The Sabbath Day

[GerhardEbersoehn]

traditions of men teach that the 4th Commandment (and really all 10) has been done away with; also that the Saturday has been changed to Sunday worship.

The Bible teaches none of that ... anywhere.

You really mean what you say? You believe the Sabbath OF THE LORD --- your --- GOD?!
Amazing. Praise the LORD.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, this last paragraph is mine and I believe that is what the Bible plainly teaches (of which you reject)

I only reject your misinterpretation of scripture, which results in works salvation, but I do not reject what the Bible plainly teaches after properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

(Note: For our other readers here, this quote can be found here). It’s good you recognize that faith (a belief in Jesus) saves but that is not the whole truth when you read the whole of your New Testament.

Spoken like a true works-salvationist. So saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, is not the whole truth? (Ephesians 2:8,9)

After we are saved by God’s grace without works (Initial Salvation) (Ephesians 2:8-9), we can see we must enter the Sanctification Process by the Spirit for salvation, too (See: 2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Sanctification is not about a process of ultimately being saved by works - "type 2 works salvation" as you teach. You seem to believe that Christ merely "initially" saved you by grace through faith, but now it's up to you to "ultimately" save yourself by works based on the merits of your performance and that really seems to tickle your ears.

Any fair and objective person reading the Bible can see that there are tons of verses that show that we must also live holy as a part of God’s plan of salvation.

So just how holy must you live "in addition" to placing your faith in Christ for salvation? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you were "holy enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? More "type 2 works salvation." Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers (Romans 3:24-28) yet you keep turning to supplements.

For we are told to follow after holiness without which no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

You misinterpret this verse to mean that if we are not "holy enough" (in of ourselves in addition to placing our faith in Christ for salvation) then we won't be saved. I can see how verses like this can really tickle the ears of those who view themselves as "holier than thou" and look down on others.

Now in regards to Hebrews 12:14, the NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. To be sanctified is to be "set apart/made holy." There it is. Without justification, there is no sanctification. In Hebrews 12:15, we read - See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God.. (NASB) The NIV reads - ..falls short of the grace of God.. The ESV reads - ..fails to obtain the grace of God.

James 2:24 says you are justified by works and not by faith alone, and yet you deny this verse by saying you believe in faith alone.

You misinterpret James 2:24 to mean that we are saved by works, in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6. Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists make the same error. As I already explained to you before, in James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. *THIS REMAINS YOUR ACHILLES HEEL.*

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *THAT IS CRYSTAL CLEAR.*

To sum it up man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:5-6; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

James 2:17 says faith without works is dead.

Faith without works is dead does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, yet lacks resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

Yet somehow you think you can be saved with a dead faith because you push faith alone (or a belief alone for salvation).

Faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is not a dead faith, but a living faith. Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and we are saved FOR good works but NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:10) You put the cart before the horse. Believers are saved apart from the merit of works, yet authentic faith that is alive in Christ does not remain apart from the presence of works. Hence, justified (shown to be righteous) by works.

But even the demons believe and tremble.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

Anyways, here are Works For Salvation Verses (After We are Saved By God’s Grace):

You misinterpret those verses to teach salvation by works (just like Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists do) in contradiction to other verses. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc..) Thank you for confirming my argument in post #54.

The Sabbath Day

 

[Robert Gwin]

Agreed, of course.

(If you'll grant me the liberty, I'd like to approach this as a conversation more than a contention. So you really shouldn't take anything I say as an attempted rebuke or any other such related personal opposition.)

Surely something as important as this would be stated unequivocally somewhere. And I simply don't find it anywhere. In contrast with the very spectacular drama surrounding the entire event of the giving of the law at Sinai, I find only vagueries in support of the now common "New Covenant" view of morality. And the various theologies that oppose the devolvemenmt of the 4th commandment upon Christians seem to differ from one another and only complement each other amid the effort to justify setting aside the commandment.

The entrance of hypocrisy into the discussion strikes me as odd since I find no occurrence of it in the way that modern Sabbath-keepers observe and teach the doctrine. If I misstep in keeping it, and no one chooses to come forth to stone me, should I somehow attempt to stone myself in order to avoid hypocrisy? Or, perhaps I'm misunderstanding your comment?

And generally speaking, I really don't understand why this objection always comes up since other commandments also warranted the death penalty during the theocracy of Israel. Also, since the wages of sin is death, all sin is either under a deferred death sentence, or imposed upon Christ Himself.

