The Son of Man in the Throne Room

[Randy Kluth]

There is an interesting parallel between Dan 7 and Rev 1-5 in which the Son of Man appears in heaven to obtain authority on behalf of his people. Jesus appears in white, showing his absolute purity, and then we see the fires of judgment come down upon those who persecute God's People.

Dan 7.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.
9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.

I read this Little Horn as the Antichrist, and the context describing Heaven's verdict on his reign. So the context involves the terminal point of the reign of Antichrist which, of course, is when the Son of Man descends from heaven.

I understand that some here may not believe in a literal Antichrist, so it can be read that this is the time of the end of the reign of *Antichristianity.*

Dan 7.9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool."

This is the exact same context as we see in the book of Revelation, where the Son of Man has hair white like wool, and where he is coming with the clouds. Jesus is pure, and could provide the necessary atonement for sinners.

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.....
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow.

So, we have the Son of Man being revealed to John in his vision, and like Dan 7 he has white hair and is proceeding with the clouds in an apparent fiery judgment.

Dan 7.12 I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire....
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Jesus, in Rev 4-5 can be seen obtaining a document in heaven from God, giving him authority not just to forgive our sins but also to bring the reign of Antichristian persecution to an end. He is the one with the commission, who has Divine authority to bring it about in his own time.

Rev 5.5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals..."
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

 

[CTK]

There is an interesting parallel between Dan 7 and Rev 1-5 in which the Son of Man appears in heaven to obtain authority on behalf of his people. Jesus appears in white, showing his absolute purity, and then we see the fires of judgment come down upon those who persecute God's People.

Dan 7.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.
9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.

I read this Little Horn as the Antichrist, and the context describing Heaven's verdict on his reign. So the context involves the terminal point of the reign of Antichrist which, of course, is when the Son of Man descends from heaven.

I understand that some here may not believe in a literal Antichrist, so it can be read that this is the time of the end of the reign of *Antichristianity.*

Dan 7.9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool."

This is the exact same context as we see in the book of Revelation, where the Son of Man has hair white like wool, and where he is coming with the clouds. Jesus is pure, and could provide the necessary atonement for sinners.

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.....
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow.

So, we have the Son of Man being revealed to John in his vision, and like Dan 7 he has white hair and is proceeding with the clouds in an apparent fiery judgment.

Dan 7.12 I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire....
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Jesus, in Rev 4-5 can be seen obtaining a document in heaven from God, giving him authority not just to forgive our sins but also to bring the reign of Antichristian persecution to an end. He is the one with the commission, who has Divine authority to bring it about in his own time.

Rev 5.5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals..."
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

Let me ask if you might consider a different way to view Daniel 7. Here is the approach:

1) God has deliberately presented the prophecies found in chapter 2 in a very specific way: First, He presents the "Dream Sequence" (verses 31-35). These tell us the "big pictiure" of His plan of restoration for His people and His city, after they were taken away to Babylon and the city was completely destroyed.

2) Then He provides us with the "Interpretation Sequence" of verses which give us the "details" of events that will take place. But these are NOT events that come in chronological order after the Dream Sequence verses, rather they must be placed WITHIN those verses. In chapter 2, these are found in 41-44.

3) God will use this same approach in chapters 7,8 and 11.

4) However, in chapter 7, God will give us not one but two separate "Dream and Interpretation" sequence of verses. One is an earthly set and the other is a heavenly set. And it is the second set that I believe you are referring to.

5) The easiest way (for me) wasto carve out those "heavenly realm" verses - both their Dream and Interpretation set of verses from the earthly ones and look at them separately.

So, we have the first heavenly Dream sequence verses in 9-10 where God is settting up throne room and the books are open... but it is still incomplete. It is still awaiting someone to attend. This represents the throne room BEFORE THE CROSS.

Then, in verses 13-14, we are once again brought into the throne room of heaven where the Son of Man (Jesus) comes to the Ancient of Days to receive His kingdom. This occurs AFTER THE CROSS and Jesus returns to His Father.

The final heavenly realm scene is found in verse 26-27 when it is the end of time.

So, if you pull out these verses and look at them separately, they will not influence the earthly verses in chapter 7 and one can look at them just like the chapter 2 approach - first, God presents the "Dream sequence" of verses, then the "Interpretation sequence" of verses - all earthly.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Let me ask if you might consider a different way to view Daniel 7. Here is the approach:

1) God has deliberately presented the prophecies found in chapter 2 in a very specific way: First, He presents the "Dream Sequence" (verses 31-35). These tell us the "big pictiure" of His plan of restoration for His people and His city, after they were taken away to Babylon and the city was completely destroyed.

