The "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "will not escape" on the day of the Lord will be caused by fire coming down on the earth.

[Earburner]

Yes, I do. It will burn up the earth, as Peter said. He said nothing about the lake of fire in that verse. The judgment will occur after Jesus burns up the earth and that is when those whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

Thank you for agreeing on Who the origin is of "the lake of fire", when it begins and what it is.
Yes, 2 Peter 3 spells it out in specific detail in verse 10:
On the Day of the Lord Jesus' return (in flaming fire).
the elements shall MELT, the earth also (molten lava) aka "the lake of fire", thus engulfing/covering the entirety of the earth.
Please think it through, by using "the Lord's mind" within you, and not "the wisdom of men" (church-ianity).

More of your churchianity nonsense. I just can't take you seriously.

"The wisdom of men" is the teaching of the religion of christianity. That so called wisdom originates only from the minds of men and not that of the Holy Spirit. The best that can ever be taught or preached from that level is historical facts, and a general knowledge of facts about people, places, and the reality of Jesus and his words.

I support what scripture teaches. Stop this "churchianity" nonsense already. You're making a fool of yourself here.

Lol. Anyone can read the general knowledge and factual details from the Bible. That is what I call church-ianity.

The key is to recieve the "hidden wisdom" of God from the Bible by the mind of Christ within us. That is true Christianity.
1 Cor. 2
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power [authority] of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [born again]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

It says everyone must appear before Christ to give an account of themselves. That has not yet occurred.

I propose that The Judgment Seat of Christ HAS occurred, and that it has been going on ever since Pentecost. Unfortunately, most professing Christians have a wrong view about it, which has been generated by the wisdom of men of church-ianity, which is terribly lacking of God's hidden wisdom.

No, I do not. That is what you do to me like when you claimed that I was "saying, as a professing born again Christian, that YOU yourself have NOT SUBMITTED (BOWED) yourself under the Lordship of Christ.".

You are very "thinned skin". I am only attempting to share something very valuable for all of us to understand, but you continue to kick and scream foul, which is nothing more than you trying to protect your present form of understanding.
I am not here to debate anyone. I am only here to share, discuss and reason with the mind of Christ within each of us.

Yes, it is. Do you not know what a debate is? That's what we're doing.

See the above

LOL. This churchianity nonsense is ridiculous. As if nothing that people in the church believe can be true? Get serious. Churchianity believes that Jesus died and rose again from the dead. I guess in your mind that means that is not true.

As I did say, Church-ianity is about truthful historical facts and general knowledge, but it scarcely scratches the hidden knowledge of God's understanding.

Stop this nonsense already. My beliefs aren't based on '"the wisdom of men". I study scripture for myself. Your own fallible wisdom is failing you. Your beliefs are based on your own human wisdom. You need to humble yourself and stop acting like you alone understand the truth. You come across like you are Gnostic. You seem to spiritualize literally everything you read. I wonder if you even believe in physical reality.

Because of our mortality, we all have a similar problem of reading and studying the Bible with our "natural" mind, and that we must.
However, after that, by the mind of Christ within us, we are to give Him the "reins" so that He can teach us how to "compare spiritual things with Spirit". 1 Cor. 2:13.
Such a method of learning begins when we actually perform what Paul invites us to do...
Rom. 12:1 I beseech [invite] you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies [and minds to be] a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

i choose to address your post like such. But if it's not satisfactory, sue me, I guess.

Okay, I will have my lawyer call you if I'm not satisfied with how you address my post.

Be warned though, it ended up being somewhat lengthy, unfortunately. And when you type with one finger only like I do, it's not like I typed all of that out in a minute or 2 like you typically might if you made a post just as lengthy, for example.

Okay...

Prove you are being consistent here. If your view is that the goats represent all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time, this would mean you need to treat the following in the same manner, for example.

Oh, I love when you demand that I interpret a passage the way you say I should. How nice...

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


Do you then take all of these meant here, who Jesus says He never knew them, to be meaning all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time? Probably not, would be my guess.

No, I don't. What is your point?

But then again, you never know when it comes to you and how you tend to discern and reason things at times?

Look in the mirror.

Take note what these in Matthew 7 have in common with the goats in Matthew 25. They are both addressing Jesus as Lord, as in having a professed relationship with. Everyone knows, including you, what is meant by Lord, Lord in Matthew 7. I would be baffled big time if you didn't. Therefore, like I said, including you. It is meaning a professed relationship with, thus isn't meaning in general that Jesus is Lord. Clearly, Jesus is Lord, yet not everyone acknowledges Him as such. Atheists, for example, certainly don't. Nor do unbelieving Jews, another example. Yet the goats per Matthew 25 undeniably acknowledge Him as Lord, as in a personal relationship with.

As usual, you are trying to relate unrelated passages. You do that over and over again.

Do you understand that unbelievers will have to appear before the judgment seat of Christ and confess that Jesus is Lord? That's what these passages indicate...

Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

Philippians 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So, with the understanding that unbelievers will be appearing before the judgment seat of Christ and confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord, that explains why the goats are coming Him "Lord" in Matthew 25:31-46. Not because they have a personal relationship with Him, but because there will be no denying of who He is at that point.

And the ironic thing about it, you fully agree that NOSAS is Biblical.

There's nothing ironic about it. Your brain is just all twisted up over this ridiculous idea you have that Amil isn't compatible with NOSAS even though I've shown you otherwise many times. Will you please ask God for wisdom so that you stop believing nonsense? Don't you want to discover the truth of these things instead of relying entirely on your own fallible wisdom?

Then when a passage is clearly supporting it, the sheep and goats judgment in this case, you refuse to use that passage to support it, even though it is one of the clearer passages in the NT that support NOSAS.

LOL. Such nonsense. If you only you knew how weak most of your arguments are. They are barely even worth responding to.

The following alone proves it---Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Compare that with James 2:14-20, for example. Surely, you possess enough discernment to to see the connection.

LOL at you talking to me about discernment when you are so clearly lacking in discernment. This is just pure comedy.

Which then begs the question, what in the world does--Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these and James 2:14-20 have to do with all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time?

What in the world are you even talking about here? You need to learn how to communicate.

Which would have to include Cain, unrepentant atheists, unrepentant unbelieving Jews, IOW, anybody but unprofitable professed servants of his in the body of Christ? God forbid that it can be meaning any of them. Or that it does include them, but not only them, all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time.