There is also the consideration of the phrase "let no man judge you in..." This is assumed by those who object to the 4th commandment as meaning "Let yourself not be bothered with..." After all, how can I keep someone else from judging me? The phrase could just as easily mean "Let no man stone you for..." according to the definitions given by the Greek lexicons. This leads back to the theocratical framework of government, which was largely concerned with the management of a traveling camp of possibly 2 million or more barbarians, since all sin has been worthy of death in all ages.

To my poor, finite mind, the more one thinks about the implications of altering or overturning the ten commandments, the more troublesome and numerous become the revelation of inevitable difficulties.

All things operate by law. God is unchanging and His law is a mirror of His character:

Righteous
* God—“The LORD is righteous in all His ways” (Psalms 145:17).
* Law—“All Your commandments are righteousness” (Psalms 119:172).

Truth
* God—“You have redeemed me, O LORD, God of truth” (Psalms 31:5).
* Law—“Your law is truth” (Psalms 119:142).

Goodness
* God—“Good and upright is the LORD” (Psalms 25:8).
* Law—“The law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good” (Romans 7:12).

Everlasting
* God—“Then Abraham called on the name of the LORD, the Everlasting God” (Genesis 21:33).
* Law—“All His precepts are sure, they are upheld forever and ever” (Psalms 111:7 8).

Holiness
* God—“Be holy, for I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16).
* Law—“Therefore the law is holy” (Romans 7:12).

Love
* God—“God is love” (1 John 4:8).
* Law—“Love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13: 10).

Perfection
* God—“You shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:48).
* Law—“The law of the LORDis perfect, restoring the soul” (Psalms 19:7).

Spiritual
* God—“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” (John 4:24).
* Law—“For we know that the law is spiritual” (Romans 7:14).

Just
* God—“He is the Rock. His work is perfect; for all His ways are justice” (Deuteronomy 32:4).
* Law—“The law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good” (Romans 7:12).

Light
* God—“God is light and in Him is no darkness at all” (1 John 1:5 ).
* Law—“The commandment is a lamp, and the law is light” (Proverbs 6:23).

The obvious differences we have in the interpretation of Daniel 9:27 aside, the point of my question was that there appears to be a discrepancy in the Sabbath-keeping history within the time period since C. T. Russell founded the Bible Student movement and the position you take on Sabbatarianism, isn't there?

This reply really has me scratching head, Bob. The two queries I posed here seem straightforward enough to me, anyway. Are we to believe that the Christian church as a whole was wrong in assuming that the 4th commandment was enjoining upon them? And isn't the question of whether or not main Kindom Hall worship services were held on Sunday quite the antithesis of a lengthy subject?

I, in turn, appreciate your kind attention, consideration, and feedback, Bob. You might just have earned a high-ranking position on my unwritten shortlist of people who are a pleasure to reason with. You are definitely winning people over with your polite and friendly manner of discussion. Sorry it took so long to get back to you (I've been very busy this week). I hope nothing I've presented here is offensive.

No sir, you certainly did not offend me and I certainly appreciate your candor and honesty.
When Christ died he was the end of the Law. Rom 10:4 So look at it like this, every single law of the covenant was repealed, compare it to a country having a complete overhaul, like when the British rejected their government here, and decided to form their own government. A new constitution was written and a new nation formed. That is an accurate comparison Barn, as that is exactly what happened. Mat 21:43; 1 Pet 2:7-10

The Law covenant was a tutor leading to Christ, and that is exactly what it did. When Christ was sacrificed, that fulfilled the purpose of the law. God now started a new nation, with a new constitution of laws, many of them the same as in the other covenant, as did the United States when they seceded from Britain. So all the laws recorded in the Bible from Jesus and the apostles are in force for Christians. The Sabbath was not carried over in print, and as we both agreed upon, was not to be judged among us if or how someone observed it.

We believe the covenant to be kept in force for the many was the law covenant, with the many being those under the law, to accept the new covenant, does this make any sense? Jesus was executed in 33CE half way through that week of years, so God continued to give His people time to convert from the law, to the new constitution of laws, or covenant that Jesus made with his apostles on the day of his death Luke 22:28,29.

Hope that helps Barn, and please do not ever think that I will be offended by a serious question. The Bible tells us that as Christians we have the full responsibility to make full proof of our ministry 2 Tim 4:5. I certainly love bearing testimony about my God and faith, and truly appreciate you giving me that opportunity sir. I fully believe every time we bear testimony, we are storing up treasures in heaven.

