I don't know about the number of fruits the tree had on it, but God never told Eve not to touch it. She added that.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
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That was Eve mistake. She quoted God command wrong which gave Satan an opportunity to deceive her.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Aha, a resurrected thread.
To answer your question @Cassandra, there are two OT passages that should be read side-by-side to better understand the fall of Lucifer to become Satan, whose characteristics and dereliction of duty in the Garden of Eden are associated metaphorically with the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14, and with the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28. (see below)
Isa 14:3-23 It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, (4) that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say: "How the oppressor has ceased, The golden city ceased! (5) The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of the rulers; (6) He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke, He who ruled the nations in anger, Is persecuted and no one hinders. (7) The whole earth is at rest and quiet; They break forth into singing. (8) Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you, And the cedars of Lebanon, Saying, 'Since you were cut down, No woodsman has come up against us.' (9) "Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. (10) They all shall speak and say to you: 'Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? (11) Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.' (12) "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! (13) For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; (14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.' (15) Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. (16) "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, (17) Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?' (18) "All the kings of the nations, All of them, sleep in glory, Everyone in his own house; (19) But you are cast out of your grave Like an abominable branch, Like the garment of those who are slain, Thrust through with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit, Like a corpse trodden underfoot. (20) You will not be joined with them in burial, Because you have destroyed your land And slain your people. The brood of evildoers shall never be named. (21) Prepare slaughter for his children Because of the iniquity of their fathers, Lest they rise up and possess the land, And fill the face of the world with cities." (22) "For I will rise up against them," says the LORD of hosts, "And cut off from Babylon the name and remnant, And offspring and posterity," says the LORD. (23) "I will also make it a possession for the porcupine, And marshes of muddy water; I will sweep it with the broom of destruction," says the LORD of hosts.
Eze 28:11-19 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, (12) "Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. (13) You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. (14) "You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. (15) You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. (16) "By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. (17) "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. (18) "You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. (19) All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And shall be no more forever." ' "
The woman reveals she knew the knowledge of God to neither touch or eat of the fruit.
Gen 3:
[2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
[3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
/the woman said that, yes, but nowhere does it say that God told them not to touch it.
Have no problem with the explanations for Satan's fall, and where he had been.
The fiery stones refer to Heaven IMO, and the covering cherub was him when he covered God's throne.
I still don't see the oversight failure of him in Eden.
We do not have a WORD for WORD quote:
OF Every Word God SAID to Adam,
OF Every Word God SAID to the Woman,
OF Every word Adam SAID to God,
OF Every word Adam SAID to the Woman,
OF Every Word the Woman SAID to God,
OF Every Word the Woman SAID to Adam,
OF Every Word the Serpent SAID to the Woman,
OF Every Word the Woman SAID to the Serpent.
YET, I believe we can safely presume, MANY words were spoken Between God and Adam, Adam and God, Adam and the Woman and the Woman and Adam.
Scripture reveals the Highlights. The Highlights ARE...IN the Garden...
Was God, Adam, a Woman, a Devil.
Two Spirits, Two Earthly manKIND of beings.
The Word of God was present.
The word of a Devil was present.
The word of a man was present.
The word of a woman was present.
The Lesson IS a foreshadow of the Teaching of Entire Bible of WHAT IS Present ON this Earth, WHAT to Seek and cling TO, WHAT to avoid, and WHY.
Glory to God,
Taken
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Here it is, not initially confined to Eden but I believe firstly manifesting in Eden to corrupt, deceive, and exploit the innocent occupants.
Eze 28:12-13 . . . "You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. (13) You were in Eden, the garden of God; etc . . . all angels were originally created to serve God and align with His Will.
Isa 14:13-14 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; (14) I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'
From my notes:
There is a branch of Biblical Theology known as Satanology, which simply means the study of Satan. As you may know the name Satan means "adversary" which is defined as a person, group, or force that opposes.
Firstly, God always knows everything that is knowable so He has always known the who, what, when, where, how, how many, how much, and why of His opposition. From this we can deduce that God knew opposition to Him would be inevitable. It was always a factor God was aware of.
Secondly, it is possible from Scripture to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer held a privileged position in heaven and had a close working relationship with God prior to the Creation of the Universe, but when, as Lucifer, he saw how close Adam and Eve were to God as the Lord in pleasure at their obedience and innocence walked with them in the Garden of Eden, he began to manifest pride and to contest his subservient position which he was now finding unacceptable.
Thirdly, it is possible from Scripture to perceive that the so-called "original sin" was not Adam and Eve's disobedience in eating of the forbidden fruit, but was Satan's opposing of God's Will in deceiving Eve with lies that contradicted God's instruction to them.
For further study it helps to be aware that there are 3 heavens mentioned in the Bible as follows:
- The Atmospheric Heaven, namely the sky directly above the earth's surface.
- The Celestial Heaven, namely outer space which contains the stars.
- The Divine Heaven, namely the theographical location of God and His throne.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
There is actually nowhere in Genesis that says God spoke to the woman at all. In God’s arrangement, a husband is head of his wife and Adam was the one educated by God long before Eve was created as a mate for him. So it was his responsibility to educate her, which he was apparently in the process of doing. She knew about the most important command, stressed to the point of not even touching the tree that God had claimed as his own personal property. He had generously provided every other tree with abundant fruits.....so there was no hardship created by this one prohibition....it was a small test of obedience, but with a very serious penalty for transgressing.
Because satan was a covering cherub in Eden, (a guardianship position) he was right there, all the while observing all that was going on.....he began to entertain wrong thoughts. (James 1:13-15) and he did not dismiss them, but allowed them to grow until he acted to become the first rebel in God’s family of spirit creatures. He wanted worship (to be “like God”) and plotted how to separate the humans from their Creator so that he could gain their worship for himself.
There is no statement that says that satan ever spoke to Adam directly...only that he approached the woman in disguise, when she was alone.....the younger, more inexperienced and less educated of the pair.
Adam had waited a long time for his own mate, and the devil set his trap. He approached the woman, and lied to her, so as to get her to disobey.....he did that to get to the man. But if Satan had tried that tactic on Adam instead of his wife, he would most likely have rejected the temptation.....but now satan knew that his loyalties could be divided and he hit Adam hard by making him choose between the love of his God, and the love of his life.....he chose emotionally, not logically....not obediently. He joined his wife in disobedience and the rest as they say...is history. The Bible then goes into detail about how God put in place a rescue mission there and then, to bail out their future children, trapped in the cycle of sin and death through no fault on their part.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
I stand corrected....thank you.
It is the only time that God is reported to have spoken to her regarding their disobedience....sentencing her to the pain of childbirth and the dominance of her husband.....and of course the death penalty that awaited both of them as their physical bodies broke down into ageing, sickness and eventually death.
On reflection it was kind of obvious that God would demand an explanation for their disobedience.....both the man and the woman blamed someone else for their sin. The woman blamed the serpent....the man blamed the woman and even by extension, God, because he gave her to him, thereby cementing their fate. They refused to take personal responsibility and there are no words of remorse from either of them....and no sacrifice offered in repentance.
They did not make a mistake....as perfect beings without flaws, there was no excuse for their actions, and no basis upon which to forgive their willful and deliberate sin. The savior whom God would send into the world would rescue their children, but Adam and his wife were to return to the dust....unforgivable.
It is the only time that God is reported to have spoken to her regarding their disobedience....sentencing her to the pain of childbirth and the dominance of her husband.....and of course the death penalty that awaited both of them as their physical bodies broke down into ageing, sickness and eventually death.
On reflection it was kind of obvious that God would demand an explanation for their disobedience.....both the man and the woman blamed someone else for their sin. The woman blamed the serpent....the man blamed the woman and even by extension, God, because he gave her to him, thereby cementing their fate. They refused to take personal responsibility and there are no words of remorse from either of them....and no sacrifice offered in repentance.
They did not make a mistake....as perfect beings without flaws, there was no excuse for their actions, and no basis upon which to forgive their willful and deliberate sin. The savior whom God would send into the world would rescue their children, but Adam and his wife were to return to the dust....unforgivable.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Based on what the scriptures say about sin, Adam and his wife were not born in sin like their children, and therefore had no excuse to disobey a direct command from their Creator. Their sin was not forgivable because inherited sin was not the cause.....it was willful and deliberate disobedience on their part. Both the humans and satan displayed selfish interests and instead of dismissing those wrong thoughts, as all all free willed beings have, they allowed them to be 'entertained'.....invited in for a conversation with themselves. Justification followed and we have a very important lesson in how not to receive God's blessings.
