You are teaching a false gospel....You have confused what is wise with what is mandatory......"Surrendering' to the will of God is a great thing to do---- I did it 35 years ago--- but it did not save me ....I had been a Saved man for many years ....Saved because I simply Believed Paul's Gospel , the Gospel given to him personally by Jesus that is found in 1 Cor15;1-4....THAT is the entire recipe for Salvation....Paul warned about Adding to the Gospel---- you " Fall From Grace".... Tell me why you should not find yourself in this dangerous condition at this very moment....there are many things a growing ,maturing Believer SHOULD do--- when you proclaim that they HAVE to do something other than simply Believe that Jesus died for your son's and rose from the grave---- you are on VERY dangerous ground......you need to repent from your well-intentioned but False gospel
The salvation journey.
- Thread starter Faither
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
My schedule of events
1. We are bored dead in this world. In a state of condemnation as our status of being “in adam”
2. We eventually have earned our own condemnation when we commit our first sin (the penalty of sin is death)
3. Through the work of God. Through his creation (romans 1) through his people (their actions and their love draws us to God) through the work of the HS (conviction of sin righteousness and judgment) through Gods own work of helping us to understand our plight of deserving judgment) and through his word, either read or spoken through others (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word) we come to a point where we are forced to make a decision. Do we wish to trust what we have learned 9repent) or do we want to continue to walk in unbelief.
4 This state of being where we have the knowledge of truth, and are in the process of needing to make a decision can last for days, it can last for hours or it can last for years,
4a, the lost For some. We end up taking this decision to our death bed. For these we will be lost forever. But as Romans 1 says, they have no excuse
4b, the repentant. For others. They end up repenting, or changing their thinking about themselves (we admit we are sinners. Lost with no hope. Bankrupt in spirit) and our thinking that we are good people. Who do not deserve hell, that those sinners over there are evil, and we can do these works, go to church get baptized do this and that, and we will be ok. In repentance to understanding we are sinners, we have fallen short of Gods standard. And we have no hope. Because nothing we can do can change our state. Our only hope is God and his mercy and grace
5. Once we come to a state of repentance, in Faith (in assurance of everything we have now believes about us, about God and about his son) we call out to God from this broken state and recieve the gift of Life he came to give through his son.
6. At this point, those who were dead in trespasses and sin, are made alive (born again) through the spirit They are removed from the status of being “in adam” and are now in the status of being “in Christ” They are given the spirit as a pledge of Gods promise, this seal being sure until the day of redemption. And they are given eternal life. The promise that they will nto die in the end, but they will live forever
AT this point, he who through one sacrifice has perfected forever these people who have repented and come to faith in Christ, and have been saved by Gods grace, will be spending the rest of the lifetime being sanctified by the same God who perfected them forever by accrediting to them the righteousness of Christ, as he did Abraham on the day Abraham believed God. And those with the faith of Abraham are in the process of being sanctified by god and are given the assurance, that he who began a good work will complete it to the day of Christ.
1. We are bored dead in this world. In a state of condemnation as our status of being “in adam”
2. We eventually have earned our own condemnation when we commit our first sin (the penalty of sin is death)
3. Through the work of God. Through his creation (romans 1) through his people (their actions and their love draws us to God) through the work of the HS (conviction of sin righteousness and judgment) through Gods own work of helping us to understand our plight of deserving judgment) and through his word, either read or spoken through others (faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word) we come to a point where we are forced to make a decision. Do we wish to trust what we have learned 9repent) or do we want to continue to walk in unbelief.
4 This state of being where we have the knowledge of truth, and are in the process of needing to make a decision can last for days, it can last for hours or it can last for years,
4a, the lost For some. We end up taking this decision to our death bed. For these we will be lost forever. But as Romans 1 says, they have no excuse
4b, the repentant. For others. They end up repenting, or changing their thinking about themselves (we admit we are sinners. Lost with no hope. Bankrupt in spirit) and our thinking that we are good people. Who do not deserve hell, that those sinners over there are evil, and we can do these works, go to church get baptized do this and that, and we will be ok. In repentance to understanding we are sinners, we have fallen short of Gods standard. And we have no hope. Because nothing we can do can change our state. Our only hope is God and his mercy and grace
5. Once we come to a state of repentance, in Faith (in assurance of everything we have now believes about us, about God and about his son) we call out to God from this broken state and recieve the gift of Life he came to give through his son.
