That would explain why I didn't get it, LoL. I don't use straw men, so making one up for someone else brings me completely out of my element, so to speak.
The State Of "Christian Spirituality"
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That would explain why I didn't get it, LoL. I don't use straw men, so making one up for someone else brings me completely out of my element, so to speak.
Hey, icxn.
My view would be that the demons are free to do even darker work. An enemy they assume is powerless is an enemy they are greatly underestimating, and are about to be defeated by in countless ways.
Your question was general, not specifically about you. Therefore I gave you an answer that you prob were not expecting, it is both true, and sorta snarky. Within the spiritual realm, there are degrees of authority (think of how the Archangel Michael was hindered 21 days before he could get to Daniel [Daniel 10:13]) By the way, there are only 3 Archangels Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer, and there are no angels with greater authority. Of course, Lucifer is fallen, and the most beautiful--See Ezekiel 26 (or 28 for that).
The short answer is that can influence and cause a Christian to stumble and ruin their testimony just like what happened to Jerry Fallwell Jr. if the Christian leaves an "open door" whereby the demon can get the Christian to do something hideous. Jesus said that "no one can snatch the believer out of his hand (John 10:26) so Mr Fallwell, Jr. and his wife will go there, but meanwhile, their life on earth will be devoid of the gifts of Holy Spirit blessing and prospering their lives. In short, they will be without influence and miserable knowing that they wasted their latter years in remorse instead of having joy. I do not condemn them for their sin because like them, I am also a sinner, but my sins are different.
I could give you personal experiences where you can read about stuff I encountered; instead, first, I will refer you to both the OT and NT. Job is an example of a believer being demonized-- that is the proper term, because a believer cannot be possessed by a demon. Instead, they can be influenced. In the NT, there is the example of Simon, the Sorcerer.
It may be that he was a new believer when he asked to purchase the authority to do miracles, and was rebuked for that. But there is no doubt that that request did not come from Holy Spirit.
A while back, Merrill Unger a very good Christian author wrote a book called What Demons can do to Saints. it is something worth while reading if you are interested in reading on those lines.
Should you wish to delve deeper, there are several books translated from German to English by the protestant Christian psychiatrist and exorcist Kurt Kotch.
Please do not argue with my experiences, and assume that I am some sort of freak, seeing a demon under every bush. But I will share this with you. Multiple Personality disorder, (now recognized as "DID" or "Dissociative Identity Disorder" is real, and it has its roots in ritualistic sexual abuse, is an example of demonic possession. (There is much more to this than I am letting on.)
In the church I pastored in the 1990s, there was a troubled 30-ish woman who was constantly stirring up trouble in her life. there are things I am sure she did in the church because previously Holy Spirit revealed to me in the same manner that a man in our church in another state incested his daughter, now in college, and was grooming his 11 years-old daughter.
An Evangelical Methodist pastor, and licensed psychologist warned me about her because she was in the church I pastored. Her father was an elder in our church because he was a "nice guy" but towards his daughter, he was a beast, hitting her with a 2 X 4 (make the connection above) and his wife held seances in their trailer.
The daughter wanted to come and talk, and be "counseled" by my wife and myself. So we met with her in our church. Prior to the meeting, we prayed, fasted and asked for the Lord to surround us with angels, and bind her demons from splitting to infect the church or us. Spiritually, we were prepared.
We sat down in chairs, had small talk, and I began by asking her the open ended question what she wanted us to do that day.
All of a sudden, she said "We cannot see you. There is something bright surrounding you and it makes us afraid." Catch the plurals?
With that, she ran as fast as she could to her car, and speedily drove out of the parking lot.
So, I did not "deliberately misconstrue" your question as you falsely accuse me of doing, nor am I angry with you for doing so. However, your reply did cause me to believe that you may not have a grasp on the way that demons make Christians trip and fall. It is also my belief (not directly found in Scripture) that their sinning on Earth will somehow lessen the rewards they could have in heaven.
Now you have what the Bible says, what happened to my wife and me, and the Fallwells from which to develop your own understanding of demons. I do not expect you to agree with me 100%. However, I DO expect you to understand that my experiences were accurately remembered, and that the Scriptures tell us many things, all of which accurately correspond to my experiences.
It goes without saying, that the understanding of what demons can do is so repugnant that some Christians absolutely refuse to look at them. That is a valid choice. But IMHO God has directed that some Christians to learn about demons so that they can teach others; that also is a valid choice. What is indeed wrong is for one side of that choice to throw rocks and sticks at the other side.
Each side is unique, but not better than the other. Each side is correct in emphasizing the positive works of Jesus Christ, and condemning the myriads of work of darkness and evil. Thus the question about studying demons or not must fall to the stewardship of gifts sovereignly given to each believer. Just as all of us do not have the same gifts, we do not all have the same ministry.