 

[Brakelite]

Galatians 2:16, " yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified."

I am tired of your legalism! Read your Bible!

It is no accident that a NT maxim says... The doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2:13

Interesting response. Aggressive.. Adamant... Accusatory. And all I did was quote one scripture text. And you think that your scripture text can shout louder than mine. In other words, Paul was being legalistic when he wrote to the Romans, and being gracious when writing to the Galatians. Why no attempt at harmonizing the 2 Jim?

 

[Brakelite]

The Law covenant was a tutor leading to Christ, and that is exactly what it did.

This is based on
KJV Galatians 3:24
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

I agree with this statement. The law leads to Christ. Now compare carefully that to
KJV Romans 10:4
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Does Romans 10:4 state that the law has ended, or that the law lead to Christ as in the first quote.

And what was the purpose of leading us to Christ? Righteousness. Christ is the goal of the law, the end purpose, the focal point of the law.... Christ our righteousness. All off which does nothing to the law except magnify the law, and make it honorable, which was God's purpose in sending His Son to die that we may be justified.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Judgments, Schmudgments. I'm used to that false accusation so don't expect to get any kind of reaction you might be hoping for.

We're all the same person: BarnyFife, Qoheleth, Barney Fife. Admin Sister Agelina can verify this. I can tag her if you want but I'd rather not bother her. I changed my username a month or so ago and then she changed it back (kinda) for me.

Your replies just got more and more childish until I had to assume you're just being a pest.

People love to chime in when the 4th commandment is being discussed. It generates a lot of hate (not that other things don't). People don't like being told that they might need to consider whether they are ignorantly involved in disobedience to God.

If you answer this in your usual "I know you are but what am I?" fashion instead of making a viable case against the 4th commandment (something that would make a good refutation of what I wrote in my reply to Brother Robert G. above), then we'll know what's going on here, I guess. Have at it, Ron.

So I don't misunderstand- you are the same as Qoheleth. YOu are both the same person just writing under different names?

Well as I desire to obey god, if the command to observe Sabbath was still in effect, I would cease from labor on Saturdays. remember the Sabbath did not include going to service from god! that is a man made tradition adopted after the return from the Babylonian/Median diaspora. but as there is not one command for teh Body of christ to observe Sabbath- we don't. O)ne is free to do so of course, but should not judge those who don't as Paul commanded in romans 14.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

...none of which has anything to do with the subject of the thread.

Are you now Jim B as well? Or have you been appointed the thread police and feel you must comment on anything I post to other people??

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, traditions of men teach that the 4th Commandment (and really all 10) has been done away with; also that the Saturday has been changed to Sunday worship.

The Bible teaches none of that ... anywhere.

YOU NEED TO TAKE IT UP WITH PAUL AND GOD!!!!

2 Corinthians 3:7-11
King James Version

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

tHE TEN WRITTEN IN STONE HAVE BEEN DONE AWAY ACCORDING TO GOD! iT IS RIGHT HERE IF YOU READ IT AS WRITTEN AND NOT REDEFINED.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I only reject your misinterpretation of scripture, which results in works salvation, but I do not reject what the Bible plainly teaches after properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

And I reject your statement here because it simply is not true.

No offense, but I believe you simply are blindly following what popular Candy Land Christianity teaches that justifies sin, darkness, and evil because you hold to the false interpretation on 1 John 1:8 that says: “we must sin daily, weekly, or monthly always in thought and deed the rest of our lives.” However, God cannot agree with this line of thinking because God is holy, and good. You simply cannot see it or you have buried your moral compass deep in the ground somewhere, and you need to dig for it and find it again (So as to be able to see what I am talking about). God is not only good just because the Bible says so. We know God is good by what He does, too. In other words, God’s Word reflecting the way you live reflects back upon God.

(Note: For our other readers here, this quote can be found here). It’s good you recognize that faith (a belief in Jesus) saves but that is not the whole truth when you read the whole of your New Testament.

