The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[Phoneman777]

Then Samuel said:

“So why do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy?"
(1 Samuel 28:6)​

you are an interesting person, tele-human.
interesting in the creepiest sense of the word.

Solomon says it couldn't have been Samuel. So does Job.

Did you ever read in Job where it says the dead will not be raised out of their sleep? Or, where he says the dead don't know or perceive? Or, where Job says a dead man shall return no more to his house?

What about Solomon? He said the dead don't know anything and have nothing to do with King Saul or anything else "under the sun".

It was a "familiar spirit" aka "demon spirit impersonating someone".

 

[Phoneman777]

this is an incorrect use of language.

Jesus IS

contrary to your preaching, Jesus does not cease to exist. Jesus is not annihilated.
He is the Almighty God, from everlasting to everlasting. Jesus Christ is I AM.

that's kind of the key to your debauchery -- if you did not reject Him, all your thinking would become right.
as it is, tho . . .

You seem to have totally missed what I meant by "Jesus was..." Try checking the post I was responding to.

 

[kcnalp]

Satan LOVES it when people don't believe in the eternal Hell fire. He want's our company "forever and ever"!

 

[post]

Solomon says it couldn't have been Samuel. So does Job.

no; they don't.
you just have no idea how to interpret them.

Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground,
and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel.
(1 Samuel 28:20)​

God says this is Samuel.
you say God is a liar.
calling God a liar is never good hermeneutic.

 

[Phoneman777]

no; they don't.
you just have no idea how to interpret them.

Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground,
and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel.
(1 Samuel 28:20)​

God says this is Samuel.
you say God is a liar.
calling God a liar is never good hermeneutic.

He's called "Samuel" because it was a demon impersonating Samuel.

How do we know?

Because "the dead know not anything...neither have they a portion in anything that is done under the sun...(and)...he shall return no more to his house".

What's terrible hermeneutic is ignoring what other texts say on a subject in order to make one or two texts teach the opposite of the rest, but that is often the case surrounding false doctrine: the many verses which clearly teach one position are cast aside in favor of the one or two which only apparently teach contrarily to them.

 

[kcnalp]

He's called "Samuel" because it was a demon impersonating Samuel.

How do we know?

Because "the dead know not anything...neither have they a portion in anything that is done under the sun...(and)...he shall return no more to his house".

What's terrible hermeneutic is ignoring what other texts say on a subject in order to make one or two texts teach the opposite of the rest, but that is often the case surrounding false doctrine: the many verses which clearly teach one position are cast aside in favor of the one or two which only apparently teach contrarily to them.

Jesus lied?
Luke 16:
"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

 

[post]

He's called "Samuel" because it was a demon impersonating Samuel.

That's what you say, but it is contrary to what God says.

God calls him Samuel. You call him a demon.

I will believe God rather than you.

 

[post]

Jesus lied?

Clearly it is phonedude who is the liar, not Christ.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus lied?
Luke 16:
"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

Was Jotham "lying" when he said trees walk, talk, and make horrible life choices?

 

[Earburner]

If I said, the smoke of the fire went up for a week, what would you conclude of the fire? That there was a fire sending up smoke? Or that the fire, being fully extinguished, continued to send up smoke?

OK . . . I know . . . someone, maybe you, is all poised to say, but the "flames" were out, only the embers were smoking.

OK.

The smoke from combustion went up all week. Does that help? Where there is smoke, there is . . . combustion.

The Smoke of their Torment Ascends forever. Where there is smoke, there is ____________.

A: Torment

The smoke is the smoke of their torment, not just smoke.

I realize there are some who cannot countenance such a straightforward reading, as they will say, but people are not eternal!

What if we were to set aside conclusions, doctrines, things like that, and only look at what the passage itself says? What does it say?

Revelation 14:9-12 KJV
9) And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Much love!

> I won't repost the scriptures here, but smoke is carbon atoms, and therefore can and do exist in space, beyond our atmosphere.

"In space, there is no air, then how is smoke coming out from the rocket?
When the fuel is used it creates smoke. This smoke is not needed in the rocket so it is pushed out through the bottom of the rocket. Smoke and air can exist in space, they just are not found in huge clumps because the atoms want to dispurse to reduce pressure." By: Bradley Frink- Theoretical Partical Physicist at CERN (organization).

> So in essence, the smoke of anything that is burning, or has been burnt, can be and is "forever and ever", everlasting out in space.

 

[teamventure]

I just got here, but has anyone had an answer or explanation for the part about "They have no rest day or night"?

 

[Brakelite]

no; they don't.
you just have no idea how to interpret them.

Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground,
and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel.
(1 Samuel 28:20)​

God says this is Samuel.
you say God is a liar.
calling God a liar is never good hermeneutic.

Samuel was dead. His body turning to dust. With what was this Samuel now using to talk?

 

[Brakelite]

It's interesting that the smoke and dust from the volcanic eruption in Tonga has circled the planet twice as of last week.

 

[Earburner]

I just got here, but has anyone had an answer or explanation for the part about "They have no rest day or night"?

Just exactly as it says: day time or night time, 24/7 as long as they are physically alive. All of such do not have eternal existence of any kind.

 

[Earburner]

Jesus lied?
Luke 16:
"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

Let's not forget that Jesus spoke it as a parable, a semi-fictious story, in order to deliver a single truth. Do you know what that single truth is?

 

[teamventure]

Just exactly as it says: day time or night time, 24/7 as long as they are physically alive. All of such do not have eternal existence of any kind.

You are adding to scripture because no where does it say or even imply "as long as they are physically alive"
It's easier for you to refute when we look at part of the verse.
However, how do you refute the whole verse in context?
and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:11 KJV

 

[quietthinker]

You are adding to scripture because no where does it say or even imply "as long as they are physically alive"
It's easier for you to refute when we look at part of the verse.
However, how do you refute the whole verse in context?
and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:11 KJV

Understanding Hebrew idiom is as important as understanding English idiom. Without that understanding, literal interpretation will make pigs fly and one qualifies oneself with the same credibility as one who touts as factual the dreamtime stories of indigenous cultures.

 

[teamventure]

Understanding Hebrew idiom is as important as understanding English idiom. Without that understanding, literal interpretation will make pigs fly and one qualifies oneself with the same credibility as one who touts as factual the dreamtime stories of indigenous cultures.

Ok explain the Hebrew idiom in that passage.

 

[quietthinker]

Ok explain the Hebrew idiom in that passage.

When the firemen couldn't put the fire out they said, it burned forever. They did not mean that if we visited the location of the fire we would still see it burning. What they meant was, it burned till all the fuel was consumed.....nothing could be rescued.

In the same way the Hebrews used this expression of burning forever as is evidenced in Jude 1:7 ' Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.'

One can visit the sites of these cities today and find no fire burning.

Gehenna (the place where destruction by fire occurred) burned as long as there was fuel to keep it going yet the term 'forever' is often applied. This is Hebrew idiom.

 

[teamventure]

When the firemen couldn't put the fire out they said, it burned forever. They did not mean that if we visited the location of the fire we would still see it burning. What they meant was, it burned till all the fuel was consumed.....nothing could be rescued.

In the same way the Hebrews used this expression of burning forever as is evidenced in Jude 1:7 ' Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.'

One can visit the sites of these cities today and find no fire burning.

Gehenna (the place where destruction by fire occurred) burned as long as there was fuel to keep it going yet the term 'forever' is often applied. This is Hebrew idiom.

I see your point there with the idiom, however, how is the part about Sodom and Gomorrah not about hell and damnation as opposed to just the cities burning?