OK, I understand what you are saying I think! A mourning over uncovered sin? Like that? I think that's a good thing.
Thank you!
Much love!
The Sheep and the Goats
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Thank you!
Much love!
1 Peter 1:3-5 KJV
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Much love!
3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Much love!
I don’t know…I wouldn’t describe it as mourning. Maybe for two seconds, I guess. But after that it becomes a sort of…joy that He led you into truth and that you aren’t walking in darkness about it any more but are seeing the truth about yourself. It leads to forgiving others rather than grudging. And then, verses you saw and read but never yet really… ate? become bitter and so you start to hunger for true righteousness on the inside of your cup and you start asking and knocking.
OK, maybe now I understand. The bitterness you are describing is that moment when you realize the Bible is describing you, not just describing others?
And if you continue as you are, you remain in that bitterness, but if you repent it turns to sweetness?
Much love!
RR144
Well-Known Member
Hmm…for me, the bitterness did not leave until He calmed my flesh. I just wanted free from my flesh always controlling me.
That’s not as accurate as I can be. The bitterness left before that…the bitterness left when I gave up trying to fix it because I saw if it would be fixed He would have to do it. That’s when bitterness was replaced just by hunger and asking for what I saw I lacked.
These things are not very easy to articulate!
If the church be among the gathered nations, why would they not instead be identified by the Spirit being God's children?
Do you see this gathering as fulfilling the "rapture" of the church in 1 Thessalonians 4? These are identified as being "in Christ", so wouldn't that be the distinction?
Much love!
I realize that! I appreciate you explanations!
Is then the bitterness you are describing the feeling of your inability to do what you believed you must do, but could not?
Then you gave that up, and sought from the Lord what you lacked?
Much love!
Maybe…not sure. I think so. It all went on for so many years and it’s jumbled together with my unrenewed mind, my unhealed wounds, my misconceptions and fears, my lack of understanding, my strongholds, pockets of leaven. Sheesh, He sure does have His work cut out for Him!
RR144
Well-Known Member
This is how I see it. We know that the parable of the sheep and the goats belongs not to this Age, but to the coming Age of Messiah's reign, because the introduction declares this, saying, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the Throne of his glory, and before him shall be gathered all nations; and he shall separate them one from another as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats." Those sheep and goats will not include the Church, to whom the promise is, "When he shall appear, we also shall appear with him in glory" – sharing his Throne. (1 John 3:2)
The salvation of the Church will be finished before the salvation of the world will begin. Matthew 25:31-46 pictures the salvation of the world, showing us how every member of Adam's race will be on trial during the reign of Messiah and, by his obedience or disobedience to the light and knowledge then prevailing, he will be deciding his own everlasting future, either as a sheep or as a goat. It will require the entire one thousand years of Messiah's reign to complete the testing and separating work.
All then obedient will be recognized as children of God and brethren. All the disobedient will be reckoned as children of the Adversary and worthy to share his fate, because, under favorable conditions, they were rebellious. Such shall be destroyed with Satan in the Second Death, which is symbolically represented as fire, because fire is always destructive, never preservative. On the contrary, the sheep class at the conclusion of Messiah's reign will have reached perfection, the image and likeness of God, on the human plane. These will be invited to become the kings of earth under the Divine supervision – even as was Adam in his original perfection – crowned with glory and honor and set over the earthly creation. – Psalm 8:3-5.
The terms and conditions which will test and determine who will be sheep and who will be goats, who will be obedient or disobedient to the Divine regulations, will be mercy, kindness, love. The loving and sympathetic character is the only one which God purposes shall have eternal life, either on the heavenly or on the earthly plane – all having either the wolfish or devilish character, or even the goat character – of waywardness and unsubmissiveness, will be accounted unworthy of any further blessing after the close of the reign of Messiah. The testing then will not be as to believing or disbelieving, striving to do well or not striving to do well. The Church is dealt with now along such lines. God's dealings with us make allowances for our unwilling imperfections. But in the trial of the world in the future every man shall be tried according to his work, not according to his faith. In that time knowledge will have practically supplanted faith; hence faith will have no special rewards. Works will then have the rewards, and each member of the race will be expected to strive for perfect works and to be assistants of the Great King Emmanuel and his Bride, the Church on the spirit plane. Mankind will be enabled gradually to attain such perfection of mind and of body as will make perfect works possible. At the conclusion of the Millennial Age perfect works only will be rewarded.
The rewards that will be granted to the "sheep" class at the close of Messiah's Kingdom will be life eternal and possessors of the earthly Kingdom originally given to Adam, but lost through disobedience, and redeemed by the sacrifice of Jesus and restored by his Messianic reign, for which we pray, "Thy Kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as in heaven." Matthew 6:10
As for the "goat" class, their punishment will consist of destruction in fire, or destruction everlasting, the Second Death – the destruction which God has already determined for Satan and all who are his messengers and servants, after the manner of this goat class – because, with all the favorable opportunities, they failed to develop such characters as God could reward with life everlasting. The contrast is emphasized in verse 46. These (the goat class) shall go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous, the sheep class, into eternal life. The contrast is perfect. The one gets life to all eternity. The other gets the specified punishment of destruction to all eternity. The Greek word here translated punishment is kolasin, which signifies restraint, cutting off – in this case cutting off from life – Second Death. "The wages (punishment) of sin is death." - Romans 6:23
RR
Perhaps Jesus was speaking of this prophetic word found in Ezekiel 34: -
Perhaps Jesus was only addressing the second judgement mentioned in Ez 34, that of the separation of the Rams from the {He} Goats.
