The Sheep and the Goats

[Huperetes]

I see you are STILL evading the Rev.20 Scripture which DEFINES THE GWT JUDGMENT AND LAKE OF FIRE EVENT HAPPENS ONLY AT THE END... OF CHRIST'S FUTURE THOUSAND YEARS REIGN.

You are very confused. I am not evading anything. In fact, it is you who are evading and ignoring the facts that disprove your claim. I have clearly shown that the hell that people are tormented in, is not the lake of fire. Re-read Rev 20. It states that hell will be CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. The wicked that are caught up in Rev 13:40-43 are not immediately cast into the lake of fire. They are cast into the hell shown in Luke 16:22-23. THAT hell will be cast into the lake of fire at the end in Rev 20.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I agree that the lake of fire only occurs after the millennium, at the second resurrection.

 

[marks]

The division between sheep and goats will be according their faith mainly.

This in in direct contradiction to Jesus' prophecy, though.

Reading through this thread I'm finding many simply don't believe what He said, and turn it into something else.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If you truly believe that Christ's faithful Church are 'judged' by their works, then that means you actually do not believe in His Grace that saves us.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
KJV


Rom 3:26-31
26 To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is He the God of the Jews only? is He not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, Which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
KJV

Our works in Christ follow us to heaven and make up our righteous garments, but they don't actually SAVE us. Likewise, our works that do not fit His foundation are burned, and not credited (see 1 Corinthians 3:10-15).

This demonstrates the problem. You have come to certain doctrinal conclusions, but those conclusions don't allow you to both maintain them, and to accept what this passage so plainly states.

So what are you do to? Change your doctrines, or change the Scriptures.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

We will ALL stand before Christ in either the first resurrection or the second, to be judged.

In the first, we will be judged by what we did with what we were given. The judgement will be to eternal life or an eternal life of shame.

In the second, we will be judged by how we treated others. The judgement will be to life or to the second death.

 

[Huperetes]

I can't find a single place in scripture that reveals a judgement where we are judged by anything other than works.
Can anyone else? We are saved by grace but it looks to me like the Lord is expecting some kind of return on his investment.

Mt 25:20-27
And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[marks]

We will ALL stand before Christ in either the first resurrection or the second, to be judged.

In the first, we will be judged by what we did with what we were given. The judgement will be to eternal life or eternal shame.

In the second, we will be judged by how we treated others. The judgement will be to life or to the second death.

What do you consider to be the difference between "eternal life" and "eternal shame"? Is the one who receives eternal shame eternally alive?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What do you consider to be the difference between "eternal life" and "eternal shame"? Is the one who receives eternal shame eternally alive?

Much love!

Hah! I changed it earlier in my first post in the other thread because I realized someone would ask that very question. I didn’t think to see if I needed to change it anywhere else. Eternal life or an eternal life of shame. I see one as “well done” and the other as the outer darkness.
But yes, IF they have received the Holy Spirit, they have eternal life. This highlights the importance of humility and fear of God and learning righteousness.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Most people, when they say they have been saved, mean they will live forever. But the complete gospel and parables have much more to say than that. So a smart man keeps himself as humble as he knows how to and fears God as he is learning righteousness.

 

[marks]

Most people, when they say they have been saved, mean they will live forever.

When I say saved, what I mean is "born from God", which means living forever in communion with Him. And I would encourage everyone to trust in His promises.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

When I say saved, what I mean is "born from God", which means living forever in communion with Him. And I would encourage everyone to trust in His promises.

Much love!

As long as a man also trusts the promises that are bitter to him as well as the promises that are pleasant to him, he will do fine, I think. After all, isn’t “you will be judged as you have judged“ a promise as well?

 

[marks]

As long as a man also trusts the promises that are bitter to him as well as the promises that are pleasant to him, he will do fine, I think. After all, isn’t “you will be judged as you have judged“ a promise as well?

What to you are the "bitter promises"?

And considering you judge me to be such a shallow Christian, who just cherrypicks from the Bible what ever soothes my flesh. That's what you think, right?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What to you are the "bitter promises"?

Much love!

Well, to my own taste, a lot of them have been bitter at various times, including the one I gave - you will be judged as you have judged.
Other times, “with the merciful He shows Himself merciful” has been bitter to me at various times.
Definitely a bitter one for me was that if I don’t forgive others He will not forgive me.
And this one turned extremely bitter to me - Therefore you have no excuse, you foolish person, everyone of you who passes judgment; for in that matter in which you judge someone else, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

 

[marks]

keeps himself as humble

Honesty with one's self. That's the only way I know to "keep yourself humble". Searing, brutal self-awarenes and honesty. And if you are honest with yourself, you will be humble.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well, to my own taste, a lot of them have been bitter at various times, including the one I gave - you will be judged as you have judged.
Other times, “with the merciful He shows Himself merciful” has been bitter to me at various times.
Definitely a bitter one for me was that if I don’t forgive others He will not forgive me.
And this one turned extremely bitter to me - Therefore you have no excuse, you foolish person, everyone of you who passes judgment; for in that matter in which you judge someone else, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

That's just it . . . to your own taste. And it has a lot to do with how you perceive God and yourself, and your relation to Him.