You are almost impossible to follow. Do you deny that unbelievers will be bowing before Jesus one day while confessing that He is Lord? That will include Cain, unrepentant atheists, unrepentant unbelieving Jews and all unbelievers from all-time.

My goal here is to at least get you to think,

LOL!!! You must be talking to someone else here because that's the last thing you can do for me. I believe I think about these things more deeply than most people on this forum. I'm not bragging, I'm just saying it's very clear that many people on this forum don't spend much time studying scripture.

except I'm not convinced you even actually take the time to think things through further before deciding that you are correct about all these things.

What a joke. You don't know me at all. I guarantee I have thought these things through further than you have. That is very clear because of how you are unable to defend any challenges to your view and how you don't bother to address any points that I make. Such as what I said about Matthew 13:47-50. Did you address that? Of course not. Why not? Because you are afraid to do so.

The fact your answers are always quick and are always from within the theological box you have placed everything, thus anything outside of that box of yours must be readily rejected, tends to prove it.

You have to be kidding me here. You truly have no idea of what you're talking about. I have made some of the longest posts ever made on this forum, but I can't just make long posts every single time I post. Good grief. Will you please grow up already?

I don't know how you can be as intelligent as you are, then think there is nothing else to figure out,

When have I said that? You obviously do not know me whatsoever. Not even a tiny bit. Yet, here you are acting like you are God and know everything about me.

that you have figured out everything there is to figure out, and that what you have figured out, none of it is in error, none of it can be understood in a different manner instead? That doesn't mean you're not wrong about some things. But not wrong about everything, though?

You just are clueless. You have said nonsense like this to me before and I proceeded to tell you a few things that I changed my mind about in the past year. But, do you remember that? Of course not because you'd rather just judge me and pretend as if you know me. I can't help it that you're wrong about so many things. Don't blame me for that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thank you for agreeing on Who is the origin of "the lake of fire", when it begins and what it is.

When did I do that? I don't recall ever doing that and I certainly didn't do it in the post you replied to.

Yes, 2 Peter 3 spells it out in specific detail in verse 10:
On the Day of the Lord Jesus' return (in flaming fire).
the elements shall MELT, the earth also (molten lava) aka "the lake of fire", thus engulfing/covering the entirety of the earth.
Please think it through, by using "the Lord's mind" within you, and not "the wisdom of men" (church-ianity).

Where did I say that 2 Peter 3 mentions the lake of fire? Nowhere. I did not agree with you about that. Are you just talking to someone else here and not me. You are the one using your own fallible wisdom here, not me. You just can't stop with the churchianity nonsense. You clearly have no interest in being taken seriously.

"The wisdom of men" is the teaching of the religion of christianity. The so called wisdom originates only from the minds of men and not that of the Holy Spirit. The best that can ever be taught or preached from that level is historical facts, and a general knowledge of facts about people, places, and the reality of Jesus and his words.

Ah, yes, you alone have the answers and no one else. Please humble yourself before God has to do it for you. It will be more pleasant that way.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

i choose to address your post like such. But if it's not satisfactory, sue me, I guess. Be warned though, it ended up being somewhat lengthy, unfortunately. And when you type with one finger only like I do, it's not like I typed all of that out in a minute or 2 like you typically might if you made a post just as lengthy, for example.

Prove you are being consistent here. If your view is that the goats represent all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time, this would mean you need to treat the following in the same manner, for example.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


Do you then take all of these meant here, who Jesus says He never knew them, to be meaning all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time? Probably not, would be my guess. But then again, you never know when it comes to you and how you tend to discern and reason things at times?

Take note what these in Matthew 7 have in common with the goats in Matthew 25. They are both addressing Jesus as Lord, as in having a professed relationship with. Everyone knows, including you, what is meant by Lord, Lord in Matthew 7. I would be baffled big time if you didn't. Therefore, like I said, including you. It is meaning a professed relationship with, thus isn't meaning in general that Jesus is Lord. Clearly, Jesus is Lord, yet not everyone acknowledges Him as such. Atheists, for example, certainly don't. Nor do unbelieving Jews, another example. Yet the goats per Matthew 25 undeniably acknowledge Him as Lord, as in a personal relationship with.

And the ironic thing about it, you fully agree that NOSAS is Biblical. Then when a passage is clearly supporting it, the sheep and goats judgment in this case, you refuse to use that passage to support it, even though it is one of the clearer passages in the NT that support NOSAS.

The following alone proves it---Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. Compare that with James 2:14-20, for example. Surely, you possess enough discernment to to see the connection. Which then begs the question, what in the world does--Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these and James 2:14-20 have to do with all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time? Which would have to include Cain, unrepentant atheists, unrepentant unbelieving Jews, IOW, anybody but unprofitable professed servants of his in the body of Christ? God forbid that it can be meaning any of them. Or that it does include them, but not only them, all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time.

My goal here is to at least get you to think, except I'm not convinced you even actually take the time to think things through further before deciding that you are correct about all these things. The fact your answers are always quick and are always from within the theological box you have placed everything, thus anything outside of that box of yours must be readily rejected, tends to prove it.

I don't know how you can be as intelligent as you are, then think there is nothing else to figure out, that you have figured out everything there is to figure out, and that what you have figured out, none of it is in error, none of it can be understood in a different manner instead? That doesn't mean you're not wrong about some things. But not wrong about everything, though?

Since you decided not to address anything I said specifically, can you at least do one thing and tell me how you interpret this parable, which I believe relates to Matthew 25:31-46...

Matthew 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

I have some questions for you to help determine how you interpret the parable. What do you think every king of sea creature that are gathered into the dragnet represent? What do you think the dragnet being full represents? I'll assume you can discern that the "good" sea creatures represent "the just" and the "bad" sea creatures represent "the wicked". So, who do you think are "the just" and "the wicked"? When do you think the end of the age will occur in relation to the return of Christ? Do you believe "the furnace of fire" is the same as the lake of fire?

 

[rvmb]

This has nothing to do with OSAS. Why do you try to make everything about that? Matthew 25:31-46 very clearly portrays all people, saved and lost, being gathered at the same time before the judgment throne/seat of Christ to give an account of themselves after Jesus comes with His angels. Why do you deny such obvious things as this?

I was questioning whether you were a clown and now have my answer

 

[Davidpt]

Okay, I will have my lawyer call you if I'm not satisfied with how you address my post.