Spoken like a true works-salvationist. So saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, is not the whole truth? (Ephesians 2:8,9)

And here you have fallen into the false accusations trap. I don’t believe in Works Salvation (implying that it is by Works Salvation alone) is what saves us anymore than there is an actual tooth fairy that exists. I believe it is both by God’s grace through a belief in the Savior, (Which includes believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and by the Sanctification Process (that follows which includes the works of God done through the believer) (2 Thessalonians 2:13). For you: No works are really necessary to save, and yet you contradict yourself and say that works will be evident of a true saving faith (Which shows works are a part of the salvation equation). Yet, while works is a part our Sanctification that saves, we know doing good works alone is not enough in Matthew 7:22-23 because certain believers who did good works in Christ’s name were told to depart from Him because they ALSO worked iniquity (sin). This means they justified sin like your belief does that says you must always sin this side of Heaven (Which contradicts Galatians 5:24 that says that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts, and which contradicts 1 Peter 4:1-2 that says that he [i.e. the believer] no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.). In other words, it’s not just works; For works are a part of the Sanctification of the Holy Spirit which also includes holy living.

Anyways, you asked me: So saved by grace through faith and not works is not the whole truth in Ephesians 2:8-9? Yes, it’s not the whole truth on the topic of salvation and you should know better by the tons of verses that makes that fact obvious that you have to either twist or ignore to your own destruction. I simply will refer you back to the 15 verses I posted in post #175 as just a tiny sample of verses that show this truth in the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sanctification is not about a process of ultimately being saved by works - "type 2 works salvation" as you teach. You seem to believe that Christ merely "initially" saved you by grace through faith, but now it's up to you to "ultimately" save yourself by works based on the merits of your performance and that really seems to tickle your ears.

Your partially right. Sanctification is not just about works. Sanctification includes putting away sins, keeping oneself unspotted from this world, and in living holy (Which is by the working of all three persons of the Trinity within a believer). So Sanctification is more than just about doing good works. It’s about living holy (of which you really don’t believe is possible in this life because you believe that the believer must always sin again this side of Heaven) which in essence turns God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). But God says be ye holy, for I am holy (1 Peter 1:16). In addition, Paul says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). Yet, you simply don’t believe 2 Corinthians 7:1 in what it plainly says. There is no perfecting holiness in the fear of God in your belief. Fear of God? Well, in your belief, you don’t need to fear God. You changed the word “fear” to mean something else.

What’s deliciously deceptive about the Perpetual Belief Alone-ism Camp is that they say that Sanctification saves only in the sense from the power of sin, and that it does not actually save a believer in regards to their soul in the afterlife. So they make it sound like they are for what the Bible says to a new unlearned believer who just plainly reads and believes his Bible; However, Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists do not correctly believe the Scriptures on Sanctification, and they teach Sanctification saves only from the power of sin as to subtly pull the new unlearned convert into their way of thinking (so as to justify sin).

As for Sanctification being a Process:

Yes, Sanctification is a Process because…

Sanctification is Progressive:

#1. 2 Corinthians 7:1 KJB
“Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.”

#2. Philippians 1:6 KJB
“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”

Context:

“And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;” (Philippians 1:9) (KJB).

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13) (KJB).

“That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15) (KJB).
​

#3. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 KJB (Part 1)
“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:”

2 Thessalonians 2:16-17 KJB (Part 2)
“Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.”

#4. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJB
“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

#5. 1 John 3:3 KJB
“And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”

Context:

“For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8).
​

#6. Ephesians 5:25-27 KJB
“...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”

Cross references:

“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.” (John 17:17-19).

“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you” (John 15:3).
​

#7. Hebrews 13:20-21 KJB
“Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen”

#8. Colossians 4:12 KJB
“Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.”

#9. 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 KJB
“And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.”

#10 Revelation 3:2 KJB
“Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.”

#11. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJB
“And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

#12. Hebrews 12:14 KJB
“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord”

#13. Titus 2:14 KJB
“Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”

#14. 1 John 2:5 KJB
“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.”

#15. James 1:21 KJB
“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.”

#16. 2 Timothy 2:21 KJB
“If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
​

Also, did you come up with the term “Type 2 Works Salvation”?
If so… it is not even accurate to describing what I believe because I believe we are initially saved by God’s grace and that is also the foundation upon which we are saved, as well. For if a believer sins, they do not do another work to be saved, but they confess of their sins to Jesus to be forgiven of that sin (Which is grace) (See: 1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9).

 

[GEN2REV]

tHE TEN WRITTEN IN STONE HAVE BEEN DONE AWAY ACCORDING TO GOD! iT IS RIGHT HERE IF YOU READ IT AS WRITTEN AND NOT REDEFINED.

That's perfectly fine, Ron, if that's what you believe.

That makes you a murderer, a robber, an adulterer, a demon worshiper, a liar and all the rest of the 9 Commandments that you swear on everything holy are no longer valid.

