The tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

[quietthinker]

For some reason I believe that is the route Sodom and Gomorrah took.

If moral laws do not exist then what remains is lawlessness.
There needs to be a foundation.
How can there be conviction of right or wrong if everything is covered under a blanket of grace.
We are told that God will not hold us innocent for knowing to do good and do evil.
How do we know what is good or evil with direction, rules or laws.
Your parents tell you don't lie, don't steal, don't cheat. These are moral laws which originate in the golden 10.

I don't understand how moral laws can not apply to Christians.
If we should make a mistake, or fall, or do the morally wrong thing,
we are not instantly condemned to death as was in the OT, when you broke the law you were immediately stoned without mercy.
We live under grace where we are given the opportunity for forgiveness if we confess our sins, or immorality.

Without a moral code to live by, we would become as Sodom and Gomorrah.
Look around, it's happening before our very eyes.

We don't need to carry a tablet written with these moral laws because they are already written in our hearts.
It doesn't mean we live without them, or they don't apply. On the contrary, they are embedded in our hearts and in our minds.

Grace is being able to say your sorry and receiving forgiveness. Not being condemned without mercy as it had been.

That's my 2 cents.
Hugs

Folk make lots and lots of religious words about the 10 C's zig zag because fundamentally they want an excuse to violate them instead of just acknowledging them and obeying them.

The thing is, the bar of love is so much higher than the 10C's though these same folk make lotsa noises about love.
I do not commit adultery yet am unkind to my wife yet boast in my heart I have not committed adultery and so on.
Cognitive dissonance is rampant.....Jesus refers to it as hypocrisy.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The law is external; the Spirit is internal. Jesus said that He would give us the Holy Spirit and that He (the Spirit) would guide us into all truth. John 16:13, "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth." We are moral because of the Holy Spirit within us, not because of a set of external laws that are impossible to keep. The principles of the moral law remain but the law itself has no authority.

I disagree with "Christ’s sacrifice covered past sins and mistakes in judgment thereafter, but repentance is required or no forgiveness can be expected". Our sins -- all of them -- are forgiven because of the price that Jesus paid on the cross. We have total forgiveness of sins because of His sacrifice.

I appreciate this discussion! It is far more reasonable than a lot of the posts I read which are "off the wall".

@Ziggy has given you a very good explanation as to why those who think that they have a license to sin under Grace, are kidding themselves. Unless there is repentance no forgiveness is possible. Why would God give his laws to anyone if they were not important to him? For those who think otherwise a future shock awaits them, I believe. Why else could Jesus utterly reject those who claim him as their “Lord” but who fail to “do the will of the Father”? (Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23)

 

[GodsGrace]

Didn't Jesus destroy the moral law on the cross by His death according to Romans7:4?

Hi SC
@Episkopos will give you a good answer, I'm sure.

I have this to say:
Jesus destroyed The Law on the cross.
This is the law that was given to the Israelites in the books of Exodus - Deuteronomy...there are 613 of them.
We Christians are not under these laws...THEY were nailed to the cross.
The entire attitude toward laws was nailed to the cross, but I think this is something that will take some time for you to understand...
sorry, but it seems as if you don't, sorry if you do.

There were 3 types of law in the OT.
CEREMONIAL, CIVIL and MORAL.

The Moral Law, which is the 10 commandments and the teachings Jesus left us with, will NEVER be abolished.
God gave the Moral Law....Moses gave many of the other laws which comprise the 613.

Romans is not an easy book to understand...keep reading it and concentrate on what it means to follow The Law instead of Grace.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes! And we have being/been risen to the eternal light in the process to serve God as he desires in true righteousness via his Son's death and shed blood on the Cross.

We now obey the new Spirit that inhabits within us. We serve it and thus God and not any moral code or law previously laid down by God to his people that never brought true righteousness and salvation.

Welcome to this site...

Such a superficial response to someone that is new in understanding the Law...
and what have you told him basically?
That it's not necessary to follow the Law of Christ...

What's all this babble about obeying the "new Spirit"?
HOW do we SERVE IT?
How does it NOT bring true righteousness if all Jesus said is to OBEY?
What does "we have been risen to eternal light" mean to a new Christian?

And don't be writing me back that I don't understand about grace.
You and @Jim B, who gave you a like, understand what you're talking about, and so do I,
but I doubt a new Christian does.