6. At this point, those who were dead in trespasses and sin, are made alive (born again) through the spirit They are removed from the status of being “in adam” and are now in the status of being “in Christ” They are given the spirit as a pledge of Gods promise, this seal being sure until the day of redemption. And they are given eternal life. The promise that they will nto die in the end, but they will live forever
AT this point, he who through one sacrifice has perfected forever these people who have repented and come to faith in Christ, and have been saved by Gods grace, will be spending the rest of the lifetime being sanctified by the same God who perfected them forever by accrediting to them the righteousness of Christ, as he did Abraham on the day Abraham believed God. And those with the faith of Abraham are in the process of being sanctified by god and are given the assurance, that he who began a good work will complete it to the day of Christ.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
We can’t surrender to God and change our lived apart from the spirit of God being put in us. All we can do at best is self righteousness. And being decieved that we have surrendered to God all the while refusing to surrender to Gods Gospel.
We must be born again first. So many peopel I know had to learn this the hard way. Myself included
The only problem is the words believe, believer, and believing are mistranslated words. The Greek word pisteuo couldn't be correctly translated into the English. The English doesn't have a corresponding verb to our noun "Faith" like the Greek does for its noun "pistis". This is very difficult to disassemble and would be a discussion for another thread.
This thread is about the salvation journey, the things that must happen, and the correct order in which they must happen. Please start at the fisrt happening and the state of being at that point in time and let me know if we're in agreement.
Here is the recap, do you agree with number 1)?
1) we're called by the Father.
2) We respond by a turning from our way to the direction of the caller in our minds. (repentant act)
3) We then take our first step of Faith or pisteuo towards God by making a genuine surrendering of our lives o Him, living a life inspired by such surrender. (still no Holy Spirit yet)
4) As a result of God Accepting the surrendered life as genuine, He moves the surrendered life (or first act of pisteuo) forward into the testing ground or parable of the sower. Here in the testing ground or parable of the sower, 3 out of the 4 surrendered lives will fail.
5) In the testing of the parable of the sower, 3 of the 4 surrendered lives will fail. But those 3 can begin the process again if the Father is still calling them and because they "didn't" have the Spirit of Christ yet.
The one "good" surrendered life produces something that causes God to move them into the next step, "the grafting process." The grafting process is where the "one good surrendered life" is like a small sprig that is grafted onto the main trunk of a tree.
The most important part of this "grafting on" is the very beginning when the sprig is first cut and then attached to the main trunk. The first period where the graft is taking or not taking is critical.
What is making the graft take? The continually surrendered life, living a life inspired by such surrender. This is the application of Faith, or pisteuo. If the surrendered life stops, the salvation stops.
6) As a result of fulfilling pisteuo by a continually surrendered life, living a life inspired by such surrender, the graft takes! As the result of the graft taking, God accepts the offered, tested, and grafted on surrendered life by sealing the Grace deposit in the that one good soil. ( We don't accept Him, He accepts us.) We have at this point now met the condition referenced in Rom. 8:9. We are now in Him, and He is now in Us. We belong to Christ, His word, and His promises now. We are now in a state of being where it is harder to get out of His will, than it is to stay in it.
We are in a state of continual perfecting by Him. A perfecting of our Faith, our pisteuo, our continually surrendered life.
Do you agree with no 1) ?
I can't agree with your take on the Parable of the Sower because it disregards what Jesus Himself says the parable means, as followsnotice the emphasis on hearing)
Luk 8:9-15 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? (10) And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. (11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. (12) Those by the way side are they that hear; then comes the devil, and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (14) And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. (15) But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
As you know, it is imperative that we align with Scripture rather than speculation.
You kind of entered into this discussion mid stream, are you in agreement with the first 3 steps?
LOVE is the “Engine” that drives Obedience.....I think most of what we see are “ dead works”.....things done to earn Salvation or things done to make sure you keep your Salvation....