If you don't do any of those things, then you obey 9 of the 10 Commandments. There's no getting around that.

You wanna preach a totally unbalanced and unbiblical doctrine that makes you a heretic and discredits your Bible expertise, go right ahead.

You're a hypocrite then. If that's what makes you happy, who am I to mind?

Good luck with that and God bless.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sanctification is not about a process of ultimately being saved by works - "type 2 works salvation" as you teach. You seem to believe that Christ merely "initially" saved you by grace through faith, but now it's up to you to "ultimately" save yourself by works based on the merits of your performance and that really seems to tickle your ears.

First, God does the good works through the believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

Therefore, all boasting is in God or in all three persons of the Trinity, and not oneself. For Jesus said, we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).
It’s why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus.

Second, the tickling ears you mention (Which is actually itching ears) referenced in 2 Timothy 4:3 needs to be read in context to 2 Timothy 3:1-9 that talks about how in perilous times (Which I believe is today) men shall be unholy, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, and they will have a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. What power are they denying? Godliness. They don’t believe in truly living holy as the Bible describes it (Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1). Note: Itching ears means one’s ears are irritated. You might scratch an irritated spot on your skin. You are frustrated or uncomfortable with it and so you scratch it. This is what 2 Timothy 4:3 is saying. It means one is uncomfortable with what the Bible says. I believe you are uncomfortable with what Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, and 2 Corinthians 7:1 plainly says. So you seek to change them or ignore them because you don’t like what they say plainly. You itch and scratch in your hearing of these verses.

Three, the Bible does teach two aspects of salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9) (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

One is first saved by God's grace, and then they crucify the affections and lusts or the old master after they are saved by His grace in the Sanctification Process by the power of the Spirit. Yet, while Grace is initially how we are saved, it is also foundational (But it does not conflict with Sanctification).

Here are two pics I created to help illustrate this:

God's grace is a process of salvation without works because it is based on His mercy and grace, and redemption that He accomplished for us with His death, burial, and resurrection. We can come boldly unto the throne of grace, and obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need (Hebrews 4:15). God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). Being saved by God's grace is different than living righteously but yet they are connected. The Bible says we are saved by God's grace without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), and the Bible also says works are needed as a part of salvation (1 Peter 4:18-19) (Matthew 3:10), too. It's not a contradiction if one understands that the Bible is talking about different points in time for the believer.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sanctification is not about a process of ultimately being saved by works - "type 2 works salvation" as you teach. You seem to believe that Christ merely "initially" saved you by grace through faith, but now it's up to you to "ultimately" save yourself by works based on the merits of your performance and that really seems to tickle your ears.

Proof that there are two aspects or two different types of salvation:

Salvation by God's grace without works:

#1. Babies (who died) are saved by God's grace without works and without faith. They are saved purely by God’s grace.

#2. The thief on the cross was saved by God's grace through faith without works.

#3. Men who are about to die in a hospital bed can receive Jesus as their Savior and be saved without doing any kind of works
(Ephesians 2:8-9).​

Salvation by Sanctification, which includes putting away sin, doing good works, and living a holy life by the power of God (Which happens AFTER we are saved by God's grace):

#1. James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith without works save you? Obviously James is referring to what happens after we have been saved by God's grace otherwise James would be contradicting Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9.

#2. John the Baptist says axe is laid to the root of the tree, and therefore bring forth fruits worthy of repentance, otherwise one will be cut down and thrown into the fire (Matthew 3:10). So John the Baptist is saying you need to do good work or you will not be saved.

#3. Jesus talks about those who helped the poor in this life as entering the kingdom (Which is a good work), vs. those who did not help the poor in this life and they were told to depart into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:31-46). Obviously Jesus is saying this as a requirement for us to do as a part of being a part of His good kingdom. None of these things here on this particular list is in reference to salvation by God's grace without works as mentioned by the apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9.

​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sanctification is not about a process of ultimately being saved by works - "type 2 works salvation" as you teach. You seem to believe that Christ merely "initially" saved you by grace through faith, but now it's up to you to "ultimately" save yourself by works based on the merits of your performance and that really seems to tickle your ears.

Again, Ephesians 2:8-9 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 each describe two different aspects of salvation.

How so?

Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by God's grace without works. This is Initial Salvation because Ephesians 2:1 says you have been quickened (made alive) in context. How many times have you been quickened or made alive? I am hoping just one time. Ephesians 2:8 says this grace that we are saved by is like a gift of God. How many times do you receive a gift? Just one time, right? For generally people do not keep re-wrapping the same old gifts and keep giving it to the same person over, and over, and over again. That would be silly.

