The tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

[Episkopos]

VictoryinJesus: I believe your last couple of lines are a little 'off-course.' Let me explain a bit..

The ‘tree’ of knowledge (good and evil) is not evil in itself. It is a tree or spirit for use in discernment or justice (judging). It is not a spirit or power to gain knowledge per se as many folks believe.

Scripture records this spirit of God that provides the power of judging in 2 Sam 14:16-17; I Kings 3:9 and Heb 5:12-14. It is designed to be given to mature persons in God’s sight and timing - not of our own timing.

Adam was forbidden to take this power for himself as he was then too immature in spirit to know of its consequences. It’s consequences of overriding God’s guidance and discernment into his own hands ‘at that time’ proved fatal. Allowing Adam to then take the spirit of life would make him permanently separated from the will of God. He would be definitely his own god.

The power of this knowledge dangled in front of Adam revealed that he desired his own moral autonomy over the lead of his master’s morality. He took the power of judgement very carelessly and improperly as an incapable child and became ‘like’ God and the angels in this knowledge and use of this power of discernment. Gen 3:22

(Gen 3:22) Yahweh God said, Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand, and also take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever…(NEV)

Disobedience thus led to sin and then to submission to God through Christ as we know. We now as believers obtain this power of discernment and judgement as God desires us to have it, in his timing, as a precious gift.

Bless you,


APAK

The point here is that there is no good outside of what God deems as good. There is no learning to judge when it comes to life. The knowledge of good and evil comes after taking the fruit of the forbidden tree...in that you only learn what is evil...by experiencing evil. So then the evil is the loss of contact with eternal life due to the subtlety of the devil. They were tricked into losing their lives with God. The good is learned when they realize what they once had. But always we retain the choice to choose between what we think is good and evil...and the will of God. Apart from God speaking...there is no good. There is no such thing as morality. Everything becomes relative when taken away from God. It becomes..."says who?!!!

Can truth exist apart from God? No. He is truth. Neither is there any good apart from God. Only One is good.

 

[Heart2Soul]

The point here is that there is no good outside of what God deems as good. There is no learning to judge when it comes to life. The knowledge of good and evil comes after taking the fruit of the forbidden tree...in that you only learn what is evil...by experiencing evil. So then the evil is the loss of contact with eternal life due to the subtlety of the devil. They were tricked into losing their lives with God. The good is learned when they realize what they once had. But always we retain the choice to choose between what we think is good and evil...and the will of God. Apart from God speaking...there is no good. There is no such thing as morality. Everything becomes relative when taken away from God. It becomes..."says who?!!!

Can truth exist apart from God? No. He is truth. Neither is there any good apart from God. Only One is good.

You are so much better at articulating a point than I am....this is what I was trying to express when I was sharing on another thread that God created evil....or the opportunity to engage it. Some are simply born with the gift of speaking....sigh.

 

[APAK]

The point here is that there is no good outside of what God deems as good. There is no learning to judge when it comes to life. The knowledge of good and evil comes after taking the fruit of the forbidden tree...in that you only learn what is evil...by experiencing evil. So then the evil is the loss of contact with eternal life due to the subtlety of the devil. They were tricked into losing their lives with God. The good is learned when they realize what they once had. But always we retain the choice to choose between what we think is good and evil...and the will of God. Apart from God speaking...there is no good. There is no such thing as morality. Everything becomes relative when taken away from God. It becomes..."says who?!!!

Can truth exist apart from God? No. He is truth. Neither is there any good apart from God. Only One is good.

Episkopos:

Not to belabor this subject, although I do not agree with you in the main and a few of your words seem somewhat confusing.

Although your opening statement is true, this OP is not about only evil exists outside of God. It is much more.

The point as I said previously is that the knowledge or power of judgement is to be experienced as God’s will, and today in Christ – God’s morality, and yes, only ‘good.’ Therefore, there is definitely a learning curve involved in knowing and experiencing God’s judgements and his ways in spirit, and not in our own way. The saints shall become judges in the next age.

I do not understand what you mean when you say, “There is no learning to judge when it comes to life.”??