I can't agree with your take on the Parable of the Sower because it disregards what Jesus Himself says the parable means, as follows
Luk 8:9-15 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? (10) And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. (11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. (12) Those by the way side are they that hear; then comes the devil, and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. (13) They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (14) And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. (15) But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
As you know, it is imperative that we align with Scripture rather than speculation.
Right, scripture as it was written in the Greek, not so much as in the English..
The Greek word used to communicate the word "Word" in the parable of the sower is "Logos" 3056. Logos is "an expression of thought- not the mere name of an object. As embodying a conception or idea." Strongs
The Greek word you are mistakenly trying to use for the parable of the sower is "Rhema" 4487 which "denotes something spoken, what is uttered in speech or writing.
The difference between Logos and Rhema is this. Logos is not referencing the spoken or written "word", it is referencing an individual scripture which "the Spirit brings to our remembrance" for use in time of need. The "word" the Spirit of Christ Himself. Rhema ( which is not used in the parable of the sower) is taking the "sword of the Spirit, which is the "word" of God". The spoken and the written word. Vines
The word "hearing" in the Greek is "Akouo" 191. Defined, "A verb that expresses an action or state "limited" to the subject." What is the subject? The Logos. The word that the Spirit of Christ brings to us internally.
In the salvation journey I'm not able to identify exactly how the Holy Spirit plays it's part in each individual step . I think we can get a glimpse of how the Spirit works by a deeper look into the parable of the sower or what i call the testing ground of Faith.
No speculation needed.
The other issue with trying to equate "the word" we have today with the "word" spoken of in the parable of the sower is this. When Jesus spoke the words in parable of the sower there was no "good news yet" . Christ had not made the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of the world yet. He hadn't died and resurrected yet. So the context (The gospel or good news) of which you were trying to use in the parable of the sower hadn't happened yet, so the "hearing of the word" doesn't make sense in the context your submitting.
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Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
@Faither , If you want to believe the Sower is sowing the Word made Flesh in the bodily human form, that is, the incarnation of Christ, you have serious issues of interpretation. The fact that the Parable of the Sower is given in the context of hearing obviates the scattered seed being the spoken Word of God, as heard when His Message is preached.
Listing from Vines Expository:
Word
1. logos (G3056) denotes
(I) "the expression of thought"—not the mere name of an object—
(a) as embodying a conception or idea, e.g., Luk_7:7; 1Co_14:9, 1Co_14:19;
(b) a saying or statement,
-(1) by God, e.g., Joh_15:25; Rom_9:9; Rom_9:28, RV, "word" (KJV, "work"); Gal_5:14; Heb_4:12;
-(2) by Christ, e.g., Mat_24:35 (plur.); Joh_2:22; Joh_4:41; Joh_14:23 (plur.); Joh_15:20.
In connection with (1) and (2) the phrase "the word of the Lord," i.e., the revealed will of God (very frequent in the OT), is used of a direct revelation given by Christ, 1Th_4:15; of the gospel, Act_8:25; Act_13:49; Act_15:35, Act_15:36; Act_16:32; Act_19:10; 1Th_1:8; 2Th_3:1; in this respect it is the message from the Lord, delivered with His authority and made effective by His power (cf. Act_10:36); for other instances relating to the gospel see Act_13:26; Act_14:3; Act_15:7; 1Co_1:18, RV; 2Co_2:17; 2Co_4:2; 2Co_5:19; 2Co_6:7; Gal_6:6; Eph_1:13; Php_2:16; Col_1:5; Heb_5:13; sometimes it is used as the sum of God's utterances, e.g., Mar_7:13; Joh_10:35; Rev_1:2, Rev_1:9; (c) discourse, speech, of instruction, etc., e.g., Act_2:40; 1Co_2:13; 1Co_12:8; 2Co_1:18; 1Th_1:5; 2Th_2:15; Heb_6:1, RV, marg.; doctrine, e.g., Mat_13:20; Col_3:16; 1Ti_4:6; 2Ti_1:13; Tit_1:9; 1Jn_2:7;
(II) "The Personal Word," a title of the Son of God; this identification is substantiated by the statements of doctrine in Joh_1:1-18, declaring in verses 1 and 2
-(1) His distinct and superfinite Personality,
-(2) His relation in the Godhead (pros, "with," not mere company, but the most intimate communion),
-(3) His deity; in Joh_1:3 His creative power; in Joh_1:14 His incarnation ("became flesh," expressing His voluntary act; not as KJV, "was made"), the reality and totality of His human nature, and His glory "as of the only begotten from the Father," RV (marg., "an only begotten from a father"), the absence of the article in each place lending stress to the nature and character of the relationship; His was the shekinah glory in open manifestation; Joh_1:18 consummates the identification: "the only-begotten Son (RV marg., many ancient authorities read "God only begotten,"), which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him," thus fulfilling the significance of the title "Logos," the "Word," the personal manifestation, not of a part of the divine nature, but of the whole deity (see IMAGE).
