The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[quietthinker]

It means you will surely die. The grave and hell are each forms of death.

now you're engaging the morph game!

 

[teamventure]

now you're engaging the morph game!

Well, a lot of people have a limited understanding of eternal death. They think that the idea of eternal torment means that the person in hell or the lake of fire has to be alive or they don't exist at all. Eternal death is a form of existing but they are dead.

 

[teamventure]

now you're engaging the morph game!

The fall in the garden caused the existience of both physical and spiritual death for mankind.

Genesis 2:17—“You Shall Surely Die”

 

[Earburner]

Well yes I agree with that when it comes down to technical details, but the main context of eternal torment is still there with the lake of fire.

It's not their torment that is eternal, but rather the smoke of their torment, that is eternal.
Hence my posting of the eternal nature of carbon atoms in the infinity of space.

 

[teamventure]

It's not their torment that is eternal, but rather the smoke of their torment, that is eternal.
Hence my posting of the eternal nature of carbon atoms in the infinity of space.

That's a stretch. It really doesn't make sense.
You are leaning on mans understanding instead of relying on God's.

 

[Earburner]

That's a stretch. It really doesn't make sense.
You are leaning on mans understanding instead of relying on God's.

Read the verse again. You will find that there are two different thoughts.
Rev. 14[11]
A. And the smoke OF their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
B. and [while they still have breath] they have no rest day nor night*, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

* Note: there is no day or night in "for ever and ever", aka- eternity.

 

[teamventure]

Read the verse again. You will find that there are two different thoughts.
Rev. 14[11]
A. And the smoke OF their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
B. and [while they still have breath] they have no rest day nor night*, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

* Note: there is no day or night in "for ever and ever", aka- eternity.

I take the word as plainly stated.

and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:11 KJV

It means what it says.

 

[Earburner]

Well, a lot of people have a limited understanding of eternal death. They think that the idea of eternal torment means that the person in hell or the lake of fire has to be alive or they don't exist at all. Eternal death is a form of existing but they are dead.

Actually no. No person, who has died without Christ, can have any form of eternal existence.
The first death for them is final. They will have perished without God's Grace for forgiveness of sins.
However, the second death is for Christians who have understood God's saving grace through the blood of Christ, but after they were made to be partakers of the divine nature, through the Gift of the Holy Spirit, they rejected Him.
Hebrews 10[23] Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised).
[24] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
[25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted [despised] the blood of the covenant, wherewith he WAS sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You will have a better understanding on this, when after you have discovered Who the first resurrection is, and who it is that now has part in it.

 

[teamventure]

Actually no. No person, who has died without Christ, can have any form of eternal existence.
The first death for them is final. They will have perished without God's Grace for forgiveness of sins.
However, the second death is for Christians who have understood God's saving grace through the blood of Christ, but after they were made to be partakers of the divine nature, through the Gift of the Holy Spirit, they rejected Him.
Hebrews 10[23] Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised).
[24] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
[25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted [despised] the blood of the covenant, wherewith he WAS sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

You will have a better understanding on this, when after you have discovered Who the first resurrection is, and who it is that now has part in it.

So the second death is only for those who have lost salvation but not for the general wicked? Oh my.

 

[Earburner]

I take the word as plainly stated.

and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:11 KJV

It means what it says.

I suppose it does according to our thoughts and our ways. Isaiah 55:8-9.
But, according to God, there is no day or night in eternity.
Rev.22[5] And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[teamventure]

I suppose it does according to our thoughts and our ways. Isaiah 55:8-9.
But, according to God, there is no day or night in eternity.
Rev.22[5] And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

That's a description of heaven. The verse I mentioned is a description of the lake of fire.

 

[quietthinker]

Read the verse again. You will find that there are two different thoughts.
Rev. 14[11]
A. And the smoke OF their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
B. and [while they still have breath] they have no rest day nor night*, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

* Note: there is no day or night in "for ever and ever", aka- eternity.

Here we go; two very informative podcasts on idioms and symbols...enjoy!
101 Idioms and the Bible Part One
102 Idioms and Symbols of the Bible Part Two

 

[Earburner]

That's a description of heaven. The verse I mentioned is a description of the lake of fire.