Okay...


Oh, I love when you demand that I interpret a passage the way you say I should. How nice...


No, I don't. What is your point?


Look in the mirror.


As usual, you are trying to relate unrelated passages. You do that over and over again.

Do you understand that unbelievers will have to appear before the judgment seat of Christ and confess that Jesus is Lord? That's what these passages indicate...

Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

Philippians 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So, with the understanding that unbelievers will be appearing before the judgment seat of Christ and confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord, that explains why the goats are coming Him "Lord" in Matthew 25:31-46. Not because they have a personal relationship with Him, but because there will be no denying of who He is at that point.


There's nothing ironic about it. Your brain is just all twisted up over this ridiculous idea you have that Amil isn't compatible with NOSAS even though I've shown you otherwise many times. Will you please ask God for wisdom so that you stop believing nonsense? Don't you want to discover the truth of these things instead of relying entirely on your own fallible wisdom?


LOL. Such nonsense. If you only you knew how weak most of your arguments are. They are barely even worth responding to.


LOL at you talking to me about discernment when you are so clearly lacking in discernment. This is just pure comedy.


What in the world are you even talking about here? You need to learn how to communicate.


You are almost impossible to follow. Do you deny that unbelievers will be bowing before Jesus one day while confessing that He is Lord? That will include Cain, unrepentant atheists, unrepentant unbelieving Jews and all unbelievers from all-time.


LOL!!! You must be talking to someone else here because that's the last thing you can do for me. I believe I think about these things more deeply than most people on this forum. I'm not bragging, I'm just saying it's very clear that many people on this forum don't spend much time studying scripture.


What a joke. You don't know me at all. I guarantee I have thought these things through further than you have. That is very clear because of how you are unable to defend any challenges to your view and how you don't bother to address any points that I make. Such as what I said about Matthew 13:47-50. Did you address that? Of course not. Why not? Because you are afraid to do so.


You have to be kidding me here. You truly have no idea of what you're talking about. I have made some of the longest posts ever made on this forum, but I can't just make long posts every single time I post. Good grief. Will you please grow up already?


When have I said that? You obviously do not know me whatsoever. Not even a tiny bit. Yet, here you are acting like you are God and know everything about me.


You just are clueless. You have said nonsense like this to me before and I proceeded to tell you a few things that I changed my mind about in the past year. But, do you remember that? Of course not because you'd rather just judge me and pretend as if you know me. I can't help it that you're wrong about so many things. Don't blame me for that.

Since you once again indicated I'm hard to follow at times, and BTW, Chatgpt doesn't appear to have any issues with following me, I then used chatgpt to try and make it clearer to you what all I'm arguing and why I'm arguing what I am. This does not equal me getting my theology from Chatgpt like some others have suggested is what i'm doing in cases like that.




Chatgpt's rewording of what my points are, and why I'm arguing what I'm arguing.

------------------
Before we get to the sheep and goats, notice the context in the preceding passages.

Matthew 24:45–51 discusses professed servants of Christ, some faithful, some unfaithful.
Matthew 25:1–30 (virgins, talents) also deals with professed followers, accountable for what they do with what they’ve been given.

Observation:

Everything leading up to the sheep and goats judgment focuses on followers of Christ, not the lost in general.

Question:

If the sheep and goats are meant to represent all the lost from the beginning to the end of time, why does Jesus spend the preceding passages exclusively discussing the accountability of professed servants? Shouldn’t there be some foreshadowing that the judgment suddenly expands to all humanity? Does context count, or not?
----------------------------
Now compare the judgment pattern:

Matthew 7:21–23 deals with professed followers whose faith is exposed by lack of obedience.
Matthew 25:31–46 separates sheep and goats based on what people did or did not do “unto me”—again, works reveal the reality of their faith.
James 2:14–20 emphasizes the same principle: faith without works is dead.

Point:

Both passages evaluate professed believers, not mere verbal acknowledgment or all humanity.
The standard is about faith in action, consistent with context and preceding parables.

Question:

Why does Matthew 25 use this specific standard—evaluation of lived-out faith—if it’s meant for all humanity, rather than just professed followers?

Even if we agree that all people will eventually acknowledge Christ (Philippians 2:9–11; Romans 14:10–12), this does not change the nature of the judgment in Matthew 25.

The sheep and goats are evaluated based on faith revealed in works, not mere verbal acknowledgment.
The preceding context (Matthew 24:45–51; 25:1–30) makes it clear that the judgment concerns professed followers, not everyone from Cain onward.

Question:

How does the judgment standard for “professed servants” suddenly apply equally to all humanity across all time?
-----------------------
I agree all people will eventually acknowledge Christ. But that does not address my point:

Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 evaluate people by faith expressed in works, not verbal acknowledgment.
Context shows these judgments apply to professed followers, not every human being.

Question:

Why does Matthew 25 use this specific judgment standard—evaluation of lived-out faith—if it’s meant for all humanity?

 

[Earburner]

When did I do that? I don't recall ever doing that and I certainly didn't do it in the post you replied to.⁰


Where did I say that 2 Peter 3 mentions the lake of fire? Nowhere. I did not agree with you about that. Are you just talking to someone else here and not me. You are the one using your own fallible wisdom here, not me. You just can't stop with the churchianity nonsense. You clearly have no interest in being taken seriously.


Ah, yes, you alone have the answers and no one else. Please humble yourself before God has to do it for you. It will be more pleasant that way.

Yes, 2 Peter 3 spells it out in specific detail in verse 10:
Unfortunately, you are a literalist, as was the Pharisees. Though the Lake of fire is graphically described in 2 Peter 3, you cannot see the Lake of fire, simply because the literal words "Lake of fire" is not spelled out in 2 Peter 3

 

[rvmb]

Yes, 2 Peter 3 spells it out in specific detail in verse 10:
Unfortunately, you are a literalist, as was the Pharisees. Though the Lake of fire is graphically described in 2 Peter 3, you cannot see the Lake of fire, simply because the literal words "Lake of fire" is not spelled out in 2 Peter 3

Don't know why you bother with the ramblings of the SiSi kind

 

[Earburner]

This has nothing to do with OSAS. Why do you try to make everything about that? Matthew 25:31-46 very clearly portrays all people, saved and lost, being gathered at the same time before the judgment throne/seat of Christ to give an account of themselves after Jesus comes with His angels. Why do you deny such obvious things as this?