Perhaps you are missing the point of this parable. You have presented as far more complex parable with your comments.
I simply see the parable as a judgement of the "Saints" who call Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Those who have a Hebraic understanding and those who have a Grecian understanding of God's Salvation process and the requirements of being recognises as being righteous.
17‘And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats. 18Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the [c]residue of your pasture—and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? 19And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet.”
20‘Therefore thus says the Lord God to them: “Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24And I, the Lord, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the Lord, have spoken.
Perhaps Jesus was only addressing the second judgement mentioned in Ez 34, that of the separation of the Rams from the {He} Goats.
Perhaps you are missing the point of this parable. You have presented as far more complex parable with your comments.
I simply see the parable as a judgement of the "Saints" who call Jesus, "Lord, Lord." Those who have a Hebraic understanding and those who have a Grecian understanding of God's Salvation process and the requirements of being recognises as being righteous.
Abraham, father of many nations.
Taking upon oneself the same seed Abraham received, forward to inheritance of land....Christ’s kingdom...Finishing the gathering...
RR144
Well-Known Member
Seems to me you're mixing scriptures. Jesus comes with his angels (e.g. the Church). This is a Kingdom picture, during the millennial reign, the church is not among this class, as this class is made up of the world of mankind, OUTSIDE of the Church.
Nah, I am not mixed up with my understanding of where the church is and what is happening during the 1,000 years that the Satan and his cohorts are locked up in the bottomless pit. Christ reign over the earth is a Priestly reign, where he is drawing the peoples of the earth to himself. The picture you are presenting is mixed up with the pre-trib rapture theory where those raptured will return with Christ to rule the earth. Sound like this ruling of the returning pre-trib raptured "saints is not from the perspective of them having to have a servant heart which is the basis of the Separation of the Sheep from the Goats, both of whom call Jesus, "Lord, Lord," but the Goats Christ told in Matthew that He never knew them.
I wonder, if they were actually following Christ's example?
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You are saying the CHURCH is Not present on earth with Christ during His millennial reign?
Johann
Well-Known Member
And what exactly is "historical grammatical hermeneutics?"
Unto , [ epi (G1909) ergois (G2041)] - 'for good works.' "Good works" cannot be performed until we are new 'created unto' or for them. Paul never calls the works of the law "good works." We are not saved by, but created for, good works.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Mat_5:16; Act_9:36; 2Co_9:8; Col_1:10; 2Th_2:17; 1Ti_2:10, 1Ti_5:10, 1Ti_5:25; 1Ti_6:18; 2Ti_2:21, 2Ti_3:17; Tit_2:7, Tit_2:14, Tit_3:1, Tit_3:8, Tit_3:14; Heb_10:24, Heb_13:21; 1Pe_2:12
I like this statement.
The Chicago Statement On Biblical Hermeneutics
Written by J.I. Packer Summit I of the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy took place in Chicago on October 26-28, 1978 for the purpose of affirming afresh the doctrine of the inerrancy of Scripture, making clear the understanding of it and warning against its denial.
Article IX
We affirm that the term hermeneutics, which historically signified the rules of exegesis, may properly be extended to cover all that is involved in the process of perceiving what the biblical revelation means and how it bears on our lives.
We deny that the message of Scripture derives from, or is dictated by, the interpreter's understanding. Thus we deny that the "horizons" of the biblical writer and the interpreter may rightly "fuse" in such a way that what the text communicates to the interpreter is not ultimately controlled by the expressed meaning of the Scripture.
Article X
We affirm that Scripture communicates God's truth to us verbally through a wide variety of literary forms.
We deny that any of the limits of human language render Scripture inadequate to convey God's message.
Article XI
We affirm that translations of the text of Scripture can communicate knowledge of God across all temporal and cultural boundaries.
We deny that the meaning of biblical texts is so tied to the culture out of which they came that understanding of the same meaning in other cultures is impossible.
Article XII
We affirm that in the task of translating the Bible and teaching it in the context of each culture, only those functional equivalents which are faithful to the content of biblical teaching should be employed.
We deny the legitimacy of methods which either are insensitive to the demands of cross-cultural communication or distort biblical meaning in the process.
Article XIII
We affirm that awareness of the literary categories, formal and stylistic, of the various parts of Scripture is essential for proper exegesis, and hence we value genre criticism as one of the many disciplines of biblical study.
We deny that generic categories which negate historicity may rightly be imposed on biblical narratives which present themselves as factual.
Article XIV
We affirm that the biblical record of events, discourses and sayings, though presented in a variety of appropriate literary forms, corresponds to historical fact.
We deny that any event, discourse or saying reported in Scripture was invented by the biblical writers or by the traditions they incorporated.
Article XV
We affirm the necessity of interpreting the Bible according to its literal, or normal, sense. The literal sense is the grammatical-historical sense, that is, the meaning which the writer expressed. Interpretation according to the literal sense will take account of all figures of speech and literary forms found in the text.
We deny the legitimacy of any approach to Scripture that attributes to it meaning which the literal sense does not support.
Much love!
RR144
Well-Known Member
That is sad. I believe in the "rapture," i.e., the gathering of the Saints to Christ in the air during his second coming at the end of the Seventh Age just before the final judgement. I do not believe in the pre, mid or pre wrath rapture. I believe that God's wrath is a time of refining the Saints who are alive at that time.