Our God is a consuming fire, to me, this provides great comfort! His promises are our roadmap to life, all of them!

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

it has a lot to do with how you perceive God and yourself

Absolutely!

 

[marks]

Other times, “with the merciful He shows Himself merciful” has been bitter to me at various times.

And this is because you see yourself at odds with the passage, and therefore under condemnation? Or because you find yourself unwilling to conform, and therefore it's command bitter?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And this is because you see yourself at odds with the passage, and therefore under condemnation? Or because you find yourself unwilling to conform, and therefore it's command bitter?

Much love!

Well, of course I have seen myself at odds at various times with all the verses I listed. I mean, not at first I didn’t. At first, I thought I was quite righteous and the problem was always everyone else. But I began to see myself and others more accurately. But even then, I could see when I didn’t do righteously. But that’s when you begin to hunger and so you ask for what you see you lack.
It’s the poor who hunger and ask. Those Who think they’re rich don’t ask. Why would they?

 

[marks]

Well, of course I have seen myself at odds at various times with all the verses I listed. I mean, not at first I didn’t. At first, I thought I was quite righteous and the problem was always everyone else. But I began to see myself and others more accurately. But even then, I could see when I didn’t do righteously. But that’s when you begin to hunger and so you ask for what you see you lack.
It’s the poor who hunger and ask. Those Who think they’re rich don’t ask. Why would they?

I'm really having a hard time understanding what you consider to be the "bitter promises", except when you use that as an accusation against others. That they ignore the "bitter promises". As you've said of me in the past.

What particular promise have you found to be bitter, and why?

Or was it just the distaste of finding you were wrong about yourself?

What I'm saying is this. If we look at "Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy", isn't that only going to be bitter to you if you are unwilling to show mercy?

Actually I think the core of this matter is in whether or not we trust in Christ alone for our salvation, justification, sanctification, glorification, everything. I'll receive reward or not, I'll be crowned with glory or not, because of what I do or not. But my justification is in Christ, not my "good behavior", as if we could do anything to turn back our unrighteousness, or add to Jesus' righteousness.

If you think you may flunk out of eternal life in glorious communion with God by some bad behavior, or if you head gets messed up, and that Christ Alone is insufficient, I can well see how these may be bitter.

A particularly angry man believes that unless he eradicates his anger God will toss him out, well, that can really cause some issues I think! I know! That used to be me. Anger and a whole host of things! But once I got that settled in my heart, that's where the real overcoming began.

"With the merciful He shows Himself merciful", it's like saying, If you put in a penny, He will return to you Billions. That's a great promise! Unless you think you can't, or won't.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm really having a hard time understanding what you consider to be the "bitter promises", except when you use that as an accusation against others. That they ignore the "bitter promises". As you've said of me in the past.

I wasn’t taking about you. I haven’t said you ignore the bitter promises. I’ve said if a man believes the promises (including the ones that aren’t as pleasant to him) that I think he will do just fine. I don’t ever recall saying: marks, you ignore the bitter promises. So…don’t know what you’re talking about there.

What particular promise have you found to be bitter, and why?

I answered the promises I found to be bitter at times. I guess I didn’t answer why specifically, so I can try to answer that. Bitter because….He uncovered unforgiveness in me, so then not being forgiven if I don’t forgive became bitter. It wasn’t bitter when I thought I was forgiving and loving. It became bitter when I saw that I wasn’t.
And…the verse about “you do the same things” became bitter, not when I thought I didn’t do those same things, it became bitter when I saw I did. Like when I held anger and resentment in my heart, when I learned it was to have murdered, then is when the verse became bitter to me.

Or was it just the distaste of finding you were wrong about yourself?

Well…yes, it’s distasteful to see you were wrong about yourself and that you are just as bad as everyone else, and sometimes even worse. You would never hunger for righteousness unless you saw you lacked it.

What I'm saying is this. If we look at "Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy", isn't that only going to be bitter to you if you are unwilling to show mercy?

Yes. That is exactly the point at which it becomes bitter - when you see that you can be unmerciful at times.

Actually I think the core of this matter is in whether or not we trust in Christ alone for our salvation, justification, sanctification, glorification, everything.

I don’t know how a man who hungers for and asks God for true righteousness in his inner man is not trusting Christ. I think it IS trusting Him if you ask for what you lack.

I'll receive reward or not, I'll be crowned with glory or not, because of what I do or not. But my justification is in Christ, not my "good behavior", as if we could do anything to turn back our unrighteousness, or add to Jesus' righteousness.

Well…”make no mistake, a righteous man does what is right.”

If you think you may flunk out of eternal life

No one who has received Gods Spirit can then not have eternal life. But in a great house there are both vessels of honor and dishonor.

in glorious communion with God by some bad behavior, or if you head gets messed up, and that Christ Alone is insufficient, I can well see how these may be bitter.

Mmm…if you keep yourself as humble as you are able to and you forgive and you don’t judge (especially those outside)you keep yourself safe.

A particularly angry man believes that unless he eradicates his anger God will toss him out, well, that can really cause some issues I think!

Yes, it can create issues. But if he is diligent to fear God, be humble, not judge, forgive, those are the things that keep him safe as he is learning righteousness.