Lol....As a born again Christian, Jesus through His Holy Spirit within me, is 100% aware of EVERY moment of my life, whether I am awake or asleep. He will know more about me than I could ever possibly know about myself!! After all, I do tend to be very forgetful.
By the way, how many hairs do I have on my head....right now??

So then, if I'm to give to Him an account of myself upon His Glorious return, AFTER I am made to be Immortal for all eternity, I suppose all that I can say on that 24 hour Day is: "Well Jesus, I think that you know me better than I. Praise your Holy Name, thank you for saving me."

Sorry to burst your religious bubble of church-ianity, but the Judgment Seat of Christ BEGINS for all of us on the day we EACH are born again and are converted to Christ by the Gift of His Holy Spirit.

Oh and by the way, I shall add this in as an edit:
1 Peter 4:17
For the time IS COME that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[rwb]

Matthew 25:31-46 clearly refers to the GWTJ because it has people being cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41), which should easily be recognized as being the same thing as what is described in Revelation 20:15. And that passage clearly shows those who have been born again, the just, appears before the GWTJ. Not to be judged in the sense of being condemned. But, rather, to be rewarded with eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world. The word "judged" does not just mean "condemned", as you seem to think. It also can be used to describe rewards.

According to the words of Christ the just shall stand before God at the GWTJ not in mortal/corruptible body of flesh, as the unjust shall, but clothed with IMMORTAL/INCORRUPTIBLE body of flesh alive through ETERNAL SPIRIT that returned with Christ. That is the why the just shall be present with Christ at the GWT. Why? Because in life before physical death the just have already stood at the judgment seat of Christ, judged worthy to receive everlasting life THROUGH HIM the moment we were born again.

Judged is defined - to try, condemn, punish:—avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think. [G2919]

At the GWTJ the unjust shall be condemned to the lake of fire that is the second death because in life before they died, they have never stood before the judgment seat of Christ for everlasting life as righteous being born again, having part in the atoning blood of Christ's sacrificial death. The unjust are not judged through the righteousness of Christ, therefore they shall be judged according to their own righteous deeds of the flesh that can NEVER make a man righteous before God. This is what you don't seem to understand. No man standing before God is accounted righteous through our own good deeds. To stand as righteous immortal/incorruptible man of flesh before God we MUST be born again, and the unjust being condemned NEVER have been born again!

Revelation 20:13 (KJV) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And at that time we will inherit eternal life in our immortal bodies in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world in the eternal new heavens and new earth.

Again, you deny ALL who have been born again HAVE (present tense) ETERNAL LIFE through Christ. We don't wait for the bodily resurrection to possess eternal life. It is because we already HAVE eternal life through Christ that we shall stand before God clothed with IMMORTAL/INCORRUPTIBLE body of flesh changed from mortal and corruptible when Christ comes again. Because you believe our life is not eternal until we receive immortal/incorruptible body of flesh you deny eternal security through Christ's righteousness when we have been born again. It is because the life we have in Christ the moment we believe is eternal that when our mortal flesh ceases to have life, we as spiritual body still living souls go to heaven when our body dies and are as the angels of God in heaven without human form.

That is when we will inherit eternal bodily life. Obviously, our destiny is already determined before that. But, we will not have eternal, immortal bodies until the last day. Would you agree with that?

Our body of flesh is changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible and made alive again through OUR ETERNAL SPIRIT that returns with Christ. Because LIFE comes from spirit and not from our flesh. (see 1Th 4:14)

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; [SPIRIT] and man became a living soul.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; [GIVES LIFE] the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

You are trying to get into another OSAS vs. NOSAS argument and I'm not taking the bait.

I'm not trying to bait you or anyone else. I'm simply telling you why I believe you do not understand the life we have in Christ is ETERNAL from the moment we are born again! I believe it's because you cannot accept our life in Christ from the moment of rebirth is eternal through Him, that you THINK man does not possess eternal life through Christ until the resurrection at an hour that is coming when Christ comes again. You THINK our eternal life is dependent upon having immortal body of flesh. But in that, your thinking is unbiblical!

 

[Earburner]

Continuing on from my post #349, I am comparing Matthew 25:31-46 with Acts 9:3-8.
In so doing, we can see How Jesus, by His Holy Spirit within us, knows exactly what is happening to EACH member of His "body" of born again Christians AT ALL TIMES.

Mat. 25
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto ONE OF the least of these my brethren [Christians], ye have done it unto me.

Acts 9
3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Q. Who was Saul persecuting, whereby Jesus was a personal and literal witness of it?
A. Paul the Apostle, originally known as Saul of Tarsus, persecuted early Christians, particularly targeting Hellenized Jewish members who had returned to Jerusalem. His actions included imprisoning men and women who followed the teachings of Jesus.

Because Jesus dwells within each of His Saints, He is well aware of all the details of what is happening in each of our lives.

Here is another one that reveals what I am saying:
Matthew 26:29
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Jesus is within us, correct? John 14:23; Rev. 3:20.

When each of us became born again, have we not entered into the KoG? John 3:5.
Indeed we have!! I believe that through out the NT scriptures, by His Holy Spirit teaching, Jesus is revealing that our relationship with Him is much more personal than what we have been led to believe.

 

[Davidpt]

Since you decided not to address anything I said specifically, can you at least do one thing and tell me how you interpret this parable, which I believe relates to Matthew 25:31-46...

Matthew 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

I have some questions for you to help determine how you interpret the parable. What do you think every king of sea creature that are gathered into the dragnet represent? What do you think the dragnet being full represents? I'll assume you can discern that the "good" sea creatures represent "the just" and the "bad" sea creatures represent "the wicked". So, who do you think are "the just" and "the wicked"? When do you think the end of the age will occur in relation to the return of Christ? Do you believe "the furnace of fire" is the same as the lake of fire?

Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The subject is the kingdom of heaven. You apparently want us to believe that every single person on the planet, past, present, and future, are in the kingdom of heaven. You apparently want us to believe that unrepentant atheists, unrepentant satanists, unrepentant unbelieving Jews, so on and so on, are in the kingdom of heaven. Thus this net catches them as well.

Do you not realize that the net stays in the water until the end of the age and is full? What the net is basically doing is the following until it is full.

Matthew 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.