The title is used also in 1 John 1, "the Word of life" combining the two declarations in Joh_1:1 and Joh_1:4 and Rev_19:13 (for 1Jn_5:7 see THREE).
Listing from Vines Expository:
Word
1. logos (G3056) denotes
(I) "the expression of thought"—not the mere name of an object—
(a) as embodying a conception or idea, e.g., Luk_7:7; 1Co_14:9, 1Co_14:19;
(b) a saying or statement,
-(1) by God, e.g., Joh_15:25; Rom_9:9; Rom_9:28, RV, "word" (KJV, "work"); Gal_5:14; Heb_4:12;
-(2) by Christ, e.g., Mat_24:35 (plur.); Joh_2:22; Joh_4:41; Joh_14:23 (plur.); Joh_15:20.
In connection with (1) and (2) the phrase "the word of the Lord," i.e., the revealed will of God (very frequent in the OT), is used of a direct revelation given by Christ, 1Th_4:15; of the gospel, Act_8:25; Act_13:49; Act_15:35, Act_15:36; Act_16:32; Act_19:10; 1Th_1:8; 2Th_3:1; in this respect it is the message from the Lord, delivered with His authority and made effective by His power (cf. Act_10:36); for other instances relating to the gospel see Act_13:26; Act_14:3; Act_15:7; 1Co_1:18, RV; 2Co_2:17; 2Co_4:2; 2Co_5:19; 2Co_6:7; Gal_6:6; Eph_1:13; Php_2:16; Col_1:5; Heb_5:13; sometimes it is used as the sum of God's utterances, e.g., Mar_7:13; Joh_10:35; Rev_1:2, Rev_1:9; (c) discourse, speech, of instruction, etc., e.g., Act_2:40; 1Co_2:13; 1Co_12:8; 2Co_1:18; 1Th_1:5; 2Th_2:15; Heb_6:1, RV, marg.; doctrine, e.g., Mat_13:20; Col_3:16; 1Ti_4:6; 2Ti_1:13; Tit_1:9; 1Jn_2:7;
(II) "The Personal Word," a title of the Son of God; this identification is substantiated by the statements of doctrine in Joh_1:1-18, declaring in verses 1 and 2
-(1) His distinct and superfinite Personality,
-(2) His relation in the Godhead (pros, "with," not mere company, but the most intimate communion),
-(3) His deity; in Joh_1:3 His creative power; in Joh_1:14 His incarnation ("became flesh," expressing His voluntary act; not as KJV, "was made"), the reality and totality of His human nature, and His glory "as of the only begotten from the Father," RV (marg., "an only begotten from a father"), the absence of the article in each place lending stress to the nature and character of the relationship; His was the shekinah glory in open manifestation; Joh_1:18 consummates the identification: "the only-begotten Son (RV marg., many ancient authorities read "God only begotten,"), which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him," thus fulfilling the significance of the title "Logos," the "Word," the personal manifestation, not of a part of the divine nature, but of the whole deity (see IMAGE).
The title is used also in 1 John 1, "the Word of life" combining the two declarations in Joh_1:1 and Joh_1:4 and Rev_19:13 (for 1Jn_5:7 see THREE).
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
@Faither, FYI I've been in dialogue with God since early childhood and I have never doubted that Jesus Christ is who the Bible says He is, so as for your 3 steps . . .
1) we're called by the Father. Yes. Salvation is from the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit.
