The sacrifice of Jesus....revisited

[PinSeeker]

You haven't told me why Jesus died on the cross.

That's a strange response. I mean, a) you didn't ask me that, and b) that's not what I'm speaking to. Again, the 'him' in the verse you pointed out does not refer to Satan. As I said, Revelation 20 (among other passages) tells us that the unrepentant suffer the same fate as a result of the final Judgment as Satan, following him into eternal damnation.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Taken]

could it be that God becoming a man was a sacrifice?.....and in blindness and ingratitude we murdered him.

God came in the LIKENESS AS A man, a particular man, ie a Jewish man.
Jesus was not a Human man.

Men can become in the LIKENESS AS God.
Men do not become God.

In Heaven Gods Word came forth “out of His mouth.”
God “prepared” a Body for His Word.
God “sent” that prepared Body to Earth.
God “established” a Relationship between God and His Word, for men on Earth to know, Gods Word present with men, is Gods presence with men.

Pretty handy...for God to send forth His Word out of His mouth, in the LIKENESS AS AN Earthly man......since it was precisely Earthly men, God wanted (Earthly men, SEE and HEAR His Word).

Remember how angry God was, in the OT, toward men who were being TOLD Gods Word, and men complaining.....Hearing alone was not sufficient? They wanted to SEE God? God called them stiffnecked.
We all know, any natural Human man who SEES God “as He is” WILL instantly Die.
We all know, God has the POWER to APPEAR in a “LIKENESS”, that human eyes CAN SEE, and understand, they ARE in the Presence of God.

That “prepared body”, was “prepared FOR Sacrifice”...and “was Sacrificed”

 

[quietthinker]

I agree. Answer your own question.

Grace and peace to you.

Man's justice is revenge/payback......God's justice is?.....c'mon, have a crack at it.

 

[PinSeeker]

Man's justice is revenge/payback......God's justice is?.....c'mon, have a crack at it.

Man's justice can be payback, but often is not. Even then, it is not necessarily sinful. Justice, in and of itself, is a good thing.

Now, man seeking to enact God's justice is a no-no; I would agree with you on that.

Beyond that, though, it sounds like your view of God's justice is... well, weak, a low view of His justice (though unintentionally so, possibly). But maybe not; let's hear your thoughts on it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Bob Estey]

That's a strange response. I mean, a) you didn't ask me that, and b) that's not what I'm speaking to. Again, the 'him' in the verse you pointed out does not refer to Satan. As I said, Revelation 20 (among other passages) tells us that the unrepentant suffer the same fate as a result of the final Judgment as Satan, following him into eternal damnation.

Grace and peace to you.

Strange question? Have you ever heard the phrase, "Jesus died for our sins"?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I'd say, through faith. He poured His out to take our sins away, a one time only occurrence, and the LAST sacrifice. He ain't going to do it again. And, can you imagine how very bloody these over and over sacrifices of bulls and goats was? Man, they sprinkled it over everything!, including the people...ick.

I don't see HOW this is done, but through faith

“He poured His out to take our sins away, a one time only occurrence, and the LAST sacrifice. He ain't going to do it again.” this has me really considering
1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Also Romans 12:1, and Philippians 4:18 which, honestly, has me so confused over “a one time only occurrence”
It leaves me asking which is more pleasing to God…sacrifice of the flesh or sacrifice of the spirit?

we apply his sacrifice by faith, yes, but how does God apply it?...the blood thing ie

i’m not sure what the question is? Here or in the OP?

 

[Lambano]

And, can you imagine how very bloody these over and over sacrifices of bulls and goats was? Man, they sprinkled it over everything!, including the people...ick.

My ex-Buddhist friend I told you about had actually seen a real Santeria sacrifice of a chicken. Defintely "ICK!" That was one of the reasons he had problems accepting the standard Christian models of the Atonement.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Some interesting questions arise with the sacrifice of Jesus ie, how is this to be understood?

