human perspective on death, but they do not preclude an afterlife.
Well, it'd be a heck of an afterlife if we couldn't even praise God!
I notice that you only quoted verses from the Old Testament. New Testament verses would seem to tell a different story. I posted these before, but I will do so again:

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2Co 5:8)
I'd rather be with God and Jesus also, but that isn't going to happen until Jesus comes back again.

In a few places in his letters, Paul explained the sequence of events as to when the dead in Christ would rise from the dead, namely, when Jesus makes his second advent.

If they're not really dead, why would they need to rise? The whole idea of resurrection would have no meaning if the dead were not dead.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luk 23:43)
As you may know there was no punctuation in the original texts, so any punctuation would involve the interpreter's bias.

Here's another way it could be punctuated:

Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.​

Jesus spoke that on some unspecified day in the future, the thief would be with him, but not that very day. Did Jesus go to paradise that day? He didn't. He went to the grave which is hardly a paradise.
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2Co 2-4)
2 Cor 12:1 sets the context:

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.​
And he (Jesus) was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. (Mat 17:2-3)
Also a vision (Matt 17:9)
If we take these verses at face value, then they clearly teach that life persists outside the physical body after death.
Depends on what is considered "face value." Is "a vision" part of the face value? The placement of a comma in Matthew also greatly affects the face value.

I think the way I understand it does not require me to explain away many other verses, regardless of which testament they are in. I'm not sure that saying some are OT and others are NT is a good explanation. Especially so, when it is easy enough to make all verses, those in the OT and those in the NT, agree.
Moses never talked about the Church, the Holy Spirit, or bodily resurrection either. Not everything was revealed to the Old Testament saints.
That is true. But it doesn't mean everything said in the OT is invalid. I don't see anything in the NT that would negate the truth given in the OT regarding the state of the dead.
How then would you explain the Witch of Endor (1Sa 28)? Saul went to see the Witch of Endor, who summoned the ghost or spirit of Samuel. You could argue it was a demon, delusion, trick, or whatever (even though the spirit accurately prophesied Saul and his sons would die in battle the next day). Regardless, it demonstrates that there was a belief in an afterlife beyond the grave even then.
Yes there was a belief in the afterlife by some, but that doesn't make it true. The Jewish scriptures were clear on the state of the dead. It's not God's idea that Israel ignored His words and believed in life after death. After all, they were in Egypt for 400 years. God constantly reproved them for adopting Egyptian beliefs. What they believed is not a good yardstick for what God said.

1 Sam 28:7,

Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, [there is] a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.​
Would it make sense if a supposedly living dead man ("living dead man" - what does that even mean?) of God would be at the beck and call of a woman with a familiar spirit? It's also worth noting that verse 6 says that Yahweh refused to answer Saul's question.
As for the Egyptians, Egyptian culture and beliefs didn't develop in a vacuum. They were also influenced by their neighbors, including those in the Levant. If you suppose that the predominate Christian belief of the afterlife came from the Egyptians, it would call into question much of the New Testament, as it clearly demonstrates similar beliefs but puts them in a much different context.
So the question is, did Israel affect Egyptian and Greek beliefs, or the other way around. I might suggest the later since God constantly condemned Israel for that very thing.
 
Last edited:

Bladerunner

Active Member
Oct 5, 2024
502
142
43
75
SPARTA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Most of the Book of Revelation is symbolic. John declares so in the very first verse:

Revelation 1:1 UASV+
(1) The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place; and he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,​


Why are you ignoring what I posted in post #139 about the destruction of Satan, quoting from Ezekiel 28:

(16) By the abundance of your commerce, your insides were filled with violence, and you have sinned. Therefore I have cast you as profane out of God’s mountain. I have destroyed you, covering cherub, from the middle of the stones of fire.​
(17) Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty. You have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I have cast you to the ground. I have laid you before kings, that they may see you.​
(18) By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your commerce, you have profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought out a fire from the middle of you. It has devoured you. I have turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all those who see you.​
(19) All those who know you among the peoples will be astonished at you. You have become a terror, and you will exist no more.”’”​

So destruction does mean "cease to exist" - it clearly states that.


As usual you are completely missing (or ignoring) the point. Death will be no more because it was symbolically thrown into the lake of fire, causing it to no longer exist; similarly people who are thrown into the lake of fire will be destroyed and will exist no more. If you think that death will still apply to those not in God's Kingdom then you are right! They will die (the "second death"); they will not have eternal life and so they cannot be tortured forever.
Thus if you do not believe in the WORD of GOD except for those translations you decided He said, then you do not believe in the GOD I believe in.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
8,936
5,047
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
What a ridiculous comment. Read what I wrote again - you don't seem to understand anything!
Did you only just identify Jack’s comprehension issues? :no reply: He understands only one thing....that his theology cannot be wrong.....it’s a waste of time replying to him :boxx....he hears nothing but his own voice....it seems as if he thinks it’s God. :ummm: