The song of Mary- an unorthodox perspective

[BreadOfLife]

Oh I see.. I need 2000 years of monks to define to me what I can see the squirrels in the back yard performing.

No – YOU need to understand that the NT writers didn’t write in the King’s English.

When all else fails – go to the original language . . .

 

[ewq1938]

The kitchen is closed.

But there are many similar ideas that formulate beliefs people hold without great reasons. They cling to these ideas as of their lives depended on them, or their very salvation. And when those beliefs are examined, they often don’t hold up under scrutiny. They often conflict with scripture and or other “ideas” those same people hold.

Most often they are not bad people. They just have bad ideas. Misunderstandings and bad teachings and endless regurgitation of the same.

Maybe we could look at some of these in another thread. Questions that pose as puzzles or just don’t quite make sense. Sacred cows that people don’t want touched.

Ending my participation in this thread. It’s run its course. Thanks to all who contributed thoughts.

It was a good discussion.

It was heresy and denial of the virgin conception and birth. Joseph is not the actual father of Jesus. Jesus was conceived in Mary without a human father. Joseph did not have physical relations with Mary until after the birth of Jesus. Joseph did not impregnate Mary with Jesus!

All your posts that deny the virgin birth have been reported. Hopefully the entire thread will be deleted as it is full of heresy and false teachings.

 

[ewq1938]

That’s another lie from your lips Johann. You have a real struggle with truth.

I said clearly that Mary was a virgin until her wedding night. The virgin pregnancy is scriptural. Immaculate conception without Joseph’s involvement is nonsense.

The bible says Mary was a virgin even after giving birth to Jesus which means Joseph did not get her pregnant.

 

[Berserk]

The ancient rabbis and our Gospels agree on this point--that Jesus was born too soon and Joseph was not His natural father. One first century Rabbi claims that Jesus was the illegitimate son of Panthera, subsequently identified by Celsus as a Roman soldier. Thus. hostile Nazareth residents disdainfully call Jesus "the son of Mary (Mark 6:3-4)," not of Joseph. All this indicates that virgin birth traditions precede our Gospel witness and supports their historicity.

 

[ewq1938]

The ancient rabbis and our Gospels agree on this point--that Jesus was born too soon and Joseph was not His natural father.

Jesus was not born too soon, nor does the bible say such. It is unwise to listen to the "ancient Rabbis".

 

[Johann]

No – YOU need to understand that the NT writers didn’t write in the King’s English.

When all else fails – go to the original language . . .

Where are the original languages--most here say they are "dead"

 

[Stan B]

The bible says Mary was a virgin even after giving birth to Jesus which means Joseph did not get her pregnant.

That is a LIE! The Bible says no such thing! The Bible says that Jesus had four brothers and a number of sisters:

Isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joses, Judas,and Simon? Aren’t His sisters here withus as well? Mark 6

 

[Johann]

That is a LIE!

This is the problem with social media--not sitting face to face-to get to know each other--and seems to give us this authority to shout "That's a lie!" Tell me, would you say this to your pastor or in Church, that's IF you have a pastor or fellowship in a ekklesia?
What gives us this boldness to do and say whatever we want to members, NOT knowing them, hurting them?

 

[Stan B]

This is the problem with social media--not sitting face to face-to get to know each other--and seems to give us this authority to shout "That's a lie!" Tell me, would you say this to your pastor or in Church, that's IF you have a pastor or fellowship in a ekklesia?
What gives us this boldness to do and say whatever we want to members, NOT knowing them, hurting them?

YES! I have said such to a pastor; a trait passed on to my pre-teen granddaughter, who has done the same!! As Scripture commands to “Expose the evil deeds of darkness”! The pastor in question didn’t listen, and has been permanently blacklisted from ever again being a pastor.

Presenting someone with the raw truth could a great benefit for THEM!

 

[ewq1938]

That is a LIE! The Bible says no such thing! The Bible says that Jesus had four brothers and a number of sisters:

So? I never said she was always a virgin. I CLEARLY said she was a virgin even after Jesus was born, not a virgin after her other children were born. Those are the children of Joseph. Jesus was not.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Where are the original languages--most here say they are "dead"

The NT was written in Koine Greek.
It is certainly not "dead".

 

[Stan B]

The NT was written in Koine Greek.
It is certainly not "dead".

Mathew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew, and Paul wrote his Epistle to the Hebrews in Hebrew.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Mathew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew, and Paul wrote his Epistle to the Hebrews in Hebrew.

Again - not a "dead" language either.
And Paul is not the recognized author of Hebrews.

 

[Johann]

Again - not a "dead" language either.
And Paul is not the recognized author of Hebrews.

