You might check out these three podcasts....they might give some clarity. Give it a few seconds to load.
97 The Government of God Part One
98 The Government of God Part 2
99 The Government of God Part 3
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The sacrifice of Jesus....revisited
- Thread starter quietthinker
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97 The Government of God Part One
98 The Government of God Part 2
99 The Government of God Part 3
To answer your question:
1. The Lord Jesus Christ was not merely an "innocent man". He was the Lord from Heaven who chose to become the Lamb of God which God would provide for Himself.
2. The Bible says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Therefore the blood of clean animals was shed for the atonement for sins in the past. But atonement was literally the covering of sins only. However because Christ is God, He could take away the sin of the world by the sacrifice of Himself.
3. Since Christ voluntarily sacrificed Himself, the demands of God justice were fully met. So instead of you and I paying for our sins, Christ paid that penalty in full.
4. We do not look upon the sacrifice of Christ from the human perspective but from God's perspective. And that is presented to us in Scripture:
HEBREWS 10: CHRIST CHOSE TO BECOME THE ULTIMATE SACRIFICE
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when He [Christ] cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
2 Corinthians 5.21: "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
Do you believe that you are wiser than God? Was Christ a Substitute for sinners? Absolutely. Was there (and is there) a penalty for sins? Absolutely. So where are you getting your ideas from? Certainly not from Scripture. Beware of man-made doctrines.
LOL! Well, yes, I've heard that many times, Bob. You're clearly avoiding what I'm saying to you. So be it. Grace and peace to you.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
What about these verses, I could find many more about His wrath and anger..
Deuteronomy 9:8
"Even at Horeb you provoked the Lord to wrath, and the Lord was so angry with you that He would have destroyed you."
Exodus 32:10-11
"Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.” Then Moses entreated the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?"
Job 4:9
Verse Concepts
“By the breath of God they perish,
And by the blast of His anger they come to an end."
Psalm 78:59
"When God heard, He was filled with wrath
And greatly abhorred Israel;"
Psalm 89:38
"But You have cast off and rejected,
You have been full of wrath against Your anointed."
And, through Jesus, He had some hard sayings also. So, I can't agree Q.T., it's all over the bible.
Gods characteristics never change and, although we do not know what His final plan is, we DO know many of His characteristics.
God has characteristics and NEVER changes. He is Just, Forgiving, LONG-suffering, All knowing, All powerful, Holy, Eternal, Loving,
and Wrathful. Jesus went willingly to the cross, as He was obeying His Father in Heaven and knew He would be in His former glory after. There is no "life" without blood. The LIFE is IN the blood.
"...21In the same way, he sprinkled with blood the tabernacle and all the vessels used in worship.
Hebrews 9:20-21
22According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. "
God has a blood economy...one cannot even give birth on earth without blood as, there IS no life without it.
The blood represents life, and life is sacred to God....can't be life without it.
JMHO
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I don't have the answer to all your questions Nancy but what I do know is that those who wrote the OT had a limited view of what God was like and they wrote from that limitation.....they attributed to God what was assumed from their understanding.What about these verses, I could find many more about His wrath and anger..
Deuteronomy 9:8
"Even at Horeb you provoked the Lord to wrath, and the Lord was so angry with you that He would have destroyed you."
Exodus 32:10-11
"Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.” Then Moses entreated the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?"
Job 4:9
Verse Concepts
“By the breath of God they perish,
And by the blast of His anger they come to an end."
Psalm 78:59
"When God heard, He was filled with wrath
And greatly abhorred Israel;"
Psalm 89:38
"But You have cast off and rejected,
You have been full of wrath against Your anointed."
And, through Jesus, He had some hard sayings also. So, I can't agree Q.T., it's all over the bible.
Gods characteristics never change and, although we do not know what His final plan is, we DO know many of His characteristics.
God has characteristics and NEVER changes. He is Just, Forgiving, LONG-suffering, All knowing, All powerful, Holy, Eternal, Loving,
and Wrathful. Jesus went willingly to the cross, as He was obeying His Father in Heaven and knew He would be in His former glory after. There is no "life" without blood. The LIFE is IN the blood.
"...21In the same way, he sprinkled with blood the tabernacle and all the vessels used in worship.
Hebrews 9:20-21
22According to the law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. "
God has a blood economy...one cannot even give birth on earth without blood as, there IS no life without it.
The blood represents life, and life is sacred to God....can't be life without it.
JMHO
I've come to see some of these things recorded in a way that Satan has concealed himself even in scripture attributing many atrocities to God ......that's consistent with his style (and also hard to hear for those who think the scriptures contain no errors)
On the Mount of transfiguration Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus. Who knows what they spoke about; maybe his upcoming crucifixion?
The voice however that came from the Father did not say, listen to Moses or listen to Elijah, it said, listen to Jesus.
Jesus was/is the final revelation of how God is....not Moses, not Elijah or any body else.
Jesus does not order genocide, Jesus does not speak in the same terms as the texts you have quoted. In fact he presents a picture of God very different from how the Hebrews saw God. They also expected a totally different Messiah to how Jesus presented.
So what do we do? Dismiss sections of the OT? I don't think so. We need to endeavour to see these writings with the understanding that the Hebrews didn't have it altogether when it comes to knowing/understanding God.....even the prophets.
Jesus came to give us a direct view of how God is and how he operates.
Attempting to jamb the limitations of the OT Hebrew view of God into Jesus even though it was a witness to him (which the writers never understood well) results in cognitive dissonance ie, the practice of holding contradictory views simultaneously.
Paul tells us that all the promises of God are fulfilled in Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:20. That ought to give us some food for thought.
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Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Avoiding? I keep asking you what it means, that Jesus died for our sins, and I'm not getting an answer.
Okay, yes, to your non sequitur question. Yes, Jesus died to save us from our sins. Although that's a bit of a childish way to put it. He actually died to redeem us unto God, saving us from having to pay the wages of our sin, which is death. Actually, I think you were really asking that of kcknalp, and not me. Which brings me back to what I originally said to you, and you have repeatedly failed to address, for one reason or another.
What I was addressing was your statement that "When Jesus died, he rescued us from Satan, who could otherwise have tortured us forever because of our sins." kcknalp rightly called you out on this; the thought that people actually get tortured forever is ridiculous, and the thought that it would be Satan administering this torture is also ridiculous. Your scriptural reference ~ which kcknalp asked you for several times before you finally answered; this avoidance thing seems to be not just an isolated thing with you, by the way ~ was Matthew 10:28... "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." And my comment regarding that was that the 'him' in that verse does not refer to Satan, but rather to God. And I pointed out Revelation 20, which, among other passages, tells us that the unrepentant suffer the same fate as a result of the final Judgment as Satan, following him into eternal damnation and a state of utter ruination, which is the sense in which they are destroyed (not obliteration, or extinction, or annihilation).
Grace and peace to you.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
If something doesn't make sense to me, of course I'm going to question it. I trust God isn't going to get mad at me if I have honest questions. He's quite fond of me, you know. And He's fond of you too.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
It would be helpful if you understood why Jesus died for our sins. Maybe you should study this.
Which has nothing to do with your comment, "Satan would be able to torture us forever,"
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
God forgave Adam and Eve before any sacrifice... Before any blood. The sacrifice that clothed them was a type... It had no efficacy at all. But God looked upon their faith, and all those in the OT of like faith with Abraham, and accounted it as righteousness. Death doesn't satisfy God's wrath, it satisfies the broken law.
We aren't saved by anything other than our faith in God's word that states we are redeemed and justified by the blood of the Lamb. And God accounts us as righteous because of our trust in God's promises.
Why did Jesus die? I think we will be studying that for all eternity and still not getting to the depths of full appreciation.
LOL! As long as you think Jesus died for our sins so that Satan wouldn't be able to torture us forever, you're clearly the one who should learn about why Jesus died for our sin. Among probably quite a few other things. Wow.
Grace and peace to you, Bob. Especially grace, because you seem to be lacking of it.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
That's exactly why Jesus died for our sins. You still haven't answered my question.
No, it's not. Ergo, my statement that you're clearly the one who needs to learn about why Jesus died for our sin. As I said, Satan doesn't torture anybody. And beyond that, no one is actually "tortured." For those reside in hell for eternity, it will be a torturous experience, but no one will actually be "tortured" in any sense. At any rate, Jesus died for our sins so that we could be redeemed and reconciled to God. Paul is very clear in Romans 6:23, that the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. And of course there's John 3:16, that God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Well, I haven't answered it the way you want me to, I guess. But if I were to do that, that would be... wrong.
See above.I'm pretty sure, Bob, based on his past comments here, that he and I are in agreement, that he "figures" because he knows full well that, as I have said, the 'him' in Matthew 10:28 does not refer to Satan, but to God, the One we are to fear because He alone can destroy both soul and body in hell. In that passage, in the next four verses, Jesus mentions the Father three times. It's quite obvious Who Jesus is referring to. It's not Satan. And this is what you are yet still avoiding. So be it.
Grace and peace to you.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is.No, it's not. Ergo, my statement that you're clearly the one who needs to learn about why Jesus died for our sin. As I said, Satan doesn't torture anybody. And beyond that, no one is actually "tortured." For those reside in hell for eternity, it will be a torturous experience, but no one will actually be "tortured" in any sense. At any rate, Jesus died for our sins so that we could be redeemed and reconciled to God. Paul is very clear in Romans 6:23, that the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. And of course there's John 3:16, that God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Well, I haven't answered it the way you want me to, I guess. But if I were to do that, that would be... wrong.
I'm pretty sure, Bob, based on his past comments here, that he and I are in agreement, that he "figures" because he knows full well that, as I have said, the 'him' in Matthew 10:28 does not refer to Satan, but to God, the One we are to fear because He alone can destroy both soul and body in hell. In that passage, in the next four verses, Jesus mentions the Father three times. It's quite obvious Who Jesus is referring to. It's not Satan. And this is what you are yet still avoiding. So be it.
Grace and peace to you.
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