1...Does God require a sacrifice as in the slaying of an innocent before he will forgive?

Nope - forgiveness is a simple act of the will - tearing up the I.O.U. you're holding against the person who sinned against you, as it were. God "Forgave" plenty of folks in the Old Testament. however their SIN remained on them. You can FORGIVE a theif - but that doesn't change the fact that he's still a theif.

2...If God is love and love keeps no record of wrongs as attested in 1 Cor. 13 ...in the light of this, how do we understand sacrifice?

SIN, eventhough it's FORGIVEN is still There present. you can forgive a person for sinning, but the fact remains that THEY SINNED. and while God IS "love", He's not a "Monolith". He's also a God of JUDGEMENT, Righteousness, and Vengeance depending on the circumstances.

3...What is it about shed blood and what is the connection to forgiveness?

No connection. In the OLD Testament, the blood of livestock served to COVER the existence of the SIN - temporarily. However Jesus SIN OFFERING at Calvary didn't COVER/HIDE the SIN - it CLEANSED IT, eliminating it perfectly so that we are CLEAN AND SINLESS before God.

Jesus' Death on the cross wasn't ABOUT "Forgiveness" - it was about CLEANSING us, and making us pure and justified.

 

[Enoch111]

Man's justice is revenge/payback......God's justice is?.....c'mon, have a crack at it.

God's justice is the full application of the just penalty for sins. There is always a penalty for violating any law. So the violation of God's laws results in death (Rom 6:23). But there are two deaths, and both deaths are included in that penalty. Therefore Christ paid the full penalty for the sins of the whole world on the cross. Thus He "took away" the sin of the world. This was justice applied not to the sinner but to his divine Substitute. Therefore God can be just as well as the justifier of the ungodly (who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ).

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus' Death on the cross wasn't ABOUT "Forgiveness" - it was about CLEANSING us, and making us pure and justified.

The shed blood of Christ was for the remission or forgiveness of sins: Jesus said: For this is my blood of the New Testament [Covenant], which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:28)

 

[Nancy]

My ex-Buddhist friend I told you about had actually seen a real Santeria sacrifice of a chicken. Defintely "ICK!" That was one of the reasons he had problems accepting the standard Christian models of the Atonement.

Ha! I can see why. It's the, you know - ick factor

 

[Nancy]

we apply his sacrifice by faith, yes, but how does God apply it?...the blood thing ie

I think some things are left to God alone as, our pea brains couldn't comprehend how He did all that He did. I'm just thinking that God does not need to apply anything as, He IS all in all.
Jesus sacrifice, His blood was poured out in place of ours to appease God's wrath upon us. Not sure what you are looking for here Q.T.

 

[quietthinker]

i’m not sure what the question is? Here or in the OP?

When the word 'sacrifice' is used it is unquestioningly connected to blood and some how we figure that forgiveness is activated because Jesus shed his blood.
Songs are sung about it, sermons are preached on it and it is assumed it is unquestionable.
How and why are those connections made?
Does God really require blood before he forgives??

If we take God's love for us seriously we need to understand why we murdered him. God did not kill Jesus, we did.....and God knew we would but he still came....and forgave and healed freely before any blood was shed.
Understanding God's heart ....a heart that would rather die than kill is the beginning of a window into a new understanding.

 

[quietthinker]

God's justice is the full application of the just penalty for sins. There is always a penalty for violating any law. So the violation of God's laws results in death (Rom 6:23). But there are two deaths, and both deaths are included in that penalty. Therefore Christ paid the full penalty for the sins of the whole world on the cross. Thus He "took away" the sin of the world. This was justice applied not to the sinner but to his divine Substitute. Therefore God can be just as well as the justifier of the ungodly (who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ).

Does this now mean that the whole Law thing is an arbitrary construct by which sin is measured? For according to much of Christian teaching the Law has been done away with.
If this is the case ie, the Law be done away with ie, scrapped, why wasn't it done away before it was given? because surely this is possible if it is arbitrary and transient.