I'd speak in a way he could understand....

See my post 265, I'm not saying I don't agree...
it's just that it makes no sense to some persons.

 

[Jim B]

It is true that Christians are not under the ceremonial or sacrificial parts of the law of Moses, but Jesus himself reiterated many things from the moral aspects of the law in his teachings, and the apostles also restated these things in their letters, (marriage, sexual immorality etc) so I cannot understand anyone saying that the moral laws do not apply. Even remaining wrathful with a brother was condemned by Jesus.

“Grace” is not a license to sin. OSAS is not scriptural. Christ’s sacrifice covered past sins and mistakes in judgment thereafter, but repentance is required or no forgiveness can be expected. Repentance means not repeating a past sin because you know better and can exercise self-control. (a fruit or product do God’s spirit)

If I have misunderstood your post please correct me.

You're going astray from what I said. The law of Moses (or any laws created by the church) are external! While the principles may apply, it is impossible to keep the OT law. If you violate one principle of the (external) law you're guilty. Period.

Christ died so that the penalties for violating the OT law no longer apply. He was the final sacrifice for all people for all time. Those who accept His sacrifice on their behalf are not guilty.

You wrote that "Christ’s sacrifice covered past sins and mistakes in judgment thereafter, but repentance is required or no forgiveness can be expected." That is self-contradictory! Either your sins -- all of them, past, present, and future -- are forgiven because of Jesus' sacrifice or they're not.

 

[Jim B]

Hi SC
@Episkopos will give you a good answer, I'm sure.

I have this to say:
Jesus destroyed The Law on the cross.
This is the law that was given to the Israelites in the books of Exodus - Deuteronomy...there are 613 of them.
We Christians are not under these laws...THEY were nailed to the cross.
The entire attitude toward laws was nailed to the cross, but I think this is something that will take some time for you to understand...
sorry, but it seems as if you don't, sorry if you do.

There were 3 types of law in the OT.
CEREMONIAL, CIVIL and MORAL.

The Moral Law, which is the 10 commandments and the teachings Jesus left us with, will NEVER be abolished.
God gave the Moral Law....Moses gave many of the other laws which comprise the 613.

Romans is not an easy book to understand...keep reading it and concentrate on what it means to follow The Law instead of Grace.

You say that Jesus destroyed The Law on the cross, then state that the Moral Law, which is the 10 commandments and the teachings Jesus left us with, will NEVER be abolished. That is self-contradictory. Either Jesus destroyed the law on the cross -- all of it -- or He didn't.

Then you say that We Christians are not under these laws...THEY were nailed to the cross. That is self-contradictory!

Christians are not under law but under grace. Romans 7:4-6 makes this perfectly clear: "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

 

[APAK]

Such a superficial response to someone that is new in understanding the Law...
and what have you told him basically?
That it's not necessary to follow the Law of Christ...

What's all this babble about obeying the "new Spirit"?
HOW do we SERVE IT?
How does it NOT bring true righteousness if all Jesus said is to OBEY?
What does "we have been risen to eternal light" mean to a new Christian?

And don't be writing me back that I don't understand about grace.
You and @Jim B, who gave you a like, understand what you're talking about, and so do I,
but I doubt a new Christian does.

I'd speak in a way he could understand....

See my post 265, I'm not saying I don't agree...
it's just that it makes no sense to some persons.

GG, when we have the Spirit operating within us, we have the Law(s) of Christ operating within us impinged in our heart, that also contains the much superior moral code imprinted in our heart and not externally, through primitive physical works or rituals or using man's justice system. I'm a little surprised that my previous post offended you. It was bang on and the truth as I see it, and per scripture. I was never going to hit you over the head over the subject of grace. Many folks use the term 'grace,' and still do not know what it really means.....for another subject. 'Obedience' is another term not really understood by many as it applies to a convert in the spirit of Christ....

Great Week GG

Bless you, APAK

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Totally unimportant. The"tree", and it's "fruit" weren't ever the issue.