Well, where is God's Heaven?
Past Jupiter, Pluto, or maybe in another galaxy?
No, it's right here, in another dimension.

I explained what the LoF is. God Himself is an eternal all consuming fire.
Therefore, when Jesus does return from Heaven, He will be "in flaming fire, taking vengeance on all who do not obey the gospel of Christ". In case you didn't notice, "all" is everyone and everywhere that live on this planet. The entirety of it will be in flames of fervent heat, even melting the earth on which we stand.

 

[Earburner]

So the second death is only for those who have lost salvation but not for the general wicked? Oh my.

"Remember Lot's wife"

 

[Earburner]

I adhere to the whole of scripture instead of ignoring multiple passeges already posted in this thread that point to hell being eternal, and you should take note of the very scripture you posted, your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, which is what you're doing instead of taking the scripture as plainly stated.

Let's not be myopic or foolish over the scriptures.
God is a Spirit, therefore for everything that is tangible and practical in and of this world, His thoughts and ways about it (through His use of our words), is going to come to us with the values of His Eternal and flawless Spiritual meaning of His Mind.
He Gave to us His Mind in the person of His Holy Spirit, aka the Mind of Christ.

Unfortunately, many Christians approach the Bible with their own mind, and attempt to discern and interpret it accordingly.
Isaiah 55:8-9
Zechariah 4:6
John 16:13

 

[Earburner]

Thank God that the Holy Spirit through Paul used the word "inspiration" and not literation.
2Tim.3[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Otherwise, there would be alot of Christians with missing eyes and numerous appendages.
Matthew 5:29-30

"Inspiration"
Strong's Number - G2315
Greek: θεόπνευστος
Transliteration: theopneustos
Pronunciation: theh-op'-nyoo-stos
Definition: From G2316 and a presumed derivative of G4154; divinely breathed in: - given by inspiration of God.
KJV Usage: given by inspiration of God (1x).
Occurs: 1
In verses: 1
Iows, divinely breathed thoughts from His thoughts and ways, applying it through our lowly languages of human words. Isaiah 55:8-9.
Edit:
Here is something to think about:
Since God the Father is a spirit, and not a man, that would mean that He Himself does not have vocal cords, but.......God the Son does.

 

[teamventure]

"Remember Lot's wife"

I remember Lot's wife.
The lake of fire is also for the general wicked, that was my point.

 

[teamventure]

Let's not be myopic or foolish over the scriptures.
God is a Spirit, therefore for everything that is tangible and practical in and of this world, His thoughts and ways about it (through His use of our words), is going to come to us with the values of His Eternal and flawless Spiritual meaning of His Mind.
He Gave to us His Mind in the person of His Holy Spirit, aka the Mind of Christ.

Unfortunately, many Christians approach the Bible with their own mind, and attempt to discern and interpret it accordingly.
Isaiah 55:8-9
Zechariah 4:6
John 16:13

You are going in circles.
Not taking the scripture as plainly stated is trying to discern it with your own understanding.
You are doing the very thing you say those who disagree with you are doing.

 

[Earburner]

You are going in circles.
Not taking the scripture as plainly stated is trying to discern it with your own understanding.
You are doing the very thing you say those who disagree with you are doing.

Then Matthew 5:29-30 should be taken literally, as it is plainly stated?? I doubt it very much!

Lot's wife was a member of Lot's family, who were the only ones who were spared from God's fiery inferno upon Sodom and Gomorrah.
She chose to despise her salvation in that moment, by looking back towards Sodom. She revealed where her heart really was.
That situation is very relative to our salvation through faith in Christ.
Hebrews 10:23-29, is the detailed account of what the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit looks like, of which ONLY Christians can commit.

 

[teamventure]

Then Matthew 5:29-30 should be taken literally, as it is plainly stated?? I doubt it very much!.

That's because the verse in matt is obviously symbolic, but when the Bible talks about eternal torment, it means just that, not some odd metaphor that means something less severe.
As plainly stated means literal where it is implied and symbolic when it is implied.