The seed of Israel

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,498
685
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Preaching to the choir, Robert. I mean, the Bible talks about Jews and Gentiles as two separate people groups, so referring to them separately can't be avoided in that sense. But yes, God's Israel is one people, consisting of God's elect, people of every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Grace and peace to you.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Preaching to the choir, Robert. I mean, the Bible talks about Jews and Gentiles as two separate people groups, so referring to them separately can't be avoided in that sense. But yes, God's Israel is one people, consisting of God's elect, people of every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Grace and peace to you.
That is true. I see your point now. Thanks for sticking with me.

During the times of the apostles, 'Jews' and 'Gentiles' were still a separate group of people with specific identities, which in itself means nothing anymore to God. No more than Romans being a separate race than Greeks.

In terms of culture, race, etc...the nation of 'Israel' today is different from that of Syria, but pertaining to the promises of God to Abraham's seed, that is now confirmed only in Christ Jesus, there is no difference between any people born of flesh: they are all uncircumcised 'Philistines' before the risen God of Israel, who now sits forever on the throne of David.

With he cross and resurrection of Jesus, all flesh is once again concluded in sin by the one blood and seed of Adam, as before Abraham. There are different races, having different habitations and national or tribal character, but no difference in promises of God, I.e. Sociology 101:

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us.

In the things of God pertaining to the promise to Abraham's seed, the only people 'aside' from any other, is the circumcised Christian aside from all uncircumcised children of flesh, no matter what direct descendance they may claim.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is always some Scripture that concludes the matter, and it is usually one well known, but not fully understood until in the context of a dispute about Scripture:

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

1. All those left on earth after the last hour in Rev 14, who repented not to give God glory, shall wail because of Him and hide themselves in the dens of caves. (Rev 6)

2. All the kindreds of the earth are one children of flesh and kindred after the flesh. No distinction between 'Jew and Gentile'.

Jesus comes the 2nd time to receive His own unto Himself (John 14), not to convert the wicked unrepentant unbelievers. upon seeing Him and believing by sight.

As with the generation in the wilderness, so with this generation of unbelievers, they shall all be destroyed with the brightness of His coming:

Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

The wrath of the lamb will be upon all kindreds of the earth, after receiving His own in the likeness of His resurrection, whether it be this generation or the next.

Only those of the generation following His second coming, who believe with eyes of the heart, shall be allowed to come up see His face to worship and serve Him.

Ezekiel 44:9 will not be fulfilled until the generation after that destroyed on the earth, to enter into His rest, even as the generation following that destroyed in the wilderness entered into the land of promise.

The only hope any children of flesh have on earth, whether this generation or that generation at His appearing, is to repent and believe Jesus and give God glory, else this or that generation will wail and hide because of the destruction coming.

And the only hope any children of flesh will have after that generation, is to repent and believe Jesus from the heart, without sight of Him first.

No man sees the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, by sight of flesh, but only by eyes of the heart. (Acts 28:27)(Eph 1:18)

No man is allowed to break through and gaze upon the Lord, that they might believe. (Ex 19)

In this generation, after we believe, we see Him seated in heavenly places. At that generation following His return, after any believe, they shall see Him seated on His throne on earth.

This generation of saints that die in Christ and are alive and remaining at His return, will have part in the first resurrection, and the second death will have no power over them. In the generation following His return, the dead in Christ and those alive and remaining at the last loosing of Satan, will be found written in the Lamb's book of life at the judgement.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Cassandra

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. (Is 45:45)

All the seed of Israel in the Lord are justified with Him. All that are justified with the Lord are in Him and are seed of Israel.

All the seed of Israel are children of the God of Israel. All born of the God of Israel are the seed and children of the Israel of God.

There is no seed of Israel not born the children of the God of Israel, and are neither in Him nor justified with Him.

All Israel of God is now saved, because all that are of Israel are Israel. No more is there any of Israel that are not Israel, because all of Israel are born of the seed of the God of Israel: the Redeemer out of Sion has come, and the prophecy of His coming is fulfilled.