The issue was that Eve, and then Adam tossed God under the bus, in favor of satan's offer - IN SPITE of God's instruction NOT TO EAT OF THAT TREE.

you said “Totally unimportant. The"tree", and it's "fruit" weren't ever the issue.” honestly that is confusing to think about considering “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.” Matthew 12:33

 

[Aunty Jane]

You're going astray from what I said. The law of Moses (or any laws created by the church) are external! While the principles may apply, it is impossible to keep the OT law. If you violate one principle of the (external) law you're guilty. Period.

Christ died so that the penalties for violating the OT law no longer apply. He was the final sacrifice for all people for all time. Those who accept His sacrifice on their behalf are not guilty.

You wrote that "Christ’s sacrifice covered past sins and mistakes in judgment thereafter, but repentance is required or no forgiveness can be expected." That is self-contradictory! Either your sins -- all of them, past, present, and future -- are forgiven because of Jesus' sacrifice or they're not.

Is forgiveness conditional? I believe it is. It is available to all without prejudice, but it has conditions, just as continuing life had conditions in Eden. They could continue to enjoy a life without end in paradise, if they just obeyed one simple command that imposed no hardship on them whatsoever.

A liar talked them out of that and now we are all suffering because of their actions. But Jesus paid the ransom to free us from the debt left to us by them. It's not for willful unrepentant sinners, but for those willing to obey the commands of God through Jesus' teachings. Jesus said that there are only two laws under which Christians are to live....
Matthew 22:34-40...
"After the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they came together in one group. 35 And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

The whole of God's law was based on those two, so we have to keep both, because you can't have one without the other....and since "faith without works is dead"....we have to have the works to back up or demonstrate our faith. One of those is to repent and turn around from a sinful course and another is to forgive those who sin against us. Unless we do those things, God will not forgive us. (Matthew 18:31-35)

Just because you call yourself a Christian, or claim Jesus is your "Lord", doesn't mean you are one. (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[APAK]

Being unclothed in God's most holy presence was righteousness for Adam & Eve. You agree?

Yes, in short they were without sin at that point and in righteousness.

 

[Curtis]

Gal4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Aren't you redeemed by being freed from the moral law?

Murder is still a sin in the new covenant, so is adultery, stealing, etc, God’s moral law never ends.

It’s the law of Moses with its 613 statutes, ordinances, and commands that ended with the new covenant, not moral law.

The New Testament still defines sin as the transgression of the law:

1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Gods moral law is now found in the two love commands, wherein if you love your neighbor as yourself you won’t kill him, steal from him, commit adultery with his wife, or bear false testimony against him, etc.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

you said “Totally unimportant. The"tree", and it's "fruit" weren't ever the issue.” honestly that is confusing to think about considering “Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.” Matthew 12:33

Chuckle!! Apparently the Fruit of the tree was VERY GOOD. Totally unimportant, however, since the only real problem was that they ate it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Gal4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Aren't you redeemed by being freed from the moral law?

Them that were under the Law is referring to the Jews. Will write more later.

Are you honestly asking or debating?
I ask because you seem interested but also know the NT well.

If you're asking I could join this thread...
If you're debating then I'd rather not due to time constraints.

This is an important topic.

 

[GodsGrace]

Without the knowledge of good & evil which God prohibited Adam and Eve from choosing, how would you know what you did was a sin?

You're a smart cookie!

 

[GodsGrace]

Murder is still a sin in the new covenant, so is adultery, stealing, etc, God moral law never ends.

It’s the law of Moses with its 613 statutes, ordinances, and commands that ended with the new covenant, not moral law.

The New Testament still defines sin as the transgression of the law:

1John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Gods moral law is now found in the two love commands, wherein if you love your neighbor as yourself you won’t kill him, steal from him, commit adultery with his wife, or bear false testimony against him, etc.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Great post.
Very clear.

 

[Lambano]

I find these two verses interesting.

All who have sinned outside the framework of Torah will die outside the framework of Torah; and all who have sinned within the framework of Torah will be judged by Torah. (Romans 2:12)

Sin was indeed present in the world before Torah was given, but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah. (Romans 5:13)

I'm free-associating here. (Sorry; it's what I do sometimes.) Torah defines what Sin is. But what's the point of not having your sin judged if you're dead? Dead is dead. What Adam and Eve chose was not the "moral law" (shout out to @Saved Christian), but rather the experiential knowledge of Good and Evil. Is the experiential knowledge of Good and Evil itself Good or Evil (referring back to @VictoryinJesus's OP)? Recursive function. The knowledge of Good and Evil is allegedly a property of God Himself (see Genesis 3:5, but consider the source is the Serpent), so does that make this a good tree? Its presence in the garden indicates to me that God had every intention that humanity would choose it, and I need to trust God in everything, even when it hurts. And Evil hurts. We have the promise that we will one day be free of this Power that enslaves our minds, but I conclude we will still retain the knowledge of Good and Evil, because that was Part of the Plan (cue Dan Fogelberg) from the beginning, and I trust God's Plan.