2) Then He provides us with the "Interpretation Sequence" of verses which give us the "details" of events that will take place. But these are NOT events that come in chronological order after the Dream Sequence verses, rather they must be placed WITHIN those verses. In chapter 2, these are found in 41-44.

3) God will use this same approach in chapters 7,8 and 11.

4) However, in chapter 7, God will give us not one but two separate "Dream and Interpretation" sequence of verses. One is an earthly set and the other is a heavenly set. And it is the second set that I believe you are referring to.

5) The easiest way (for me) wasto carve out those "heavenly realm" verses - both their Dream and Interpretation set of verses from the earthly ones and look at them separately.

So, we have the first heavenly Dream sequence verses in 9-10 where God is settting up throne room and the books are open... but it is still incomplete. It is still awaiting someone to attend. This represents the throne room BEFORE THE CROSS.

Then, in verses 13-14, we are once again brought into the throne room of heaven where the Son of Man (Jesus) comes to the Ancient of Days to receive His kingdom. This occurs AFTER THE CROSS and Jesus returns to His Father.

The final heavenly realm scene is found in verse 26-27 when it is the end of time.

So, if you pull out these verses and look at them separately, they will not influence the earthly verses in chapter 7 and one can look at them just like the chapter 2 approach - first, God presents the "Dream sequence" of verses, then the "Interpretation sequence" of verses - all earthly.

I don't know--I'd have to study out more carefully what you're saying. The thing is, visions are visions, and only symbolic representations of the history that will be. God sees them in advance because His Word cannot fail.

But being that they come *before* the actual history, they are "out of time" in terms of any kind of sequencing. They can be portrayed in any way God chooses.

The big example of this is the book of Revelation. It is difficult when people try to interpet apocalyptic language in an organized, chronological sequence of events. The visions do not make an effort to depict things in this way--just that they will happen.

Sometimes the visions are covering the same history. At other times they cover different histories. There are flashbacks, and most importantly, many of the visions of prolepses.

I think people should spend more time recognizing how the prolepsis works. If they do so, they will stop trying to foce the visions into organized sequences that they can put into a timeline.

The vision of the throne, in my view, is timelessly placed adjacent to the actual Coming of the Son of Man. But in terms of the actual history, and the chronology of these events, it may not be possible to understand them this way?

At some point, with respect to Jesus' Coming, he goes into God's chambers to deliver his credentials (dressed in white) and to obtain his mandate. He is apparently obtaining authority to Come Again to save his people, destroy the Antichrist, and establish God's Kingdom on earth. How to organize this may be beside the point with this kind of language?

 

[CTK]

I don't know--I'd have to study out more carefully what you're saying. The thing is, visions are visions, and only symbolic representations of the history that will be. God sees them in advance because His Word cannot fail.

But being that they come *before* the actual history, they are "out of time" in terms of any kind of sequencing. They can be portrayed in any way God chooses.

The big example of this is the book of Revelation. It is difficult when people try to interpet apocalyptic language in an organized, chronological sequence of events. The visions do not make an effort to depict things in this way--just that they will happen.

Sometimes the visions are covering the same history. At other times they cover different histories. There are flashbacks, and most importantly, many of the visions of prolepses.

I think people should spend more time recognizing how the prolepsis works. If they do so, they will stop trying to foce the visions into organized sequences that they can put into a timeline.

The vision of the throne, in my view, is timelessly placed adjacent to the actual Coming of the Son of Man. But in terms of the actual history, and the chronology of these events, it may not be possible to understand them this way?

At some point, with respect to Jesus' Coming, he goes into God's chambers to deliver his credentials (dressed in white) and to obtain his mandate. He is apparently obtaining authority to Come Again to save his people, destroy the Antichrist, and establish God's Kingdom on earth. How to organize this may be beside the point with this kind of language?

 

[CTK]

I see what you mean about prolepsis and “flashbacks,” and you’re right — God often speaks of the future as though it’s already accomplished, and sometimes visions revisit earlier events from a new angle. But that doesn’t mean His prophecies are disorganized. God’s Word is never random or chaotic. Each vision is structured, with repeated details, measured time elements, and carefully placed symbols so His people can recognize His plan.

In fact, in Daniel we see a clear pattern: God often gives His prophecies in two parts — first a dream-like sequence (the big picture), and then an interpretation sequence (the details that fit inside the big picture). This may be what you’re describing as “flashbacks.” Sometimes the visions overlap (like chapters 2, 7, 8, and 11), and sometimes they emphasize different aspects of history, but together they build a connected and orderly timeline.