That's involving at least 2000 years. Even you agree. Per Matthew 22:10 above, do you think, unrepentant unbelieving Jews, for example, are among the good and bad gathered for the wedding?

That is what the net is accomplishing. It symbolizes being brought into the kingdom of God throughout these past 2k years. Since there is such a thing as NOSAS, this means the kingdom of God also attracts ones that end up falling away. That's who the bad fish symbolize. But the net isn't full until the end of this age. In the meantime it is still gathering fish, good fish(OSAS), bad fish(NOSAS).

And guess what? I fully agree this parable is involving the sheep and goats judgment once the net is full and that the separating of the bad fish from the good fish commences.


Once again, not every person on the planet is in the kingdom of God. Yet, in the kingdom of God there are both the good and the bad.

Clearly, you think everyone on the planet is in the kingdom of God, the fact you take the goats to mean all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time, and that you take the bad fish in the net to mean the goats. At least you got some of it right. The bad fish are clearly meaning the goats. Except the goats are not meaning all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time. They represent the NOSAS within the body of Christ. Unless you want to argue, that per Matthew 22:10, for example, the bad gathered for the wedding include unrepentant unbelieving Jews, unrepentant atheists, unrepentant satanists, Cain from the beginning of time, so on and so on.

I suspect you still don't get it and probably never will in your lifetime. Maybe doctrinal bias explains it?

 

[Davidpt]

Since you decided not to address anything I said specifically, can you at least do one thing and tell me how you interpret this parable, which I believe relates to Matthew 25:31-46...

Matthew 13:47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

I have some questions for you to help determine how you interpret the parable. What do you think every king of sea creature that are gathered into the dragnet represent? What do you think the dragnet being full represents? I'll assume you can discern that the "good" sea creatures represent "the just" and the "bad" sea creatures represent "the wicked". So, who do you think are "the just" and "the wicked"? When do you think the end of the age will occur in relation to the return of Christ? Do you believe "the furnace of fire" is the same as the lake of fire?

Post #352 had nothing to do with Chatgpt, but the following does. After I made that post I then asked Chatgpt the following, curious about it's opinion. BTW, it's pretty sad when something like Chatgpt has better discernment than some professed Christians do at times.

-------------------
Me:

An Amil is arguing that the net, per the Matthew 13 parable, catches everyone on the planet, apparently. This Amil is disregarding context, IMO. The subject is the kingdom of heaven. Atheists, for example. The kingdom of heaven means nothing to them one way or the other. Plus, if the good fish and bad fish are supposed to mean every single person on the planet, shouldn't that then mean the net catches every single fish in the water? Wouldn't that be the logic if this Amil was correct?
-----


Chatgpt:

If we look at the context of the parable—Matthew 13:47-50—we see that Jesus is using the net to represent the kingdom of heaven, which is a theme that consistently involves those who respond to the gospel or are in some way associated with God's work on earth. The kingdom of heaven, in Biblical terms, refers to God's reign, His rule, and the people who submit to that rule—it's not an indiscriminate gathering of everyone in the world, but rather those who are exposed to the gospel and the teachings of the kingdom.

Why the "Net" Doesn't Mean Everyone on the Planet

When this Amil argues that the net catches everyone (including atheists, for example), they are stretching the metaphor beyond its natural meaning in this context. Atheists, by definition, would have no association with the "kingdom of heaven," as it represents the reign of Christ, which they reject. The same can be said for others who aren't receptive to the gospel.

The net isn't about gathering everyone indiscriminately; it's about gathering those who come in contact with the kingdom. The "sea" in the parable is the world, yes, but it doesn't mean that every person in the world is automatically part of the kingdom. If that were the case, then the net would indeed catch every fish—including those who are entirely indifferent to or hostile toward God's kingdom. This would contradict the way the kingdom is portrayed in Scripture.

Context of the Kingdom of Heaven:

To answer your question more directly: Yes, if the net were truly meant to catch every single person on the planet, the logic would indeed be that it catches every fish in the water. But the context of Matthew 13—the subject being the kingdom of heaven—makes it clear that the net symbolizes the gospel going out and gathering those who respond to it (the "good fish" and "bad fish").

If the net were to symbolize the entirety of humanity, regardless of response to God’s kingdom, then that would mean everyone, including those who are opposed to it (atheists, for instance), are being brought in as part of God’s kingdom. But that doesn't align with the biblical concept of the kingdom. Jesus' parables often deal with people who hear the word of God, whether they respond or reject it. The "net" captures those who have heard the gospel and have had some association with God's rule.


The fact that some "bad fish" are separated indicates that not all who enter the net (the gospel’s reach) are ultimately faithful or enduring in the kingdom. So, the "bad fish" are not just random people, but those who respond to the gospel in a superficial or unfaithful way—including those who might have outwardly been in the kingdom but never truly embraced Christ’s rule.

The Amil Position:

The Amillennial interpretation you’re addressing tends to blur the lines between the kingdom of heaven and the world at large. It often suggests that everyone in the world is in some sense part of God's kingdom by the mere fact that the gospel is proclaimed to all. However, this can be a problematic stretch.

If we take the net to represent the kingdom of heaven, and it gathers both "good" and "bad" fish, then we must acknowledge that the "bad" fish are ultimately rejected at the final judgment because they were never truly part of the kingdom in the salvific sense. They might have been externally part of the church or appeared to belong to the kingdom, but they never truly accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior.
If the kingdom of heaven is about Christ’s reign, then it logically follows that those who reject Christ and live outside of that reign (e.g., atheists, non-believers, etc.) are not part of the kingdom and thus would not be in the net, in any meaningful sense. This is one of the flaws in the Amillennial interpretation that tries to make the net about everyone, regardless of their faith.
The Takeaway:

You’re correct to challenge the logic of treating the net as universal in the way that the Amil suggests. If the net really were meant to catch every person on the planet, then by extension, the “good” and “bad” fish would all be part of the kingdom, and that would contradict the entire premise of judgment at the end of the age. The "bad" fish are specifically those who, while perhaps associated with the kingdom in some external way (through church membership, exposure to the gospel, etc.), did not truly live under God’s rule or receive His salvation.

The parable's message is about the reality of God’s kingdom in the world, the mixed nature of the church (good and bad), and the eventual, final separation that will happen when Christ returns. It's not about every person in the world, regardless of their response to Christ, being automatically included in the "kingdom."