Stream-of-consciousness. To the outside world,it sure must look like I'm smoking dried Oolong tea leaves again. Okay, I'll stop.

(And I refuse to touch Cheetos!)

 

[Ziggy]

IIMHO,
Adam and Eve already had the commandments wriiten in their heart.
Perhaps that's why God had to make a woman, to fulfill the law of love they neighbor.
So God made a woman as a help meet for Adam. How can you love your neighbor when there is no one like yourself to help?
anywho, I just thought of that...

But the sin that they committed was the least of the 10. Covetousness.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods.
God told them they could eat of every tree, except one.

By breaking the 10th, they in fact broke them all.
They left their first love. 1. Love God with all your heart, mind, soul.
They wanted to be their own gods. 2. Have no other gods before me.
They did not honor their Father. 5.
They lied. 6.
They stole. 7.
They flirted with the devil. 8. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Frankly I believe they took of the tree on the Sabbath while God was resting. 4.
And Eve had added to what God said. 3. Taking the Lord's name in vain.
9 and 10 coveting thy neighbors goods.
not in that order, but close..

Which when summed up under two commandments, they broke them both.
God was not only their father, he was their neighbor.
For as often as ye do it to the least of these, ye have done it unto me.

The finger pointing... she made me do it, the devil made me do it.
They hid from the light, they had fallen into darkness.
They were ashamed but they didn't confess their sin, they tried to put it on the goats head. scapegoat.

All sin fell on them. Boom.
And they became seperated from the union with God.

For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife.
Adam already prophesied that this seperation was coming.
Eve should have listened to her husband, but she listened to the snake.

And Adam was obligated to cover for his wife. Divorce wasn't in the cards at the time.

So, this is why I believe Adam and Eve already had the law written in their hearts and minds.
By the time Moses comes around the peoples heart were hard calloused and stony,
so he gave them the law written in stone.
Because the heart is most decietful.

just rambling..
Nice to meet you Saved Christian,
Hugs

 

[APAK]

Doesn't the gospel Jesus has delivered from the moral law need to be preached globally? Churches refuse to give up the knowledge of good & evil, right?

Very astute. Now you have hit upon a point where even mature Christians sometimes dare not tread. Many spin their wheels and make no progress in annoyance. Just look at some of the replies you have gotten thus far for example. The world and many 'Christian' religions/denominations, even Judaism and Islam want to KEEP the Moral Law in place. They are still not unsure about it all. It is all too sacred to touch for them. Many professing Christians believe in Christ although they really somehow feel that the moral law is still around and must be preached as part of the gospel which it is NOT a part of the gospel, as it is also kept and incorporated in the justice system of man. As if one can legislate morality or judge an act of immorality in a court of law. It is a matter of the heart.

Either a Christian believes completely that Christ shed his blood that caused amongst other things superseding/making the Law and of morality obsolete or not. Many cannot come to terms with this subject and cannot let it go. How can they truly believe that Christ, with his implanted spirit within us from the Father, is now their law of love and freedom in their heart and mind?!

True spiritual righteousness in/toward God and justification by Christ's actions on the Cross => Law of love and freedom (that embeds the law of morality).

Yes, we are naked in front of our Creator once again in the Kingdom and Body of Christ, because of Christ's spirit within us, from our belief and then our saving faith in the gospel that gives spiritual/mental love and freedom by the Grace of God who chose us. Amen

 

[Ziggy]

Very astute. Now you have hit upon a point where even mature Christians sometimes dare not tread. Many spin their wheels and make no progress in annoyance. Just look at some of the replies you have gotten thus far for example. The world and many 'Christian' religions/denominations, even Judaism and Islam want to KEEP the Moral Law in place. They are still not unsure about it all. It is all too sacred to touch for them. Many professing Christians believe in Christ although they really somehow feel that the moral law is still around and must be preached as part of the gospel which it is NOT a part of the gospel, as it is also kept and incorporated in the justice system of man. As if one can legislate morality or judge an act of immorality in a court of law. It is a matter of the heart.