2) We respond by a turning from our way to the direction of the caller in our minds. (repentant act) Yes.
3) We then take our first step of Faith or pisteuo towards God by making a genuine surrendering of our lives to Him, Yes.
- living a life inspired by such surrender. Yes, with challenges.
- (still no Holy Spirit yet). No, see Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, Romans 8:9
Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, (14) who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
2Co 1:21-22 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, (22) who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
@Faither, You seem to be seeking affirmation for some sort of doctrinal formula that can be applied to everyone across the board. Perhaps you have looked at this link on the same subject.
Salvation Journey - Bible Study and Christian Teaching on the Meaning and Process of Salvation - Biblical Teachings
He is “ Parroting” the late, great Bible Teacher, Gene Scott who He refuse to discuss or give credit to .........he might mean well—-Im sure he does—- but he ain’t no Gene Scott.....Plus, he is twisting Dr.Scotts teachings.....Doc never claimed that “surrender” was mandatory for Salvation...read Galatians 1:8.......Faither is Teaching a Perverted and False Gospel ......The End for these types is not pretty ——- they are “ Accursed” ......damned by God.....you just don’t get to go around preaching a False Gospel .....God don’t like it, and you’d better stop it.....
I agree with Gods ORDER and WAY.
I agree with your intent.
The difficulty is:
God Does Not Change.
Gods Word Does Not Change.
Gods Word Does REVEAL more Knowledge.
Men DO Change by Physical Growth.
Men DO and DO NOT Change by Thought and Wisdom.
Gods ORDER and WAY Does Change,
..............PER a mans ACCEPTANCE of additional Knowledge Revealed.
Gods ORDER and WAY Does NOT Change,
............. PER a mans NON ACCEPTANCE of additional Knowledge Revealed.
The Difficulty of Understanding.....IS:
WHO can be SAVED and WHEN and WHY.
* A man WHO Accepts Gods ORDER and WAY...of Old Days...Mosaic Law...
.....SHALL BE SAVED, at his Physical Death.
* A man WHO Accepts Gods ORDER and WAY...of Christ’s Offering...
.....SHALL BE SAVED, BEFORE his Physical Death.
The Difficulty of CONVERSATION; in Understanding....IS;
* Scripture, Verses, Jesus’ Parables’ .... ALL are ONE SPEECH...
* YET:
~ In Part, Applies to a man Under the Mosaic Law (Jew)
~ In Part, Applies to a man not Under the Mosaic Law (Gentile)
~ In Part, Applies to a man (Jew or Gentile) in absolute Disbelief.
~ In Part, Applies to a man (Jew) belief In God, but Not Jesus the Christ.
~ In Part, Applies to a man (Jew) belief In God, In Jesus the Christ.
....But Not “Converted”....(ie NOT Confessed his Belief to the Lord)
....Or HAS “Converted”...(ie Confessed his Belief to the Lord)
~ In Part, Applies to a man (Gentile) belief In God, In Jesus the Christ...
....But Not “Converted”....(ie NOT Confessed his Belief to the Lord)
....Or HAS “Converted”.....(ie Confessed his Belief to the Lord)
Your INTENT...for the purpose of this Discussion, Appears to be fully Focused on .... A Gentile, WHO HAS Converted and the ORDER and WAY, that Gentile mans Conversion WAS Accomplished.
It gets side-tracked at some points, WHEN, Scripture, verses, portions thereof are introduced, THAT DO NOT APPLY to SUCH man.
Carry on.
False gospel? Nah.
IS Saved and SHALL BE Saved, are two different applications for two different circumstances.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yep
They forget we love because God loves first.
Anything down not out of love is sin. And a non believer can neither want to do good. Nor does he have the ability to do good.
The desire to do good, or to serve God comes after we are saved. Not before.
Before salvation the only thing we can give God is our soul, because unless we become as the tax collector. We will in no means go home justified.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
This "general obedience" is something you made up out of thin air. Obedience is obedience and no one is saved/justified apart from obeying God and nowhere in Romans 4 or anywhere else in the Bible is obedience ever defined as a work done to merit salvation. Noah building the ark, Naaman dipping, the blind man washing his eyes did not earn God's free gift no more than repenting and being baptized earns God's free gift.