And your statement, that by having the power of judgement (of good and evil) only brings evil is false, as one in Christ. This does apply however to an unbeliever’ action of judgement as we are all born in the discernment or judgement biased toward evil. Born to experience and knowing evil is true and not to the goodness of God. When we come to Christ we learn the goodness of God and his discernment. And we continue this process throughout our walk in Christ.

Your statements: “They were tricked into losing their lives with God. The good is learned when they realize what they once had.”

A little confusing here…I believe you mean they (Adam and Eve) realized their 'new' founded morality was not God’s morality or goodness. And I must point out that they still did not 'know' the goodness of God because of their disobedience and rejection. They were in sin, unforgiven sin, at that time. As they, we now as believers that come to God more than 'realize' the ‘good.’ We 'know' or earn to 'know' via the spirit of God and not any other way and not by our carnal natural minds.

Yes, of course as you said there is no (true) morality (good decisions) apart from God (judgement).

And this is another subject: and this is one reason why I believe we cannot as believers have a so-called ‘free’ will in light of this OP, and as we walk in Christ. As believers in the flesh, we are biased to do ‘good’ and not evil. This 'walk' limits our will in the spirit.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Enoch111]

There is no such thing as morality.

Why not? Morality is a result of the work of the conscience even in those who are not saved, and God has given every human being a conscience, which also reflects His Law.

ROMANS 2
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[bbyrd009]

I think the Tree was simply a normal tree in the garden that was misused - it was not magic, nor did it teach us anything. I think it got it’s reputation as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil after A&E misused it.

The curse was dualism - after A&E ate from it humanity was cursed to run around labelling God’s good creation ‘good’ or ‘evil’ based on how it served us.

Actually the knowledge of good....came by disobedience. We aren't supposed to judge the goodness of something, as if we were qualified to judge anything, but rather rely on God.

i guess there is no other way to make gods though, what we are called to be

 

[bbyrd009]

The people couldn't endure it.

ah, why do you say this? The Hebrews were bothered by Moses' countenance?

 

[bbyrd009]

Transgression of Gods Commandment left them naked resulting in no light and an attempt to cover themselves by means of their own making.

having sex outside one's own species, breaking a natural taboo, results in hybrids with new abilities and forebrains and whatnot. Might be a diff subject tho, dunno

You can follow the dots through...clothes of skin given by God, a covering....The lamb slain and blood on the door posts in Egypt, a covering....etc etc, all typical of God's provision in Jesus.

i wish ppl would follow the dots there lol, "Here, have a skin then" leads to some conclusions about Christ that will make most Christians pretty uncomfortable i guess; especially when they are verified in other Scripture. The Son of Man must be raised up like a snake on a pole in order to draw all men to Himself will come to have a diff interpretation for a follower than it will for a believer

 

[bbyrd009]

The word for skin in Hebrew is "or" written like this... עור It is written with a silent letter at the beginning...the ayin...which means "to see"

The word for light in Hebrew is also "or" written like this... אור It is written with the other silent letter at the beginning...the aleph.

So then there is a play on words going on in the text.

God "made" for Adam and Eve clothing of "or"...meaning God had clothed them in light...until they fell away from His anointing. Then they needed a material clothing outside of God's presence....in our present world of spiritual darkness.

"ego" fits well there, seems like, as @aspen has noted. i've never searched the phrase, skin covering adam eve ego, but there it is

 

[bbyrd009]

We now as believers obtain this power of discernment and judgement as God desires us to have it, in his timing, as a precious gift.

at least unless we become twice the sons of hell, yes.

 

[bbyrd009]

You are so much better at articulating a point than I am....this is what I was trying to express when I was sharing on another thread that God created evil....or the opportunity to engage it. Some are simply born with the gift of speaking....sigh.

you were pretty clear in that other post, imo

 

[VictoryinJesus]

VictoryinJesus: I believe your last couple of lines are a little 'off-course.' Let me explain a bit..

The ‘tree’ of knowledge (good and evil) is not evil in itself. It is a tree or spirit for use in discernment or justice (judging). It is not a spirit or power to gain knowledge per se as many folks believe.

Scripture records this spirit of God that provides the power of judging in 2 Sam 14:16-17; I Kings 3:9 and Heb 5:12-14. It is designed to be given to mature persons in God’s sight and timing - not of our own timing.