Either a Christian believes completely that Christ shed his blood that caused amongst other things superseding/making the Law and of morality obsolete or not. Many cannot come to terms with this subject and cannot let it go. How can they truly believe that Christ, with his implanted spirit within us from the Father, is now their law of love and freedom in their heart and mind?!

True spiritual righteousness in/toward God and justification by Christ's actions on the Cross => Law of love and freedom (that embeds the law of morality).

Yes, we are naked in front of our Creator once again in the Kingdom and Body of Christ, because of Christ's spirit within us, from our belief and then our saving faith in the gospel that gives spiritual/mental love and freedom by the Grace of God who chose us. Amen

I think people are born into moral and immoral behavior.
Chosen from the day they are in the womb as a vessel for good or bad.
And God knows each one by name.
I had a "friend" when I was very young. We used to share our barbie dolls. But she would steal my dolls clothes, and then tell her mother that I stole hers. Rather than fight about it, I would let her choose which ones she believed were hers. I wasn't attached to the dolls or the clothes. They didn't mean that much to me. But her actions and lies, I didn't understand.
Later during elementary school, she would run up behind me and punch me in the stomach laughing for no cause.
I was cautious of her, but I didn't hate her. I just didn't understand why.
One day she confronted me and wanted to fight. I said I didn't want to fight, but she insisted.
She kept pushing me and hitting me, and then I let her have it.
One punch to the face, left a bruise over her eye. I felt terrible.
She told her mother, who told my mother, and I ended up getting a light punishment for my actions, because my mother knew I was goaded into it, and I really had no choice. She wouldn't let me walk away.

I still think about those days, some 40+ years ago.
I don't know where she is now, I left that city many years ago.

Why are some people born knowing to do good, and others knowing to do bad?
She had 2 older brothers, I had 2 older brothers. None of them were saints.
I had a mother and a father. Her mother was divorced.
We both lived on the same side of the tracks, except my dad had an income and they were on welfare.
Does your financial situation determine your morals?
I've known a lot of poor people with one parent that have good hearts.
I don't know the answer...

just thinking
hugs

 

[APAK]

I think people are born into moral and immoral behavior.
Chosen from the day they are in the womb as a vessel for good or bad.
And God knows each one by name.
I had a "friend" when I was very young. We used to share our barbie dolls. But she would steal my dolls clothes, and then tell her mother that I stole hers. Rather than fight about it, I would let her choose which ones she believed were hers. I wasn't attached to the dolls or the clothes. They didn't mean that much to me. But her actions and lies, I didn't understand.
Later during elementary school, she would run up behind me and punch me in the stomach laughing for no cause.
I was cautious of her, but I didn't hate her. I just didn't understand why.
One day she confronted me and wanted to fight. I said I didn't want to fight, but she insisted.
She kept pushing me and hitting me, and then I let her have it.
One punch to the face, left a bruise over her eye. I felt terrible.
She told her mother, who told my mother, and I ended up getting a light punishment for my actions, because my mother knew I was goaded into it, and I really had no choice. She wouldn't let me walk away.

I still think about those days, some 40+ years ago.
I don't know where she is now, I left that city many years ago.

Why are some people born knowing to do good, and others knowing to do bad?
She had 2 older brothers, I had 2 older brothers. None of them were saints.
I had a mother and a father. Her mother was divorced.
We both lived on the same side of the tracks, except my dad had an income and they were on welfare.
Does your financial situation determine your morals?
I've known a lot of poor people with one parent that have good hearts.
I don't know the answer...

just thinking
hugs

Ziggy, I've seen this in my past as well, as in the example you give here. Regardless of anyone's social, MORAL and environmental disposition at birth or later in life and whether one is inclined to do good or bad, all need Christ in their hearts to be set free from the curse of sin and moral judgement, to know the true love from God. Unfortunately, most, even professing Christians, even on this site, just continue to huddle together with their same kind and see the water of life in front of them and they dare not drink of it. They are afraid of letting go in true faith...That is the real shame....they will stay lost

Bless you