So yes — there are flashbacks, and there is prolepsis, but both work within God’s divine order. Prolepsis gives us certainty (God speaks of what will happen as though it has already happened), while the dream-and-interpretation structure gives us sequence. God doesn’t want us to force His visions into our timelines — He wants us to recognize His timeline, which He has revealed in measured patterns for us to understand.

The very best example can be found in Daniel 2.... verses 31-35 represent the dream sequence and verses 41-44 represent those events that must be placed within the dream sequence. God is indeed very organized, orderly and deliberate. His prophecies are not simply given to us in a chronological fashion. Please attempt to look into this as it will definitely assist you in understanding Daniel - I believe.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I see what you mean about prolepsis and “flashbacks,” and you’re right — God often speaks of the future as though it’s already accomplished, and sometimes visions revisit earlier events from a new angle. But that doesn’t mean His prophecies are disorganized. God’s Word is never random or chaotic. Each vision is structured, with repeated details, measured time elements, and carefully placed symbols so His people can recognize His plan.

In fact, in Daniel we see a clear pattern: God often gives His prophecies in two parts — first a dream-like sequence (the big picture), and then an interpretation sequence (the details that fit inside the big picture). This may be what you’re describing as “flashbacks.” Sometimes the visions overlap (like chapters 2, 7, 8, and 11), and sometimes they emphasize different aspects of history, but together they build a connected and orderly timeline.


So yes — there are flashbacks, and there is prolepsis, but both work within God’s divine order. Prolepsis gives us certainty (God speaks of what will happen as though it has already happened), while the dream-and-interpretation structure gives us sequence. God doesn’t want us to force His visions into our timelines — He wants us to recognize His timeline, which He has revealed in measured patterns for us to understand.

The very best example can be found in Daniel 2.... verses 31-35 represent the dream sequence and verses 41-44 represent those events that must be placed within the dream sequence. God is indeed very organized, orderly and deliberate. His prophecies are not simply given to us in a chronological fashion. Please attempt to look into this as it will definitely assist you in understanding Daniel - I believe.

Yes, I agree that the dreams, visions, and prophecies are organized. But they typically present some things that are not immediately inuitive and are difficult to understand. Someone recently quoted this to me...

Num 12.5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud; he stood at the entrance to the tent and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, 6 he said, “Listen to my words:
“When there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions,
I speak to them in dreams.
7 But this is not true of my servant Moses;
he is faithful in all my house.
8 With him I speak face to face,
clearly and not in riddles;
he sees the form of the Lord.

I don't know what that tells you, but what it tells me is that God is deliberately obscure sometimes, probably due to our innate resistance to authoritative declarations. God made an exception in the case of Moses due to both character and the nature of the revelation being Law, which had to be very clear.

Paul said that we only know in part, and "see thru a glass darkly." That is, we need help, and we need interpretations. Most of all, we need to walk with the Lord, grow in Him, and wait on Him. In His time....

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus spoke in parables, but parables were to hide the truth from those God does not desire to know the true reality.
Parables were for those on the outside, while privately Jesus would speak more plainly to His own people, the explanations.

God also sends strong delusions on people to believe the lie as they refuse the truth and delight in unrighteousness.

Matthew 13

Prophecy and the Parables​

34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them, 35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying:

“I will open My mouth in parables;
I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.”

Luke 8

The Parable of the Sower​

4 And when a great multitude had gathered, and they had come to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable: 5 “A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. 8 But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded [e]a crop a hundredfold.” When He had said these things He cried, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

The Purpose of Parables​

9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”

10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the [f]mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that

‘Seeing they may not see,
And hearing they may not understand.’


Mark 4
9 And He said [c]to them, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

The Purpose of Parables​

10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the [d]mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’ ”


John 10
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.


This was by the will of the Lord God, as God is a revealer of mysteries, but that is according to His will and not the will of the man.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus spoke in parables, but parables were to hide the truth from those God does not desire to know the true reality.

I agree, but there is a little blindness in all of us. Therefore, Moses could only see the back side of God. Paul said he saw "thru a glass darkly." Peter made a ton of errors early in his career.

We just can't know the whole thing in exquisite detail until we reach the other side. The Prophets were regularly given things in virtual mysteries. Only Moses was given to be crystal clear. And I suppose the Apostles had enough clarity to give us the fundamental message of the Gospel.