Adam was forbidden to take this power for himself as he was then too immature in spirit to know of its consequences. It’s consequences of overriding God’s guidance and discernment into his own hands ‘at that time’ proved fatal. Allowing Adam to then take the spirit of life would make him permanently separated from the will of God. He would be definitely his own god.

The power of this knowledge dangled in front of Adam revealed that he desired his own moral autonomy over the lead of his master’s morality. He took the power of judgement very carelessly and improperly as an incapable child and became ‘like’ God and the angels in this knowledge and use of this power of discernment. Gen 3:22

(Gen 3:22) Yahweh God said, Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand, and also take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever…(NEV)

Disobedience thus led to sin and then to submission to God through Christ as we know. We now as believers obtain this power of discernment and judgement as God desires us to have it, in his timing, as a precious gift.

Bless you,


APAK

I do see what you are saying. You mean as Solomon judgement between the two women fighting over the child. The tree of life is mentioned all the way to The last chapter of the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Proverbs 11:30
[30] The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Proverbs 15:4
[4] A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is necer mentioned again after: Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Why do you think that is? The tree is never mentioned as being in the city or in the new creation.

The closest I could find is: Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Leading into Revelation 19:9
[9] And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 22:14
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Uisdean]

Y'All be trying way much too hard.
1. God created the tree, so it cannot be evil.
2. Everything The Snake says is a lie. Everything!!!
3. Adam & Eve knew that disobedience was evil. The Snake was offering an argument to justify disobedience.
4. The first SIN was their willingness to meditate on the word of The Snake instead of on God's Word...in fact, Eve misquoted God.
5. C. S. Lewis, in Perelandria, deals with this in a wonderful story.
6. Disobedience is Evil; Evil is Disobedience. We don't like that idea. We want our own way.
7. Adam should have chased The Snake out of the Garden. He lets Eve eat first, to see what would happen. To the greater Shame of all males.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Y'All be trying way much too hard.
1. God created the tree, so it cannot be evil.
2. Everything The Snake says is a lie. Everything!!!
3. Adam & Eve knew that disobedience was evil. The Snake was offering an argument to justify disobedience.
4. The first SIN was their willingness to meditate on the word of The Snake instead of on God's Word...in fact, Eve misquoted God.
5. C. S. Lewis, in Perelandria, deals with this in a wonderful story.
6. Disobedience is Evil; Evil is Disobedience. We don't like that idea. We want our own way.
7. Adam should have chased The Snake out of the Garden. He lets Eve eat first, to see what would happen. To the greater Shame of all males.

Yes. I've read this outline before. Countless times. What a shame the woman and the man ate of the tree and disobeyed God. If man could just turn back time and do it differently, then none of us would suffer. If I am being honest here is the problem I have with this constant fight of man to maintain a position of authority and sovereign over his own life. Consider the countless verses where the Lord said: You don't choose me, I choose you. NO man comes to God unless the Father draws him. The Father chooses so that no flesh can boast. "My sheep hear my voice".

We are in "the valley of decision right now "Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. How can it be a "decision" when it has already been written what the decision is. You do whatever you like...but from here forth I give up that man is all sovereign and that fight to maintain "choice". God reigns. God decides. God chooses. God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden because it was the Father's will for His children to go into bondage and to become the image of His Son. Christ tasted of the fruit of death in my place. He reigns as King...the decision maker. The boldest argument begins in Genesis and so the decision of every man(and woman)… who is sovereign and in control? MAN or GOD? Which position will you argue? For man to maintain his freewill or surrender to it beginning with God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. As others said here: the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was there for a decision but not just for Adam and Eve but for the rest of all mankind: does mankind reserve his right (freewill) to eat of the tree or surrender that first decision ever made of mankind to God? Mankind will most likely still argue his position and right of choice. what is the decision for Adam and Eve in the garden? Do as God commands...or to choose? The way that leads to death is man’s choice. The way that leads to life is God’s choice. We have seen both outcomes because He has clearly shown it.

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos:

Not to belabor this subject, although I do not agree with you in the main and a few of your words seem somewhat confusing.

Although your opening statement is true, this OP is not about only evil exists outside of God. It is much more.