Unless,
The children of the God of Israel are not children of Israel.
The children of God of Israel born of His seed, are not the seed of Israel.
The holy olive tree of the God of Israel is not the Israel of God, or not all grafted into the olive tree of God are come in to the Israel of God.

If you are trying to say that saved gentiles are of the seed of Israel, the answer is no! Is. 45 is a future promise.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you are trying to say that saved gentiles are of the seed of Israel, the answer is no! Is. 45 is a future promise.
And I am not trying to say anything of the sort. I am saying plainly it is obviously so.

However, if you like, all believing Jesus are the children of Abraham, counted for the seed and children of promise.

So, who is this seed of Israel that is separate from that of Abraham, which seed is Christ?

saved gentiles

There are no saved Gentiles. Gentiles are the uncircumcised nations on earth, including the one calling itself Israel after the flesh. Those saved in Christ are called 'Christians'. At least according to NT Scriptures.

Is. 45 is a future promise.
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end...In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. (Is 45)

That future is now:

Eternal salvation by the everlasting gospel.

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.

Not ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious.


The seed of Abraham is the seed of Isaac is the seed of Jacob, also called Israel.

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

There is no seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with promise apart from Christ, because He is that promised seed.

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made...Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Try reading OT prophecy with NT eyes. It helps.

So, once again, what is this 'seed of Israel' apart from that of Abraham and of Christ?

Don't bother. I agree. Grafted in Christians are not that seed of Israel after the flesh, that has no promise nor profit with God today.

But you go on and keep prophesying to them good things about the 'future', that if they just manage to live long enough on earth to see it with their own eyes, and then believe by sight, they'll do just fine, though they abide today in unbelief. And then you can pray really hard the Lord comes the second time sooner than later, so that they don't die in their sins. Or, do they not go to hell with the rest of the unbelievers on earth? Is there really a 'purgatory' then, for a seed of flesh that refuses Christ today, so that they can walk with Him by sight in the 'future'?

no!


Also, try two or three exclamation points. It's much more impressive.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And I am not trying to say anything of the sort. I am saying plainly it is obviously so.

However, if you like, all believing Jesus are the children of Abraham, counted for the seed and children of promise.


OK. I wasn't sure, so I was simply asking!

But you go on and keep prophesying to them good things about the 'future', that if they just manage to live long enough on earth to see it with their own eyes, and then believe by sight, they'll do just fine, though they abide today in unbelief. And then you can pray really hard the Lord comes the second time sooner than later, so that they don't die in their sins. Or, do they not go to hell with the rest of the unbelievers on earth? Is there really a 'purgatory' then, for a seed of flesh that refuses Christ today, so that they can walk with Him by sight in the 'future'?

If you imply I am doing this- you are just blowing tons of verbal methane!

YOu seem to forget that God sees Israel in two ways- th enatural seed and the spiritual seed.
the natural seed which survives to teh end of the tribulation (the 1/3 of Zech 13) will all be saved and become the spiritual seed that inherits the kingdom promised.

But Jews are not gentiles, Paul makes that crystal clear! He also reminds in Romans 9 and Ro0mans 11 that god is not through with teh people of Israel.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
OK. I wasn't sure, so I was simply asking!



If you imply I am doing this- you are just blowing tons of verbal methane!

YOu seem to forget that God sees Israel in two ways- th enatural seed and the spiritual seed.
the natural seed which survives to teh end of the tribulation (the 1/3 of Zech 13) will all be saved and become the spiritual seed that inherits the kingdom promised.

But Jews are not gentiles, Paul makes that crystal clear! He also reminds in Romans 9 and Ro0mans 11 that god is not through with teh people of Israel.
I know your reasoning, which I once held, but it is flawed. I do concede the promise to the natural seed may not not finished, but not in the way you suggest.

This is my proposed teaching of prophecy pertaining to the natural children of Abram:

The only generation of that seed with promised covenant of God, made to Abram, will only be fulfilled in that generation following that which will be destroyed on earth with the brightness of His second coming.

There is no such hope for the children of Abram's flesh in this generation, at all.

Here is the argument from NT teaching of Scripture:

The children of Abraham are not the children of Abram, except any of them, along with all flesh of the earth, repent and believe Jesus.