Yes, we can all hear God if we respond to God's Word to us in Faith. But even then, we have to be cautious with what we think is the truth. We do have the Spirit, and we should recognize Him. But deciphering what He is telling us is a process, involving maturing, learning by experience, and obeying.

Yes, Christ gave us revelation to assure us of our Salvation. But the world is still a wicked place where we need to be wiser than snakes, and undeceived by our own desires. We need to always be in submission.

 

[Scott Downey]

I agree, but there is a little blindness in all of us. Therefore, Moses could only see the back side of God. Paul said he saw "thru a glass darkly." Peter made a ton of errors early in his career.

We just can't know the whole thing in exquisite detail until we reach the other side. The Prophets were regularly given things in virtual mysteries. Only Moses was given to be crystal clear. And I suppose the Apostles had enough clarity to give us the fundamental message of the Gospel.

Yes, we can all hear God if we respond to God's Word to us in Faith. But even then, we have to be cautious with what we think is the truth. We do have the Spirit, and we should recognize Him. But deciphering what He is telling us is a process, involving maturing, learning by experience, and obeying.

Yes, Christ gave us revelation to assure us of our Salvation. But the world is still a wicked place where we need to be wiser than snakes, and undeceived by our own desires. We need to always be in submission.

Parables hide the truth, this is deliberate. Faith is the gift of God.
Those on the outside, not authorized to be explained to all the mysteries of God.

Moses could be allowed to only see God's back as flesh can not see His full glorious face and live.

However God spoke all things to Moses as a friend would speak face to face.

Deuteronomy 34:10
But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

Exodus 33

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Depart and go up from here, you and the people whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt, to the land of which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘To your descendants I will give it.’ 2 And I will send My Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. 3 Go up to a land flowing with milk and honey; for I will not go up in your midst, lest I [a]consume you on the way, for you are a stiff-necked[b] people.”

4 And when the people heard this bad news, they mourned, and no one put on his ornaments. 5 For the Lord had said to Moses, “Say to the children of Israel, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. I could come up into your midst in one moment and consume you. Now therefore, take off your [c]ornaments, that I may know what to do to you.’ ” 6 So the children of Israel stripped themselves of their ornaments by Mount Horeb.

Moses Meets with the Lord​

7 Moses took his tent and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the tabernacle of meeting. And it came to pass that everyone who sought the Lord went out to the tabernacle of meeting which was outside the camp. 8 So it was, whenever Moses went out to the tabernacle, that all the people rose, and each man stood at his tent door and watched Moses until he had gone into the tabernacle. 9 And it came to pass, when Moses entered the tabernacle, that the pillar of cloud descended and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses. 10 All the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the tabernacle door, and all the people rose and worshiped, each man in his tent door. 11 So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.

The Promise of God’s Presence​

12 Then Moses said to the Lord, “See, You say to me, ‘Bring up this people.’ But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.’ 13 Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people.”

14 And He said, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

15 Then he said to Him, “If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. 16 For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.”

17 So the Lord said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”

18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”

19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” 21 And the Lord said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Numbers 12

Dissension of Aaron and Miriam​

1 Then Miriam and Aaron [a]spoke against Moses because of the [b]Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman. 2 So they said, “Has the Lord indeed spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us also?” And the Lord heard it. 3 (Now the man Moses was very humble, more than all men who were on the face of the earth.)

4 Suddenly the Lord said to Moses, Aaron, and Miriam, “Come out, you three, to the tabernacle of meeting!” So the three came out. 5 Then the Lord came down in the pillar of cloud and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam. And they both went forward. 6 Then He said,

“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.
7 Not so with My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My house.
8 I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly,[c] and not in [d]dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?”

9 So the anger of the Lord was aroused against them, and He departed. 10 And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow. Then Aaron turned toward Miriam, and there she was, a leper. 11 So Aaron said to Moses, “Oh, my lord! Please do not lay [e]this sin on us, in which we have done foolishly and in which we have sinned. 12 Please do not let her be as one dead, whose flesh is half consumed when he comes out of his mother’s womb!”

13 So Moses cried out to the Lord, saying, “Please heal her, O God, I pray!”

14 Then the Lord said to Moses, “If her father had but spit in her face, would she not be shamed seven days? Let her be shut[f] out of the camp seven days, and afterward she may be received again.” 15 So Miriam was shut out of the camp seven days, and the people did not journey till Miriam was brought in again. 16 And afterward the people moved from Hazeroth and camped in the Wilderness of Paran.