Ol' @Bible Highlighter would certainly disagree with you here.
J.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That is a LIE! The Bible says no such thing! The Bible says that Jesus had four brothers and a number of sisters:

Isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joses, Judas,and Simon? Aren’t His sisters here withus as well? Mark 6

Here we go again.
Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

The “Brethren” of Jesus are not only NOT describes as children of Mary – they are some other relation. ANY first year Bible student can tell you that the Greek word “Adelphos” is used FAR MORE often for relations OTHER than uterine sibling in the NT. It is uses for brother of same parents, half-brother, relative, uncle, nephew, cousin, kinship, same tribe, and even a fellow countryman.

Of the 344 times we see the use of the word “Adelphos”, “Adelphe” and all of their variations, we see that –
41 cases (12%) where "adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling:
47 cases (14%) where "adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling:
There are a whopping 256 cases (74%) where "adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does not refer to a family sibling:

What do the Scriptures have to say about the women standing at the cross and their children?

Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome").

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

When you compare the different accounts of the crucifixion, they clearly show the mother of James and Joseph to be the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus) – not Mary, the Mother of Jesus.
In Marl 3:18, we see that James the Less father is Alphaeus (Clopas).

Any attempt to connect these people as uterine brothers of Jesus are squashed by the Bible.
To say that Jesus's mother Mary is the mother of James and Joses and the others named in Matt. 13:55 is to espouse a LIE because the Biblical evidence is overwhelmingly against you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ol' @Bible Highlighter would certainly disagree with you here.
J.

It's not a hard fact either way.

I'm not against the idea of Pauline authorship. It's just not something that has ever been agreed upon as a consensus.

 

[Stan B]

Here we go again.
Time for a Bible Lesson . . .

The “Brethren” of Jesus are not only NOT describes as children of Mary – they are some other relation. ANY first year Bible student can tell you that the Greek word “Adelphos” is used FAR MORE often for relations OTHER than uterine sibling in the NT. It is uses for brother of same parents, half-brother, relative, uncle, nephew, cousin, kinship, same tribe, and even a fellow countryman.

Of the 344 times we see the use of the word “Adelphos”, “Adelphe” and all of their variations, we see that –
41 cases (12%) where "adelphos" clearly or probably refers to a family sibling:
47 cases (14%) where "adelphos" may or may not refer to a family sibling:
There are a whopping 256 cases (74%) where "adelphos" cannot or almost certainly does not refer to a family sibling:

What do the Scriptures have to say about the women standing at the cross and their children?

Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome").

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

When you compare the different accounts of the crucifixion, they clearly show the mother of James and Joseph to be the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus) – not Mary, the Mother of Jesus.
In Marl 3:18, we see that James the Less father is Alphaeus (Clopas).

Any attempt to connect these people as uterine brothers of Jesus are squashed by the Bible.
To say that Jesus's mother Mary is the mother of James and Joses and the others named in Matt. 13:55 is to espouse a LIE because the Biblical evidence is overwhelmingly against you.

Yeah, there were a lot of chicks named Mary, but the mother of Jesus and His brothers and sisters is not a mystery:

"Coming to His hometown, He taught the people in their synagogue, and they were astonished. “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked. “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?”…Matt 13

 

[Berserk]

Jesus was not born too soon, nor does the bible say such. It is unwise to listen to the "ancient Rabbis".

Oh yes He was born too soon (i.e. prior to sex with Joseph); and Joseph was even considering divorcing her until the angelic intervention.
And on the contrary, we should listen to the independent witness of the ancient rabbis because they allow us to rule out the greatest skeptical threat to virgin birth tradition, that Jesus was the natural son of Joseph and Mary.

 

[Johann]

Oh yes He was born too soon (i.e. prior to sex with Joseph); and Joseph was even considering divorcing her until the angelic intervention.
And on the contrary, we should listen to the independent witness of the ancient rabbis because they allow us to rule out the greatest skeptical threat to virgin birth tradition, that Jesus was the natural son of Joseph and Mary.

So what is your sources on ancient rabbinical writings? Any links? Not that you will answer-I'm sure.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yeah, there were a lot of chicks named Mary, but the mother of Jesus and His brothers and sisters is not a mystery:

"Coming to His hometown, He taught the people in their synagogue, and they were astonished. “Where did this man get such wisdom and miraculous powers?” they asked. “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t His mother’s name Mary, and aren’t His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas? Aren’t all His sisters with us as well? Where then did this man get all these things?”…Matt 13

And ALL this passage tells us is that Jesus’s mother’s name is Mary – and that He had some male and female relatives. Their mother was the other Mary at the foot of the cross who was married to Clopas/Alphaeus – the relative of His mother Mary.

YOU are under the erroneous impression that this was written in English.
It wasn’t . . .