The children of Abram, with promise of becoming a great nation on the land from Egypt to Euphrates are not the children of Abraham with promise of blessing in his seed, because that seed was only to be Christ (Gal 3:16), and now is only in Christ. (Gal 3:7)

That promised seed and children of Abraham is only them grafted into the green and holy olive tree of God, which is the house of Israel and of Judah. (Jerem 11:16-17) (Romans 11)

There is the natural seed of Abram after the flesh, but no natural seed of Abraham: Abraham's seed is only that of promise by faith, even as Isaac was. (Gal 4)

The promised covenant of a great nation on the land from Egypt to Euphrates was made to Abram and his natural seed. That was nominally fulfilled in David and Solomon pertaining to national boundary, but it was not fulfilled in being an outwardly and inwardly circumcised people doing service to the Lord reigning on earth.

That covenant in Ezek 40-48 to Abram's seed, was not confirmed with the generation of Jesus' day, when He first came to confirm it with the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Rom 15:8), nor will it be confirmed with the last generation at His second coming. They will be as the first generation in the wilderness, and the next generation in the days of His flesh: broken off and destroyed in the wrath of the Lamb.

The natural seed of Abram in the following generation, even as that of the wilderness, will be the ones with opportunity to believe on Him and enter into His rest, not by sight, but by faith of the heart, and will then be allowed to come up to see Him face to face on the earth and serve Him.

No person on earth is ever accepted of God through faith by sight, even as they cannot serve and walk with Him by sight. (2 Cor 5:7)

We see Jesus now seated in heavenly places, and they will see Jesus then seated on the throne of David.

At that time, and only at that time: the generation after His return, will any of Abram's children see their Redeemer sitting on the throne of David, and reigning over all nations on the earth.

However, any people on earth at this time have no such hope. Also, any born of flesh after the generation that will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming, that do repent and believe Jesus, will also be resurrected unto life at the last judgment. Their names will be found in the Lamb's book of life. Them that repent and believe Jesus before His second coming, will have part in the first resurrection and reign of Christ, to rule over the nations with a rod of iron.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
OK. I wasn't sure, so I was simply asking!



If you imply I am doing this- you are just blowing tons of verbal methane!

YOu seem to forget that God sees Israel in two ways- th enatural seed and the spiritual seed.
the natural seed which survives to teh end of the tribulation (the 1/3 of Zech 13) will all be saved and become the spiritual seed that inherits the kingdom promised.

But Jews are not gentiles, Paul makes that crystal clear! He also reminds in Romans 9 and Ro0mans 11 that god is not through with teh people of Israel.
But Jews are not gentiles.

No they are not. All that are Jews inwardly today with circumcision of Christ are no more uncircumcised 'Gentiles' on earth. There are no people on earth today called Jews by the risen God of Israel, instead He calls them Christians.

Romans 9 and Romans 11 say that God is not through with the people of Israel.

True. He is now building again the tabernacle of David (Acts 15) with a remnant people of Israel, also called Christians. The risen God of Israel started from scratch upon His resurrection, because all the old natural branches were broken off at the cross:

But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.

The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.


If you imply I am doing this- you are just blowing tons of verbal methane!

You are incredulous, because you do not turn to NT teaching of Scripture, when interpreting OT prophecy of Scripture, which is all fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Until you do so, you will not just be looking through a glass darkly, but will be looking at a vail of flesh that is all dark.

To prophesy to this generation good things to come for any unbelieving children of the flesh on earth, apart from faith in Christ and repentance of dead works, is to prophesy false things to come, and to help confirm them in a fool's covenant with death (Is 28:15).

There is no covenant with the God of Israel made with Abraham, that is not fulfilled in Christ. That covenant was first confirmed in Christ to Abraham (Gal 3:17), and is now fulfilled only in the risen Christ by faith.