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 12 - New King James Version

Dissension of Aaron and Miriam - Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married; for he had married an Ethiopian woman. So they said, “Has the Lord indeed spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us also?” And the Lord heard it. (Now the...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Scott Downey]

. 6 Then He said,

“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.
7 Not so with My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My house.
8 I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly,[c] and not in [d]dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?”

All prophetic prophecies must be interpreted, by the Spirit to be properly understood.
We witness that truth everyday on this forum as one says this, and another that about the prophecies.
But it is the Lord who must give the understanding, this can not come from the man. Truth does not come from man, truth comes from God.

This is the deliberate plan and purpose of God.

17 So the Lord said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”

18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”

19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

God's graciousness and compassion is not dependent on you, that choice is the Lord's alone.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Parables hide the truth, this is deliberate. Faith is the gift of God.
Those on the outside, not authorized to be explained to all the mysteries of God.

Moses could be allowed to only see God's back as flesh can not see His full glorious face and live.

However God spoke all things to Moses as a friend would speak face to face.

Yes, I know. My point, however, is this is the normal way God communicates to us through His prophets--not just in the distant past but also today. The parables Jesus shared with his Disciples was not to hide things from them, but to give knowledge to them while at the same time hiding it from unbelievers and the wicked.

In other words, we have to accept in this life that hearing God can be a struggle. Knowing our Salvation can be certain, but understanding things as clearly as Moses did cannot be assured. He was given clarity out of a need to make the Law certain. The Apostles were given clarity to give the Church assurance of doctrine. Jesus gave us clarity to assure us of the certainty of our Salvation and of our Morality.

But some things will remain fuzzy until we get to heaven. Those who come to us declaring the oracles of God because they, like Moses, see God "face to face" are deceivers. They want to be our gurus. They want to "lead the flock."

And so, we are warned about them by Jesus. We don't go to Moses. We don't go to Elijah. We go to Jesus. He will give us the clarity we need, despite the unavoidable "fuziness."

 

[IndianaRob]

There is an interesting parallel between Dan 7 and Rev 1-5 in which the Son of Man appears in heaven to obtain authority on behalf of his people. Jesus appears in white, showing his absolute purity, and then we see the fires of judgment come down upon those who persecute God's People.

Dan 7.8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.
9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.

I read this Little Horn as the Antichrist, and the context describing Heaven's verdict on his reign. So the context involves the terminal point of the reign of Antichrist which, of course, is when the Son of Man descends from heaven.

I understand that some here may not believe in a literal Antichrist, so it can be read that this is the time of the end of the reign of *Antichristianity.*

Dan 7.9 “As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool."

This is the exact same context as we see in the book of Revelation, where the Son of Man has hair white like wool, and where he is coming with the clouds. Jesus is pure, and could provide the necessary atonement for sinners.

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.....
12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow.

So, we have the Son of Man being revealed to John in his vision, and like Dan 7 he has white hair and is proceeding with the clouds in an apparent fiery judgment.

Dan 7.12 I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire....
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

Jesus, in Rev 4-5 can be seen obtaining a document in heaven from God, giving him authority not just to forgive our sins but also to bring the reign of Antichristian persecution to an end. He is the one with the commission, who has Divine authority to bring it about in his own time.

Rev 5.5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals..."
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

The first part ofRevelation chapter 5 was when Jesus was ministering to those in the prison. In other words right after he was crucified.

The last part of chapter 5 is after the resurrection.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The first part ofRevelation chapter 5 was when Jesus was ministering to those in the prison. In other words right after he was crucified.

The last part of chapter 5 is after the resurrection.

I don't understand. Could you explain with more detail? I don't see anything in Rev 5 about prison?

 

[IndianaRob]

I don't understand. Could you explain with more detail? I don't see anything in Rev 5 about prison?

Yes I’ll explain it.

Revelation 5 opens with a book that no one in heaven, earth, or under the earth,could legally open.

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon

At that point in time Jesus was either in heaven with the Father, on the earth during his earthly life or under the earth.

Jesus could not legally unseal the book until he had paid the price for the legal right to open it.

Jesus is not mentioned as one of those that were in heaven so that means he was either on earth or under the earth.

So that means the timing of Revelation 5 is at a time BEFORE he had ascended to the Father. Which means the timing of Revelation 5 was right around 33 AD.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes I’ll explain it.

Revelation 5 opens with a book that no one in heaven, earth, or under the earth,could legally open.

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon

At that point in time Jesus was either in heaven with the Father, on the earth during his earthly life or under the earth.