Paul tells the Corinthian believers in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 that they received the gospel (by which they are saved) is believing that Christ died for their sins, He was buried, and risen the third day.

Please reread 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Notice that Paul says that they RECEIVED the gospel and he delivered to the Corinthian believers this gospel FIRST. So this is an initial form of salvation.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 says there is a CALL of the gospel.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 describes this call in context.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen you to salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth. This is the call of the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14). Again, Paul says that the Corinthians believers first received the gospel by which they are saved. The gospel is how a person first gets saved (if one were to believe 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). So 2 Thessalonians 2:13 follows AFTER the gospel because verse 14 says it is a call of the gospel.

The salvation mentioned 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is not the same salvation mentioned in Ephesians 2:8-9.
Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about being initially saved by God's grace without works.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 is talking about what happens after the gospel (because it is a call of the gospel) and 2 Thessalonians 2:13 talks about the Sanctification of the Spirit. The Sanctification of the Spirit is living holy by the power of God over the course of one's life. There is no mention of grace without works in being saved in these verses. Neither does Ephesians 2:8-9 talk about being saved by the Sanctification of the Spirit. Two different things here if you were to read these verses and chapters in context and believe them plainly. To not see this is simply to deny what the Bible plainly says.

In addition 2 Thessalonians 2:12 describes the polar opposite thing mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13. It says they were damned who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. The opposite of this in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is belief of the truth and the Sanctification of the Spirit (Which is a part of God having chosen us for salvation).

In 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17, it describes faith (hope through grace) (verse 16), and works (verse 17) (Which again aligns with a belief of the truth and the Sanctification of the Spirit mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:13). This Sanctification of the Spirit is described in Romans 8:13. For Romans 8:13 says, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”.

Meaning: If you live after the flesh (sin), you will die (die spiritually), and if you through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body (put away sin by the Holy Spirit, i.e. Sanctification) you will live (live eternally).

 

[BarneyFife]

@Bible Highlighter,

You do realize you're posting in a thread about something you refuse to discuss but have featured in your signature, right? That looks kinda double bad on you. Just sayin'.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Bible Highlighter,

You do realize you're posting in a thread about something you refuse to discuss but have featured in your signature, right? That looks kinda double bad on you. Just sayin'.

There is a difference between endlessly arguing with individuals about the Sabbath vs. Speaking about how the Saturday Sabbath is no longer applicable in the New Testament with the body of believers in general (With many of them already accepting such a teaching and or those being more open to what you have to say because they have no Saturday Sabbath keeping religion in practice repeatedly). In short, I believe Titus 3:9 is saying not to get into an endless debate with a hardened Sabbatarian (Who is not open), or a person who beats their chest like gorilla in hatred over those who don’t accept the Saturday Sabbath as applicable for today.

 

[BarneyFife]

There is a difference between endlessly arguing with individuals about the Sabbath vs. Speaking about how the Saturday Sabbath is no longer applicable in the New Testament with the body of believers in general (With many of them being open to that possibility). In short, I believe Titus 3:9 is saying not to get into an endless debate with a hardened Sabbatarian (Who is not open), or a person who beats their chest like gorilla in hatred over those who don’t accept the Saturday Sabbath as applicable for today.

Of course. Your case is always a justifiable exception.

Didn't figure you'd be open to any honest criticism.

Sorry to bother you.

 

[BarneyFife]

Salvation by Sanctification

By the way, I don't think you're going to be able to sell this term without defining "by."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course. Your case is always a justifiable exception.

Didn't figure you'd be open to any honest criticism.

Sorry to bother you.

Sorry, it’s what I believe Titus 3:9 says.

We are told to preach the Word, and this would include Colossians 2:16. But our audience to whom we speak with is different (no angry Sabbatarians who want to debate with you), or our approach is different (no endless or heated debates with Sabbatarians) because of Titus 3:9. This does not mean we cannot teach open minded believers who are willing to accept the truth vs. arguing over it. This does not mean we cannot preach the truth in general (like to an open crowd or audience online) to others about how the Sabbath is no longer applicable.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

By the way, I don't think you're going to be able to sell this term without defining "by."

See my second picture I posted in post #232.
I also define it in the following sentence of the words you quoted in post #233.
In post #230, I describe how Sanctification is progressive, as well.