It takes obedience (belief, repentance, confession, baptism) to become a Christian then once a Christian one must maintain "good works" (Titus 3:8; Ephesians 2:10) else the Christian will be unfruitful (Titus 3:14) and cut off as a unfruitful branch and cast into the fire (John 15:1-6). If obedience in believing repenting confessing being baptized to BECOME a Christian are works of merit then those required good works that must be MAINTAINED would equally be works of merit. Yet the Bible never defines obedience/good works as works of merit but are necessary requirements to receive and maintain the promise of the free gift of salvation.
As already pointed out Titus 3:5 "works of righteousness which we have done" refers to man doing his OWN righteousness (as saying sinner's prayer) that does NOT save rather than doing GOD'S righteousness (being water baptized/washing of regeneration) that DOES save.
Again, Romans 10:3 those Jews were lost because they went about establishing their OWN righteousness that does NOT save instead of obeying God's righteousness that DOES saved. Obviously all works are not alike as faith onlyist would have us wrongly believe. The work in obeying God's righteousness DOES save while the work in doing one's OWN righteousness does not save.
Obeying and doing GOD'S righteous commands to receive salvation is NOT the same thing as one doing his OWN righteousness to merit salvation.
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
This is not true
There is obedience out of faith and gratitude of being saved
then their is obedience as a means of getting, maintaining or keeping salvation.
True, If you do not obey the gospel. and become as the tax collector. You will not be saved
But if your doing works of obedience to try to be saved. Your trying to earn salvation. and you will not be saved either
Well you can interpret the word however you want. But your wrong
You do not get to change the word of God my friend
Paul said not by works of righteousness which we have done. PERIOD.
But by HIS MERCY
You do not get mercy when you work to earn it. You get a wage, a reward. or you incur debt because you have failed to meet the requirement.
the way you talk, you are trying to earn a wage, not receive a gift. You teach a works based self righteous gospel.
listening to you, Your not working out of gratitude, your working to gain something for yourself.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Obedience is obedience...one is either obeying God or not.
You then post "But if your doing works of obedience to try to be saved. Your trying to earn salvation." and your argument dies a horrible, painful death right here for obedience to God's will is not a work of merit as you call it. NOWHERE EVER does the Bible call obedience to God a work of merit. For if such were the case then God OWED Naaman his healing for Naaman's obedience in dipping 7 times therefore he healing was not of grace but a debt making this a "works based healing". Same with the blind man Jesus cured of his blindness by having him go and wash his eyes in the pool. God would have OWED Noah salvation from the flood for Noah's obedient work in building the ark. Therefore salvation from the flood was not a matter of grace but of debt making it a "work based salvation" from the flood.
You are defining obedience to God's will in a way the Bible does not in an effort to protect Luther's false faith onlyism.
"works of righteousness we have done" refers to man doing his OWN works to merit salvation and does not refer to obedience to God. In the Titus 3"5 these works of merit are CONTRASTED FROM water baptism (washing of regeneration). God commanded men to be water baptized and submitting to God's will in being water baptized is obedience, not a work of merit. Else in Acts 2:38 Peter was commanding them to do works of merit ("repent and be baptized") to have remission of sins.
Rom 10:3;
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."
Two types of works in this one verse;
1) establishing their OWN righteousness (does not save)
2) obeying GOD's righteousness (does save)
Obviously all works are not alike. This verse shows a work that does NOT save (doing your OWN righteousness) and a work that DOES save (obeying GOD'S commands). If obedience in "submitting unto God's righteousness" is a work of merit, then Paul is telling those Jews they were lost for not having done works of merit.
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
This has never been true. Whether in religion or in secular circles
People have always obeyed God or others under differentiating reasons.
I do not work for my company because I love my company. I work to earn a wage. so I can take care of my family.
At the same token, I work for my friends who need my help out of gratitude. I expect neither payment or anything in return for my work.
People do the same. They work for God in order to earn a wage or reward (in most cases, salvation) for a huge example. we can look to paul who called out the jews who tried to be circumcised to be saved. So even thought it was required for the old covenant. And many people do it because they are obaying God. It is not just obedience to God in which paul was calling out.