The new covenant of Jesus Christ is the fulfilled covenant made to Abraham, and only believers with His testimony confirmed in them (1 Cor 1:6), are counted as the seed of promise and children of Abraham. (Rom 9:8)

If anyone tells any child of flesh today, that they have any hope of covenant of God to Abraham, by birth and circumcision of flesh, then they are lying to them, and telling them it is ok not to repent and believe Jesus, but to hope they are still alive and remaining on earth with His return in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The lie is that at His second coming, any flesh of Abram, just like any flesh left on earth, will believe by sight what they mockingly
demanded of Him the first time: to see Him not just come down off the cross, but to come down out of heaven:

He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

At this time, and at the day of the Lord coming in the clouds of heaven, all children of the flesh are all kindreds of the earth, including the one calling itself Israel after the flesh:

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
 
Last edited:

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
OK. I wasn't sure, so I was simply asking!



If you imply I am doing this- you are just blowing tons of verbal methane!

YOu seem to forget that God sees Israel in two ways- th enatural seed and the spiritual seed.
the natural seed which survives to teh end of the tribulation (the 1/3 of Zech 13) will all be saved and become the spiritual seed that inherits the kingdom promised.

But Jews are not gentiles, Paul makes that crystal clear! He also reminds in Romans 9 and Ro0mans 11 that god is not through with teh people of Israel.
You seem to forget that God sees Israel in two ways.

I don't 'forget' it. I reject it. Even as you ought. Just because people like to think God sees His Israel in two ways, doesn't mean that He does. He is, and always has been, of one eye over His people. (Matthew 6:22) Even as He has only one seed and nation on earth: His. The risen God of Israel's.

Israel after the flesh is not an Israel God sees as His anymore. All flesh that remains blind and unbelieving is the same on earth today: uncircumcised inhabiters of the earth. God does not 'see' and know them that are His on the Israel of His body, and yet see and know another Israel named so after the flesh.

And so, all such children of flesh and kindreds of the earth, continuing in their rejection of Jesus as the Christ to the day of His coming again, will not be rejoicing at the brightness of His coming, but will all be wailing at the wrath of the Lamb, and hiding themselves in dens of caves. (Rev 6)

Israel is the name given to Jacob having prevailed to become a prince by power with God (Gen 32:28), which is now seen in them that trust in Christ and are overcomers, even as He overcame:

Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

That is the 'spiritual' seed you speak of, walking in natural bodies after His steps: them born of the seed of God by the Spirit with circumcision of Christ by faith. That is the promised seed and children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They are the promised remnant of the children of Israel after the cross, not called Jews, but Christians, according to the prophecy of the LORD calling His people by a new name in Isaiah 62.

Even as our father Israel of old, we are the princes on earth that have power with God to prevail over all sin, and are made kings and priests unto Him by the blood of the Lamb.

That promised seed of the covenant with Abraham, from the beginning was Christ. That promised seed to Abraham was never the children of his flesh, even as they are not today:

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made.

They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Isaac was the promised son out of Abraham's bowels (Gen 15:4), and was born of faith after the Spirit, (Gal 4), but neither he nor Jacob was that one seed to come, in whom all nations would be blessed:

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Today, there is only one nation of Israel of God on earth: His holy nation in the flesh. Israel after the flesh are children of the flesh and are kindred with all uncircumcised nations on the earth. The outward circumcision they once had became uncircumcision at the cross. (Rom 2:28-29)

Today, while the day is, there is only one hope with the risen God of Abraham and of Israel for any generation of flesh on earth, including that of Abram: to repent and believe on Him. That includes this generation, the one before, and if He delay, the generation to come. If any delay believing Him, until His coming in the air, they will never be saved by faith, nor be confirmed in the promised covenant to Abram.

All NT Scripture shows how all OT prophecies to Abraham's seed are fulfilled in Christ with His first coming. (Gal 3:16)

And all OT prophesies to Abram's seed of flesh will be fulfilled by Christ with His second coming.

But, it will not be that generation seeing Him come with clouds and wailing because of His wrath. What Jesus says today to Abram's children, He says to all children of the flesh, while the day is today:

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

And so, to Abram's seed today, as to all seed and kindred of the earth, is the only choice we got is to believe Jesus now, because there will be no later for this generation upon His return.