 

[rwb]

Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The subject is the kingdom of heaven. You apparently want us to believe that every single person on the planet, past, present, and future, are in the kingdom of heaven. You apparently want us to believe that unrepentant atheists, unrepentant satanists, unrepentant unbelieving Jews, so on and so on, are in the kingdom of heaven. Thus this net catches them as well.

Do you not realize that the net stays in the water until the end of the age and is full? What the net is basically doing is the following until it is full.

Matthew 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.


That's involving at least 2000 years. Even you agree. Per Matthew 22:10 above, do you think, unrepentant unbelieving Jews, for example, are among the good and bad gathered for the wedding?

That is what the net is accomplishing. It symbolizes being brought into the kingdom of God throughout these past 2k years. Since there is such a thing as NOSAS, this means the kingdom of God also attracts ones that end up falling away. That's who the bad fish symbolize. But the net isn't full until the end of this age. In the meantime it is still gathering fish, good fish(OSAS), bad fish(NOSAS).

And guess what? I fully agree this parable is involving the sheep and goats judgment once the net is full and that the separating of the bad fish from the good fish commences.


Once again, not every person on the planet is in the kingdom of God. Yet, in the kingdom of God there are both the good and the bad.

Clearly, you think everyone on the planet is in the kingdom of God, the fact you take the goats to mean all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time, and that you take the bad fish in the net to mean the goats. At least you got some of it right. The bad fish are clearly meaning the goats. Except the goats are not meaning all of the lost from the beginning of time through the end of time. They represent the NOSAS within the body of Christ. Unless you want to argue, that per Matthew 22:10, for example, the bad gathered for the wedding include unrepentant unbelieving Jews, unrepentant atheists, unrepentant satanists, Cain from the beginning of time, so on and so on.

I suspect you still don't get it and probably never will in your lifetime. Maybe doctrinal bias explains it?

The subject here is as you say the Kingdom of God/Heaven. When Christ speaks a parable of the Kingdom of God/Heaven He is not referring to ALL of humanity saying all are of Christ or all are in unbelief. He is giving an analogy of the Kingdom of God/Heaven that spiritually exits on this earth as the church. All of these parables tell us that those who call themselves Christians within the body of Christ called 'church' are not all there out of love for Christ and His flowerers, not all who say Lord, Lord have been born again. What all the parables boil down to is the FACT that within or among the body of Christ, called 'the church' on earth are both born-again believers as well as those who appear to be born-again believers but are not. The Kingdom of God/Heaven in this age of time will never be spotless and pure until Christ comes again.

Acts 20:29-31 (KJV) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Romans 16:17-18 (KJV) Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

2 Peter 2:1-2 (KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

Christ, knowing that the body of Christ, called church in this age of time shall always be polluted by those false professors of faith in Christ, therefore at the GWTJ after Christ returns He will send His angels to gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend, and do iniquity, and cast them into a furnace of fire (LOF) that is the second death.

Matthew 13:41-42 (KJV) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:49-50 (KJV) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The goats in this particular parable are the unsaved among the saved (sheep), who will be gathered out from among the faithful saints in the Kingdom of God/Heaven called the church. However, after time given this earth is finished, at the great white throne judgment ALL of the DEAD (all of unsaved mankind, not only those who call themselves Christian among believers in the church, and are not) must give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life, whether the dead are among the born-again believers called church or simply those in this world who were never among the body of Christ called Church, they shall all have part in the lake of fire that is the second death. When Christ speaks of the GWTJ He is NOT speaking a parable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since you once again indicated I'm hard to follow at times, and BTW, Chatgpt doesn't appear to have any issues with following me, I then used chatgpt to try and make it clearer to you what all I'm arguing and why I'm arguing what I am. This does not equal me getting my theology from Chatgpt like some others have suggested is what i'm doing in cases like that.




Chatgpt's rewording of what my points are, and why I'm arguing what I'm arguing.

------------------
Before we get to the sheep and goats, notice the context in the preceding passages.

Matthew 24:45–51 discusses professed servants of Christ, some faithful, some unfaithful.
Matthew 25:1–30 (virgins, talents) also deals with professed followers, accountable for what they do with what they’ve been given.

Observation:

Everything leading up to the sheep and goats judgment focuses on followers of Christ, not the lost in general.

Question:

If the sheep and goats are meant to represent all the lost from the beginning to the end of time, why does Jesus spend the preceding passages exclusively discussing the accountability of professed servants? Shouldn’t there be some foreshadowing that the judgment suddenly expands to all humanity? Does context count, or not?
----------------------------
Now compare the judgment pattern:

Matthew 7:21–23 deals with professed followers whose faith is exposed by lack of obedience.
Matthew 25:31–46 separates sheep and goats based on what people did or did not do “unto me”—again, works reveal the reality of their faith.
James 2:14–20 emphasizes the same principle: faith without works is dead.

Point:

Both passages evaluate professed believers, not mere verbal acknowledgment or all humanity.
The standard is about faith in action, consistent with context and preceding parables.

Question:

Why does Matthew 25 use this specific standard—evaluation of lived-out faith—if it’s meant for all humanity, rather than just professed followers?

Even if we agree that all people will eventually acknowledge Christ (Philippians 2:9–11; Romans 14:10–12), this does not change the nature of the judgment in Matthew 25.

The sheep and goats are evaluated based on faith revealed in works, not mere verbal acknowledgment.
The preceding context (Matthew 24:45–51; 25:1–30) makes it clear that the judgment concerns professed followers, not everyone from Cain onward.

Question:

How does the judgment standard for “professed servants” suddenly apply equally to all humanity across all time?
-----------------------
I agree all people will eventually acknowledge Christ. But that does not address my point:

Matthew 7 and Matthew 25 evaluate people by faith expressed in works, not verbal acknowledgment.
Context shows these judgments apply to professed followers, not every human being.

Question:

Why does Matthew 25 use this specific judgment standard—evaluation of lived-out faith—if it’s meant for all humanity?

You can manipulate ChatGPT to say almost anything you want with how you word your questions. This is meaningless. Don't waste your time with this stuff on me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I was questioning whether you were a clown and now have my answer

Says the guy who is AFRAID to address my arguments. I bring up Isaiah 45:22-24 that Paul referenced and you are too AFRAID to address what that passage indicates. Why are you so AFRAID to dig deeper to see what scripture teaches? Are you just that intent on believing what you want to believe?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, 2 Peter 3 spells it out in specific detail in verse 10:
Unfortunately, you are a literalist, as was the Pharisees.