Most Christians do work out of gratitude and love for God. and expect nothing in return.
You yourself teach one must be baptized to be saved. So you are doing it to earn salvation. Myself and many thousands other of Christians do it out of gratitude and love for God. and expect nothing in return. They do it BECAUSE they were saved, Not in order to receive, earn or maintain salvation
As you say, Your argument fails miserably and suffers a horrific death, I already proved my point, and showed examples.
All you do is keep ignoring the obvious. And trying to show examples which do not prove your point
The mere fact Paul said if abraham was found by works, He incures debt proves that point. Not to mention the fact that that as I have posted numerous time, Grace and works do not mix. and we are saved by grace through faith not works.
As for Luther. I am not even sure he taught faith alone. Instead of trying to argue a point against someone long since dead. Why do you not sit and listen to the people you are talking to
We are saved by grace THROUGH faith not work
But true living faith is NEVER void of works.
We are not saved by faith plus works. in this lifetime or any lifetime. No matter what you say
Good God. Washing of regeneration is baptism of the HS not water baptism. Water baptism is a work of righteousness
Regeneration is new birth. Only God can make you born again.
You cause Paul to contradict himself. By saying he is saying works of righteousness is works to merit salvation. Then demand water baptism must be done to merit salvation.
you destroy your own argument
lol. Not by works of righteousness whihc we have done but BY HIS MERCY
If it is grace IT IS NO LONGER WORKS, otherwise Grace is no longer grace
For by GRACE we have been saved THROUGH FAITH. NOT OF WORKS. lest anyone should boast
You want to boast of your many works you do to earn salvation. Feel free.
I will boast in the work of God, who saved me. And continue to work for him out of gratitude and love for him. Not to gain something for my self.
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Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
Acts shows the Holy Spirit being given at the moment of true conversion, so your theology needs plenty of work.
You're arguing from a place of personal belief and not what the Bible says. James, Jesus, and Paul all agreed that obedience is proof that someone's faith is alive and valid. The fact that you think obedience "should" come after salvation only proves you don't know what salvation is or when it is given. Unless a person obeys God, they will not receive salvation.
Jesus told people in no uncertain terms within passages like Matt. 19:17 and Matt. 7:21 that salvation will not be given unconditionally, especially to people who insist on opposing His Father's will. How you think the salvation process should work is irrelevant. God makes the rules, not you, not me, not anybody else. Our responsibility as human beings is to follow those rules and believe what God says over what we personally feel.
You are also lying through your teeth when you try to equate doing what God says with self-righteousness, which again, only shows you don't know what self-righteousness is. Self-righteousness is elevating personal standards of morality as being more authoritative than God's commandments. Paul said the Orthodox Jews were self-righteous because they clung to traditions that were not supported by the scriptures and elevated them over God's commandments, just like every Catholic and Protestant do today.
Rom. 4 teaches no such thing, because Paul 100% agreed with Jesus in other letters that a Christian must remain obedient to God if they didn't want to disqualify themselves from receiving salvation:
"For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end," - Heb. 3:14
"And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister." - Col. 1:21-23
"Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you." - 1 Tim. 4:16
"But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them," - 2 Tim. 3:14
You're only options are to either admit that you're completely wrong or to act like Paul contradicted himself throughout his letters, which he obviously didn't do. Paul clearly taught faith + obedience = assurance of salvation, just like James, John, Peter, and Christ did.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
So which is it.Works prove faith is valid. Or works are required before faith?
You cant have it both ways?
God did make rules. He said if you commit one sin, you are cursed. And the penalty of that sin is death.
Remember, Adam ate a peace of fruit and the fall or this earth and mankind occured. You think your sins are not so bad? You do not know God very well then.
As you said, he made those rules. Not you or me.
If we could earn salvation by our works. Jesus would never have had to come to earth.
Self righteousness is this
To do righteous deeds for the benefit of self.
If your doing righteous deeds in an attempt to gain, earn or maintain salvation. You are producing self righteousness. God calls them bloody rags. If you try to give God those works as a means to pay for your sin. You will find your sins have not been remitted. And you will die in your sin.
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