The point as I said previously is that the knowledge or power of judgement is to be experienced as God’s will, and today in Christ – God’s morality, and yes, only ‘good.’ Therefore, there is definitely a learning curve involved in knowing and experiencing God’s judgements and his ways in spirit, and not in our own way. The saints shall become judges in the next age.

I do not understand what you mean when you say, “There is no learning to judge when it comes to life.”??

And your statement, that by having the power of judgement (of good and evil) only brings evil is false, as one in Christ. This does apply however to an unbeliever’ action of judgement as we are all born in the discernment or judgement biased toward evil. Born to experience and knowing evil is true and not to the goodness of God. When we come to Christ we learn the goodness of God and his discernment. And we continue this process throughout our walk in Christ.

Your statements: “They were tricked into losing their lives with God. The good is learned when they realize what they once had.”

A little confusing here…I believe you mean they (Adam and Eve) realized their 'new' founded morality was not God’s morality or goodness. And I must point out that they still did not 'know' the goodness of God because of their disobedience and rejection. They were in sin, unforgiven sin, at that time. As they, we now as believers that come to God more than 'realize' the ‘good.’ We 'know' or earn to 'know' via the spirit of God and not any other way and not by our carnal natural minds.

Yes, of course as you said there is no (true) morality (good decisions) apart from God (judgement).

And this is another subject: and this is one reason why I believe we cannot as believers have a so-called ‘free’ will in light of this OP, and as we walk in Christ. As believers in the flesh, we are biased to do ‘good’ and not evil. This 'walk' limits our will in the spirit.

Bless you,

APAK

We know things by comparison. Offer a dog a steak and it will let go of the bone it is chewing on. So then Adam would have known the good he had lost when his eternal sight was lost so as to become as the sight of any animal. There was a huge gap in the life he once had and what he was presently living. You don't need to judge well to know the difference between what he once had and what he was left with. So the our judgments are based on our experiential knowledge. Once we realize that God is always right...we then try to discern (not judge) what the will of God is. We may make mistakes along the way.....but that is the way of maturity...to discern His will.

Rom. 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

 

[APAK]

I do see what you are saying. You mean as Solomon judgement between the two women fighting over the child. The tree of life is mentioned all the way to The last chapter of the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Proverbs 11:30
[30] The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Proverbs 15:4
[4] A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is necer mentioned again after: Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Why do you think that is? The tree is never mentioned as being in the city or in the new creation.

The closest I could find is: Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Leading into Revelation 19:9
[9] And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Revelation 22:14
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The ‘tree’ of KoGE was in Eden as the tempting power to challenge God’s authority and will, and judgment. The couple were mean to grow into God’s will by the use of the power called the ‘tree’ of life. In the ‘new city’ this choice or ‘free independent will’ shall be gone.

No need to have this power as all will know and be in the will of God through Christ. Our so-called ‘free’ will shall be completely transformed as/ into God’s will. Judgements, decisions, discernment will be automatically understood and aligned with God’s will.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Helen]

The word for skin in Hebrew is "or" written like this... עור It is written with a silent letter at the beginning...the ayin...which means "to see"

The word for light in Hebrew is also "or" written like this... אור It is written with the other silent letter at the beginning...the aleph.

So then there is a play on words going on in the text.

God "made" for Adam and Eve clothing of "or"...meaning God had clothed them in light...until they fell away from His anointing. Then they needed a material clothing outside of God's presence....in our present world of spiritual darkness.

EXCELLENT word.
Thank you for that....

 

[bbyrd009]

He lets Eve eat first, to see what would happen.

contemplate that Eve ate first bc she is the "female" side of "one flesh," iow these are repping one person, you

 

[bbyrd009]

Why do you think that is? The tree is never mentioned as being in the city or in the new creation.

well bc those in the city do not pretend to knowledge of good and evil!

 

[bbyrd009]

1. God created the tree, so it cannot be evil.

God created evil, and it is evil

 

[bbyrd009]

What a shame the woman and the man ate of the tree and disobeyed God.

no shame at all, all in the plan, to learn good you gotta know evil, no Fall of Man,
that's all religious yack that cannot be Quoted. God did not accuse them of being naked, right?