LOL! You are so foolish sometimes. I am not a literalist. It's practically impossible to be an Amil and be a literalist. But, go ahead and misrepresent me if you insist. You do it often. I just don't spiritualize every verse in the Bible like you do. I seriously wonder if you believe in physical reality or not.

Though the Lake of fire is graphically described in 2 Peter 3, you cannot see the Lake of fire, simply because the literal words "Lake of fire" is not spelled out in 2 Peter 3

LOL. The lake of fire is absolutely not described in 2 Peter 3:10-12. That is absolutely ludicrous. It's describing physical fire that will dissolve the heavens and burn up the earth. Jesus will physically destroy the earth when He comes. The lake of fire describes what will happen after that when Jesus casts unbelievers into the lake of fire. Your lack of discernment is astounding.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So then, if I'm to give to Him an account of myself upon His Glorious return, AFTER I am made to be Immortal for all eternity, I suppose all that I can say on that 24 hour Day is: "Well Jesus, I think that you know better than I. Praise your Holy Name, thank you for saving me."

Paul very specifically says that we all have to give an account of ourselves to Jesus while appearing before Him. If that's what you say, that's fine, but for you to deny that will happen is just mind boggling. You are going to be very surprised.

Sorry to burst your religious bubble of church-ianity,

There you go with your stupid, foolish churchianity nonsense again. Churchianity has nothing to do with what I believe.

but the Judgment Seat of Christ BEGINS for all of us on the day we EACH are born again and are converted to Christ by the Gift of His Holy Spirit.

Oh and by the way, I shall add this in as an edit:
1 Peter 4:17
For the time IS COME that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Your foolishness is just amazing to me. I wonder if you will refuse to give an account of yourself to Jesus when appearing before Him after He comes because you will insist that it's not supposed to be like that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Post #352 had nothing to do with Chatgpt, but the following does. After I made that post I then asked Chatgpt the following, curious about it's opinion. BTW, it's pretty sad when something like Chatgpt has better discernment than some professed Christians do at times.

-------------------
Me:

An Amil is arguing that the net, per the Matthew 13 parable, catches everyone on the planet, apparently. This Amil is disregarding context, IMO. The subject is the kingdom of heaven. Atheists, for example. The kingdom of heaven means nothing to them one way or the other. Plus, if the good fish and bad fish are supposed to mean every single person on the planet, shouldn't that then mean the net catches every single fish in the water? Wouldn't that be the logic if this Amil was correct?
-----


Chatgpt:

If we look at the context of the parable—Matthew 13:47-50—we see that Jesus is using the net to represent the kingdom of heaven, which is a theme that consistently involves those who respond to the gospel or are in some way associated with God's work on earth. The kingdom of heaven, in Biblical terms, refers to God's reign, His rule, and the people who submit to that rule—it's not an indiscriminate gathering of everyone in the world, but rather those who are exposed to the gospel and the teachings of the kingdom.

Why the "Net" Doesn't Mean Everyone on the Planet

When this Amil argues that the net catches everyone (including atheists, for example), they are stretching the metaphor beyond its natural meaning in this context. Atheists, by definition, would have no association with the "kingdom of heaven," as it represents the reign of Christ, which they reject. The same can be said for others who aren't receptive to the gospel.

The net isn't about gathering everyone indiscriminately; it's about gathering those who come in contact with the kingdom. The "sea" in the parable is the world, yes, but it doesn't mean that every person in the world is automatically part of the kingdom. If that were the case, then the net would indeed catch every fish—including those who are entirely indifferent to or hostile toward God's kingdom. This would contradict the way the kingdom is portrayed in Scripture.

Context of the Kingdom of Heaven:

To answer your question more directly: Yes, if the net were truly meant to catch every single person on the planet, the logic would indeed be that it catches every fish in the water. But the context of Matthew 13—the subject being the kingdom of heaven—makes it clear that the net symbolizes the gospel going out and gathering those who respond to it (the "good fish" and "bad fish").

If the net were to symbolize the entirety of humanity, regardless of response to God’s kingdom, then that would mean everyone, including those who are opposed to it (atheists, for instance), are being brought in as part of God’s kingdom. But that doesn't align with the biblical concept of the kingdom. Jesus' parables often deal with people who hear the word of God, whether they respond or reject it. The "net" captures those who have heard the gospel and have had some association with God's rule.


The fact that some "bad fish" are separated indicates that not all who enter the net (the gospel’s reach) are ultimately faithful or enduring in the kingdom. So, the "bad fish" are not just random people, but those who respond to the gospel in a superficial or unfaithful way—including those who might have outwardly been in the kingdom but never truly embraced Christ’s rule.

The Amil Position:

The Amillennial interpretation you’re addressing tends to blur the lines between the kingdom of heaven and the world at large. It often suggests that everyone in the world is in some sense part of God's kingdom by the mere fact that the gospel is proclaimed to all. However, this can be a problematic stretch.

If we take the net to represent the kingdom of heaven, and it gathers both "good" and "bad" fish, then we must acknowledge that the "bad" fish are ultimately rejected at the final judgment because they were never truly part of the kingdom in the salvific sense. They might have been externally part of the church or appeared to belong to the kingdom, but they never truly accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior.
If the kingdom of heaven is about Christ’s reign, then it logically follows that those who reject Christ and live outside of that reign (e.g., atheists, non-believers, etc.) are not part of the kingdom and thus would not be in the net, in any meaningful sense. This is one of the flaws in the Amillennial interpretation that tries to make the net about everyone, regardless of their faith.
The Takeaway:

You’re correct to challenge the logic of treating the net as universal in the way that the Amil suggests. If the net really were meant to catch every person on the planet, then by extension, the “good” and “bad” fish would all be part of the kingdom, and that would contradict the entire premise of judgment at the end of the age. The "bad" fish are specifically those who, while perhaps associated with the kingdom in some external way (through church membership, exposure to the gospel, etc.), did not truly live under God’s rule or receive His salvation.

The parable's message is about the reality of God’s kingdom in the world, the mixed nature of the church (good and bad), and the eventual, final separation that will happen when Christ returns. It's not about every person in the world, regardless of their response to Christ, being automatically included in the "kingdom."