Today, it's either glory or hell.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Israel after the flesh is not an Israel God sees as His anymore. All flesh that remains blind and unbelieving is the same on earth today: uncircumcised inhabiters of the earth. God does not 'see' and know them that are His on the Israel of His body, and yet see and know another Israel named so after the flesh.

Isaiah 62:4-7 KJV
4) Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
5) For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
6) I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,
7) And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

If we could only see into the celestial realm!

Much love!
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Isaiah 62:4-7 KJV
4) Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
5) For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
6) I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,
7) And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

If we could only see into the celestial realm!

Much love!
We sit in heavenly places and have Scripture of truth to guide us, so why shouldn't we see into the celestial realm?

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

And we have more Scripture to work with than Paul. Especially that of Revelation, which reveals all things of the celestial realm.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Micah 4:
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.


This prophesies the day of Jesus Christ, the Redeemer come out of Sion.

All the branches will first be broken off, so that there is neither root nor branch of the children of Israel on earth during the burial of the God of Israel's body.

Then with His resurrection, the wasted tabernacle of David will be built again of the remnant that believe and are grafted in to become the children of the house of Israel and of Judah.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,156
21,420
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We sit in heavenly places and have Scripture of truth to guide us, so why shouldn't we see into the celestial realm?

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

And we have more Scripture to work with than Paul. Especially that of Revelation, which reveals all things of the celestial realm.
More importantly to what I'm really trying to say here,

I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

Those watchmen must still be there! Calling out to God, endlessly, until He accomplish it.

Much love!
 

kcnalp

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2020
7,326
1,782
113
Indianapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The future of Israel wannabees:

Zechariah 14:12 (NKJV)
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

And then it gets worse:

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
More importantly to what I'm really trying to say here,

I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence, And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

Those watchmen must still be there! Calling out to God, endlessly, until He accomplish it.

Much love!
THen keep calling out to Him, Watchman!

And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

Cassandra

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2021
2,510
2,873
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ok. I got a problem here. If Israel was under a covenant relationship with God, and they are going to be saved, just because they are Israel, can somebody tell me why, in the Book of Revelation, are the tribes of Ephraim and Dan missing? Those two tribes were a part of Israel, part of the 10 lost tribes, but they are not mentioned. certainly, there are Danite and Ephraimite descendants out in the world to day. So they won't be saved, or how does that work? Wasn't the covenant made with them, too?
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,505
3,695
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I know your reasoning, which I once held, but it is flawed. I do concede the promise to the natural seed may not not finished, but not in the way you suggest.

This is my proposed teaching of prophecy pertaining to the natural children of Abram:

The only generation of that seed with promised covenant of God, made to Abram, will only be fulfilled in that generation following that which will be destroyed on earth with the brightness of His second coming.

There is no such hope for the children of Abram's flesh in this generation, at all.

Here is the argument from NT teaching of Scripture:

The children of Abraham are not the children of Abram, except any of them, along with all flesh of the earth, repent and believe Jesus.

The children of Abram, with promise of becoming a great nation on the land from Egypt to Euphrates are not the children of Abraham with promise of blessing in his seed, because that seed was only to be Christ (Gal 3:16), and now is only in Christ. (Gal 3:7)

That promised seed and children of Abraham is only them grafted into the green and holy olive tree of God, which is the house of Israel and of Judah. (Jerem 11:16-17) (Romans 11)

There is the natural seed of Abram after the flesh, but no natural seed of Abraham: Abraham's seed is only that of promise by faith, even as Isaac was. (Gal 4)

The promised covenant of a great nation on the land from Egypt to Euphrates was made to Abram and his natural seed. That was nominally fulfilled in David and Solomon pertaining to national boundary, but it was not fulfilled in being an outwardly and inwardly circumcised people doing service to the Lord reigning on earth.

That covenant in Ezek 40-48 to Abram's seed, was not confirmed with the generation of Jesus' day, when He first came to confirm it with the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Rom 15:8), nor will it be confirmed with the last generation at His second coming. They will be as the first generation in the wilderness, and the next generation in the days of His flesh: broken off and destroyed in the wrath of the Lamb.