Jesus could not legally unseal the book until he had paid the price for the legal right to open it.

Jesus is not mentioned as one of those that were in heaven so that means he was either on earth or under the earth.

So that means the timing of Revelation 5 is at a time BEFORE he had ascended to the Father. Which means the timing of Revelation 5 was right around 33 AD.

I tend to see apocalyptic language and visions as a representation, as opposed to the acting out of a literal history and chronology of those events. So, the symbols used in the vision are *representations,* and thus represent realities behind the symbols being used. It's a kind of metaphorical language not intended to be taken at face value or as anything more than just a representation.

Do I think all this actually happened in heaven? Not the events they represented, but only the visions themselves happened in heaven. They were *visions!* That's what John saw--not the actual events, but the symbols that represented what happened.

It may not have been a Lamb, a scroll, or a throne room seat. John saw these as representations in visions. But the events themselves, with their chronologies, are something else.

But what John saw as representations were actually viewed there in heaven, though only as symbolic visions. And if the Lamb was there, Jesus was being seen there, as well, in this symbolic fashion. This is in no regard to when the actual events being represented took place.

We are told there were golden bowls full of incense. But we are also told that they are purely representations, looking back to the former Tabernacle worship in which literal bowls of incense were used.

We are told these bowls of incense actually represent the "prayers of the saints." So, we know that the symbols are not literal, and not meant to be taken as such, but only as *representations.*

The Lamb himself is in the center of the throne in heaven, which means that the atonement, being represented, took place legally in heaven with God the Father. He accepted Christ's sacrifice for the sins of the world, and is applying it to the saints.

The atonement being represented actually took place on the Cross. But it is here being represented as being accepted in heaven by God the Father, with angels as witnesses. Also, the creatures of the earth are being represented by angels that have jurisdiction over earth's creatures, including 24 angels who preside over humanity and 4 creatures who preside over creaturely creation.

All is under the authority of Christ's redemption, ensuring that God's plan of Salvation for the saints will not be hindered in any way on earth. We may be persecuted, but our Salvation and mission cannot be thwarted. Angels are given to watch over this and ensure all this takes place.

My view only... Thanks for yours.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, I know. My point, however, is this is the normal way God communicates to us through His prophets--not just in the distant past but also today. The parables Jesus shared with his Disciples was not to hide things from them, but to give knowledge to them while at the same time hiding it from unbelievers and the wicked.

In other words, we have to accept in this life that hearing God can be a struggle. Knowing our Salvation can be certain, but understanding things as clearly as Moses did cannot be assured. He was given clarity out of a need to make the Law certain. The Apostles were given clarity to give the Church assurance of doctrine. Jesus gave us clarity to assure us of the certainty of our Salvation and of our Morality.

But some things will remain fuzzy until we get to heaven. Those who come to us declaring the oracles of God because they, like Moses, see God "face to face" are deceivers. They want to be our gurus. They want to "lead the flock."

And so, we are warned about them by Jesus. We don't go to Moses. We don't go to Elijah. We go to Jesus. He will give us the clarity we need, despite the unavoidable "fuzziness."

Today God speaks to 'us' in various ways not unlike the OT, but it's more of an assurance that we will know the truth by His Spirit as in the NC, the Spirit dwells inside His people and we are the temple of God, not any building made by hands. The temple system of worship passed and God rebuilds the tabernacle of David, not the temple of Soloman.

Acts 15
12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had [c]become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the [d]Lord who does all these things.’

18 [e]“Known to God from eternity are all His works. 19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from [f]sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And the promise is we will know the truth, or let's say as much truth as God wants us to have so that we abide in His Son.
He does this by revelation knowledge from His Spirit to our spirit of the things of God that we need to know to be assured of our salvation.
And obviously there are many differences of opinions, even though there is One Spirit, one Lord, one faith, not all believers are of the same mind, are they. Because the mind must be brought into submission to the Word of God through teaching as in letting Him teach us.
Not all are on the same page, but hopefully all are on the same path, there is only one way to the Father and that is Christ.

Let Truth Abide in You​

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to [f]deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you [g]will abide in Him.

The Children of God​

28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that [h]when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 2 - New King James Version

The Test of Knowing Christ - My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. The...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Randy Kluth]

Today God speaks to 'us' in various ways not unlike the OT, but it's more of an assurance that we will know the truth by His Spirit as in the NC, the Spirit dwells inside His people and we are the temple of God, not any building made by hands. The temple system of worship passed and God rebuilds the tabernacle of David, not the temple of Soloman.

Well said!