No Law, no sin, no need for blood.

 

[quietthinker]

Jesus sacrifice, His blood was poured out in place of ours to appease God's wrath upon us. Not sure what you are looking for here Q.T.

Was God wrathful Nancy?....thats not the picture I get in Eden.....God came looking for the pair to reassure them he was not wrathful.
A&E thought he was wrathful....thats why they hid.....but they were wrong.

Much of Christian understanding is built on the premise that God was and is angry at fallen man and that he needs appeasing.....and that with blood. No different to the view that the Pagans had of God.

Jesus never mentioned anything about appeasement of an angry God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

When the word 'sacrifice' is used it is unquestioningly connected to blood and some how we figure that forgiveness is activated because Jesus shed his blood.
Songs are sung about it, sermons are preached on it and it is assumed it is unquestionable.
How and why are those connections made?
Does God really require blood before he forgives??

If we take God's love for us seriously we need to understand why we murdered him. God did not kill Jesus, we did.....and God knew we would but he still came....and forgave and healed freely before any blood was shed.
Understanding God's heart ....a heart that would rather die than kill is the beginning of a window into a new understanding.

I will consider what you’ve written. it is late here. Going to sleep. What you said about God being wrathful or needing appeased when looking for Adam and Eve. It makes me think of God desired mercy and not sacrifice. Maybe what He wanted was their trust that He is merciful and that whatever punish was needful for disobedience …to remain in His presence would be far better than hiding from His presence. Just thinking out loud. Thank you.

 

[Lambano]

God's justice is the full application of the just penalty for sins. There is always a penalty for violating any law. So the violation of God's laws results in death (Rom 6:23). But there are two deaths, and both deaths are included in that penalty. Therefore Christ paid the full penalty for the sins of the whole world on the cross. Thus He "took away" the sin of the world. This was justice applied not to the sinner but to his divine Substitute. Therefore God can be just as well as the justifier of the ungodly (who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ).

The problem I have with that is, how can killing an innocent man in the place of a guilty one EVER be considered "justice"? "The soul that sins shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4)

And if sins are forgiven, why is there still a penalty to be paid? If we forgive someone a debt, that means it's off the books, right?

 

[Lambano]

The shed blood of Christ was for the remission or forgiveness of sins: Jesus said: For this is my blood of the New Testament [Covenant], which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:28)

The word translated "remission" is ἄφεσις, "aphesis", which can also be translated as "forgiveness". It is cognate with ἀφίημι, "aphiemi", the verb "to forgive". So, you're right, Jesus did associate His death with forgiveness, but (agreeing with Mr. Carrabio), forgiveness should be a matter of the will. Why was Jesus's death necessary? How is it related to God's act of forgiving? Jesus instructed us to forgive each other; how does the symbolism of death apply to that situation?

BTW, Enoch, I love that you're using your "Red Letter Bible" in your quote.

 

[Lambano]

Much of Christian understanding is built on the premise that God was and is angry at fallen man and that he needs appeasing.....and that with blood. No different to the view that the Pagans had of God.

Yeah, my friend likened that to typical "corn god". I'm angry; sacrifice a virgin to me, or I'll send a draught and your crops will fail. Bwahahahahahaha!

But here's why I really, really avoid terms like "appeasement": It implies God was mad at these sinful humans, so He had his own Son brutally tortured to death, and now He feels a lot better. For God so hated the world that He killed His only begotten Son... Unh, unh. We lock up human fathers who do that.

 

[Lambano]

These last 4 posts of mine are just my way of saying that I find the Penal Substitution model of the Atonement to be lacking. The "Governmental" model has some merits. The "Example" model is useful as in "pick up your cross", but I don't see our own works as ever being atoning. The "Ransom" model gives Satan more power than he's entitled to. So, in summary, I have to say I don't understand God's ways. It's not the first time, and it certainly won't be the last.