The natural seed of Abram in the following generation, even as that of the wilderness, will be the ones with opportunity to believe on Him and enter into His rest, not by sight, but by faith of the heart, and will then be allowed to come up to see Him face to face on the earth and serve Him.

No person on earth is ever accepted of God through faith by sight, even as they cannot serve and walk with Him by sight. (2 Cor 5:7)

We see Jesus now seated in heavenly places, and they will see Jesus then seated on the throne of David.

At that time, and only at that time: the generation after His return, will any of Abram's children see their Redeemer sitting on the throne of David, and reigning over all nations on the earth.

However, any people on earth at this time have no such hope. Also, any born of flesh after the generation that will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming, that do repent and believe Jesus, will also be resurrected unto life at the last judgment. Their names will be found in the Lamb's book of life. Them that repent and believe Jesus before His second coming, will have part in the first resurrection and reign of Christ, to rule over the nations with a rod of iron.

I suggest nothing, I simply opost the Scriptures as written!

YOur proposed teaching (key YOURS) is a mish mosh of literal acceptance and allegorical interpretations and confusing definitions that seem to lead to crazed endings. I am not sure I can understand this well.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ok. I got a problem here. If Israel was under a covenant relationship with God, and they are going to be saved, just because they are Israel, can somebody tell me why, in the Book of Revelation, are the tribes of Ephraim and Dan missing? Those two tribes were a part of Israel, part of the 10 lost tribes, but they are not mentioned. certainly, there are Danite and Ephraimite descendants out in the world to day. So they won't be saved, or how does that work? Wasn't the covenant made with them, too?
Exactly. And you're not the one with the problem, but the problem is with them that continue to idolize a children of the flesh above other children of the flesh, for the sake of their own hard-studied scholarship in OT prophesies.

And all the NT Scriptures that keep popping up the contrary are just pesky little reminders to the contrary. They must either be ignored altogether, or be change into something different than what is plainly written. They must ignore or wrest NT Scriptures from their proper place in prophecy of Scripture.

The 12 tribes in Rev 7 are not those of old, and cannot be, because the stones of the high priest's garb were specifically written in Scripture to be that of the 12 tribes by flesh, and they cannot later be changed by Scripture, else Scripture contradicts itself.

The 12 tribes listed are the churches of God in Christ Jesus today: them that are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise in their foreheads, which is the seal of circumcision of Christ in the heart.

OT prophetic experts and scholars, favoring one blood of flesh over another, are respecter of persons contrary to the faith of Jesus (James 2:1). They need to have their vail of OT flesh circumcised by NT revelation.

Only Christians can possibly be the servants of the risen God of Israel, and they do not do so being born after the flesh, but only by walking after the Spirit in testimony to the Lamb of God.

OT scholars absolutely must ignore NT teaching of Scripture in order to keep propping up certain unbelievers as better than others, having a more special relationship with Jesus Christ by way of promise made to Abraham, who is not now their father at all.

The children of Abram, to whom that nation and land is promised will still come to pass after the destroyed generation of the Lamb's coming with wrath in the power of His brightness.

The generations of children of Abram following His coming onto earth, will then, and only then, have opportunity to believe Him by faith of heart, and be allowed to come before Him face to face to serve Him in the land promised to their father Abram.

The only hope of any generation today is in Christ Jesus, to become a child of Abraham by faith, including them born of Abram by flesh.

To tell any children of flesh today they have hope in the God of Abraham by birth and circumcision of flesh is a lie and a false prophecy of a covenant with death.

And they do so most eagerly to prove how much they love, respect, and honor children of Abram on earth today, who are not the children of Abraham, which is only by the faith of Abraham. They do them no favors at all, but aid in their destruction by continued blindness and unbelief, looking for a promise to Abram that will not come in nation nor in land to any children of flesh int his generation, nor in that to come at His appearing.

Jesus will not come to 'save' any children of flesh waiting for Him to do so on earth. He will come to recieve His own unto Himself in the first resurrection, and to destroy the wicked servants of that Wicked on on earth. Afterward, during His reign, then the generations following can become children's of Abraham by faith, not by sight, even as we, who see Jesus now in heavenly places, and they will see Him then on the throne of David: After they believe, not before.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cassandra