1 Corinthians 12:
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
Therefore, just I cannot condemn you for being different than me, so also you cannot condemn me for being different than you. However, we ALL must answer to the same Master.4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.
7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
Before I was born again in Christ, I studied a form of Chinese "dance" called Tai Chi. My teacher (sifu) was a black belt in Wu Shu and Kung Fu, so he taught Tai Chi Chuan, the use of Tai Chi form in martial arts along with the "spiritual" aspects of developing " chi" (breath) and "shen" (spirit). I was practicing for less than a year when I began experiencing the sensations described as "heavy hands" and developed the ability to move "chi" through my body in what is called the "grand circulation." I learned how to do things with my " chi" that are not regarded by science as possible. At the time I didn't consider myself Christian in any sense of the word, though I was raised as a Roman Catholic. My experience with Tai Chi (and with a brief association with the local town psychic) convinced me of the reality of spiritual phenomena, but to my observation such spirituality had nothing to do with godliness, but the opposite (selfishness, pride, lust for power, etc.)
The day that I fully believed the gospel, the day that a co-worker and faithful Christian witness held my hands and prayed with me that I would receive Jesus Christ by His Spirit, the moment that I prayed earnestly to receive Him, I felt the most powerful movement of chi in my body that I'd ever felt. It was like all this internal energy within me suddenly rose to the top of my head and exited through my crown like a streak of lightning. It took me quite by surprise, but on reflection I realized that I hadn't been accumulating energies, but deceiving spiritual entities that could not abide in the presence of the Holy Spirit. If I now practice the types of meditation that I learned back in those days, I can still remember the sensations I felt back then as body memories. I can still feel and exert a measure of control on the individual muscle groups in my body, but the entities are gone. I can't cause physical sensations in other people by projecting my chi into them as I once did. I wasn't just saved, I was truly delivered.
My faith is not based upon my experience, but upon the word of God. However, my experience agrees with my faith affirming God's word. I've spoken with people having unclean spirits and I've silenced them with a command in Jesus' name. Some people believe that Christians can be possessed, but I'm quite convinced that possession of a "Christian" is an impossibility and only reveals that the possessed has never received Christ. It's usually religious people that experience possession, but religion never saved anyone. Salvation is in receiving Him, not simply believing that He exists or in the practice of rituals or sacraments. If unclean spirits exist (and they do) then the existence of a ruler over them, the ruler of this world, is a reasonable assumption.
That's fascinating. Strong testimony. I had heard of the spiritual aspects of martial arts involving spiritism, but I don't recall reading a personal testimony quite that strong before.
God bless, Michael, and glad you made it out of that.
Irwin Fletcher
Active Member
If you have ever read the C.S. Lewis classic, The Screwtape Letters, you can see Lewis' illustration of this. Satan controls some by their belief that he is all powerful. He controls others by the belief that he isn't real. He knows the weakness of a person or culture and attacks where they are most susceptible. I grew up in a church that would say Satan and demons might be real, but there was no evidence that people actually thought that way based on the way they prayed or lived their lives. On the mission field, we saw demon possession and the power of people's belief in pagan totems. That has a way of broadening your viewpoint quickly. Overall, you can't argue with people, but you can pray for them to have their eyes opened.
Yes I did. Back in college. And it is why I often use the term "faithlessness" in discussing such things with Christians. They don't like the term because no believer ever wants to be associated with it, but in reality it is the problem. They believe "in Christ," but not in the existence of his enemy and his continuing works in the real world (despite the fact that Jesus and the apostles clearly did, whom they read from on Sundays), and then they think it is some amazing thing to get deceived in a multitude of ways.
Thanks for posting. I count us blessed to have you as a member. And yes, you are right. Convincing them is near impossible on a purely mental level, but we can certainly pray for them.
Thanks for the sentiment. I'm glad that the Lord delivered me as well. I do believe that if He hadn't acted at that time, I'd most likely be dead and reserved for judgment now.
@michaelvpardo It can be healthy for us to remember humbly how the Lord has led us... I'm not into feelings, etc., but the Scriptures are very powerful.
Screwtape Letters was an easy read, but I never attempted anything else. My interest back then, as it is now, was in studying the spiritual war, so anything to do with the battle for the souls of men interested me.
@Hidden In Him Interesting; this was the title I found particularly hard.
As regards spiritual conflict, I do like Ephesians 6 and Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress.
Our hearts (feelings) are easily deceived and according to scripture :
“The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? " Jeremiah 17:9. Yet the Lord wants the full commitment of our feelings:
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. Deuteronomy 6:5
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