LOL! You are not even capable of thinking for yourself anymore. Your reliance on ChatGPT is absolutely pathetic. You manipulated ChatGPT to agree with you with the way you worded your question. Do you think that's supposed to convince me that your interpretation is correct? Think again.

Here is the response I got from ChatGPT without any attempt to manipulate it to say what I wanted it to say:

Question: What does Matthew 13:47-50 mean?

ChatGPT Response:

Matthew 13:47–50 is one of Jesus’ short parables about the Kingdom of Heaven. Here’s a clear breakdown of what it means:

---

The imagery (what’s happening in the story)​

Jesus describes:

• A net thrown into the sea that gathers all kinds of fish
• Fishermen who later sort the good fish from the bad
• The good are kept; the bad are thrown away

---

The meaning (what it represents)​

1. The net = God’s Kingdom reaching everyone​

The net gathering all kinds of fish represents how God’s message goes out broadly—all people are included in the invitation, not just a select group.

---

2. The fish = humanity​

The mix of good and bad fish symbolizes all kinds of people—those who follow God and those who don’t.

---

3. The sorting = final judgment​

The separation at the end represents a future moment of judgment:

• The “good fish” → those who truly belong to God
• The “bad fish” → those who reject or ignore Him

This connects to the idea of a final judgment also described elsewhere in the Bible.

---

4. “Furnace of fire” = consequence of separation from God​

The harsh imagery emphasizes that choices have real, eternal consequences. It’s not meant to be casual—it’s a serious warning.

---

The core message​

This parable teaches:

• God’s invitation is open to everyone
• Not everyone who is “gathered” is truly transformed
• There will be a final separation based on genuine faith and righteousness
• Now is the time to respond—not later

---

How it fits with nearby parables​

This comes right after similar teachings like the Parable of the Weeds, which also emphasizes waiting until the end for judgment rather than sorting people now.

---

In simple terms​

It’s like Jesus is saying:

“Right now, good and bad are mixed together in the world—but one day, God will sort everything out.”

End of ChatGPT response.

Notice how it indicates that it's talking about all people being separated into two groups. Not just true believers and false believers, as you imagine. I hope some day you actually grow up and think for yourself and look at scripture objectively while not relying on faulty AI sources like ChatGPT.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

According to the words of Christ the just shall stand before God at the GWTJ not in mortal/corruptible body of flesh, as the unjust shall, but clothed with IMMORTAL/INCORRUPTIBLE body of flesh alive through ETERNAL SPIRIT that returned with Christ.

Yes, of course. I didn't say otherwise.

Judged is defined - to try, condemn, punish:—avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think. [G2919]

Judgment can include giving out rewards as well, as can be clearly seen in Matthew 25:31-46 where it portrays believers as being rewarded with eternal life in the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world.

At the GWTJ the unjust shall be condemned to the lake of fire that is the second death because in life before they died, they have never stood before the judgment seat of Christ for everlasting life as righteous being born again, having part in the atoning blood of Christ's sacrificial death.

The GWTJ is the judgment seat of Christ. Matthew 25:31-46 portrays the second coming of Jesus with His angels at which point He will sit on His judgment seat/throne will all people gathered before Him.

The unjust are not judged through the righteousness of Christ, therefore they shall be judged according to their own righteous deeds of the flesh that can NEVER make a man righteous before God. This is what you don't seem to understand.

I fully understand that. I also understand that you have poor reading comprehension skills. I have NEVER said ANYTHING to indicate that I believe "righteous deeds of the flesh" can "make a man righteous before God". As scripture says, our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). What God wants all people to do is acknowledge that they are not righteous and are sinners in need of His mercy and forgiveness.

No man standing before God is accounted righteous through our own good deeds.

Of course not. We are counted righteous because of what Christ did for us.

To stand as righteous immortal/incorruptible man of flesh before God we MUST be born again, and the unjust being condemned NEVER have been born again!

No kidding. Do you think I don't know those things? You clearly don't read what I say carefully at all. You waste your time with these strawman arguments because of that.

Again, you deny ALL who have been born again HAVE (present tense) ETERNAL LIFE through Christ.

You deny that scripture warns believers about being careful to keep their faith and to not depart from God even though it does so several times. You think believers can just ignore those warnings because they won't apply to us. That is because you have been deceived by the false doctrinal system known as Calvinism.

In Romans 11 Paul talks about Jewish unbelievers being cut off because of unbelief and then talks about Gentile believers who have been grafted in needing to be careful or else they too could be cut off (Romans 11:22). Do you take such warnings seriously? Of course not, because you're blinded by Calvinism.

We don't wait for the bodily resurrection to possess eternal life. It is because we already HAVE eternal life through Christ that we shall stand before God clothed with IMMORTAL/INCORRUPTIBLE body of flesh changed from mortal and corruptible when Christ comes again. Because you believe our life is not eternal until we receive immortal/incorruptible body of flesh you deny eternal security through Christ's righteousness when we have been born again.

I deny what scripture does not teach. I do not ignore the warnings that are clearly given to believers about falling away from the faith, as you do. Jesus said: "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life." (Revelation 2:10). We must be faithful until we die in order to receive eternal life. You deny this. You think we can be faithful one time and then eternal life is given. Scripture does not teach that. You have been terribly deceived by Calvinism.

I'm not trying to bait you or anyone else.

Yes, you are. I've made it clear that I didn't want to discuss that topic again and you keep bringing it up, anyway.

I'm simply telling you why I believe you do not understand the life we have in Christ is ETERNAL from the moment we are born again!

I have told you several times that you are wrong about this. You ignore the warnings that are clearly given to born again believers about falling away.

I believe it's because you cannot accept our life in Christ from the moment of rebirth is eternal through Him, that you THINK man does not possess eternal life through Christ until the resurrection at an hour that is coming when Christ comes again.

No, eternal life is secured if we are faithful unto death, as Jesus Himself taught. We don't have to wait until the resurrection for that. If the resurrection was what made our eternal life secure, then those who are alive when Jesus comes would be out of luck since they will not die and not be resurrected.

You THINK our eternal life is dependent upon having immortal body of flesh. But in that, your thinking is unbiblical!

No, our eternal spiritual life is secured upon our physical death. Again, as Jesus said, if we are faithful unto death then we will receive a crown of life which symbolically represents eternal life. Then, later, when He comes again, we will inherit eternal bodily life, as Matthew 25:31-46 indicates.