Yes ma’am.
The Order and severity of consequence is important.
Gen 3:
14] And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
[15] And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
[16] Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
[17] And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
[18] Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
[19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
For centuries, the serpent remains cursed above all animals and enmity between the woman’s offspring and the serpent.
(But we see MEN and WOMEN who embrace the serpent.)
For centuries, the woman has brought forth children from the womb in pain and wife’s subject to the husbands as Head of household.
(But we see husbands subject to Wives, Wives Head of households, and Pregnant women Choosing, scheduling to have their babes cut out of their wombs.)
For centuries, the man plowed the ground, planted, struggling to grow crops.
(But we see a Few men operating machinery, planting sterile seeds, adding poisons to the ground, adding water to the ground, and harvesting, nutrition void plants, and selling, and people buying, eating, and an explosion of sick human beings void of nutrition and minerals in their food.)
Something to ponder.
Glory to God,
Taken
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Verse 15....the Bible’s first prophesy was shrouded in mystery for centuries....no one really knew who the players were, but many assumed that the woman was Eve.....subsequent scripture showed otherwise.
The devil and his seed were plain to see, because Jesus also identified him and them (John 8:44).....but God’s curse was not to any literal snake, it was directed to the one who used that creature to deceive the woman and interfere with God’s stated purpose.
The seed of the woman was Jesus, but he is not the product of human reproduction. His origin is from heaven, not from the earth. So who is the “woman” who produced him? Not Eve. God is spoken of as his Father, so who is his mother?
His earthly mother was told that her child was God's son....a product of his holy spirit. So Mary is not the woman. This woman has existed since the rebellion in Eden.
The Bible identifies God’s woman, or the wife of Jehovah, as being a heavenly organization Scripturally called “Jerusalem above.” A witness to this fact is given to us in the inspired letter to the Hebrew Christians. Referring first to Mount Sinai in Arabia, the mountain from which the Ten Commandments of God’s law covenant with the nation of Israel were given, and which mountain was pictured by the servant girl Hagar, Hebrews 12:18-28 says, in part:
15 “You have not approached that [mountain] which can be felt and which has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a tempest, . . . But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem.”
So “heavenly Jerusalem” was pictured as God’s figurative wife.....his heavenly arrangement from which Jesus came forth.
How the lives of these humans changed....drastically and immediately, evicted to the untamed land outside the garden which they were originally told to “subdue” and “fill the earth” with their children...now however, they had to subsist on ground that was cursed, yielding little for the hard labor they had to put in to make enough to live on. God’s curse worked in reverse to his original mandate....there would be no blessing of their activities. Not the life he intended for them. As far as we know, it never got better.
We know it wasn’t the literal serpent who was cursed, and we do not know if Satan had the ability to materialize as a serpent or if he used one like a ventriloquist’s dummy, but why curse all the snakes because of what a rebellious angel did?
It is very sad to see that men and women actually embrace the snake as their god and father, just as the Pharisees did. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) Some do it knowingly...others have no idea that they are supporting the "weeds" of Jesus parable.
This is a sad fact of life today.....but down through man’s violent history, life has not been respected as the gift it was intended to be. It was to be this way (Just like the days of Noah) until Christ came to fix it all. (Matthew 24:37-39)
The woman of Genesis 3:15 is not Eve.
Yes, it’s a shame that more people do not ponder why they are victims of their own greed and selfishness. It’s the lazy man’s addiction to fast food...that they did not have to grow or gather, or prepare....it is just all done for them and the price paid is ill health. The populations of western nations are digging a grave with their teeth.
This is why I believe that the totalitarian 'one world government' that is foretold in Revelation will succeed in today‘s world more so that at any other time in history......we have lost the art of self-sufficiency....gradually, over time we have surrendered the ability to provide the necessities of life for ourselves, and handed it over to those who will ultimately use it against us. The system provides everything we need to live...our food, water, clothing, electricity, currency ect.....and it keeps us so busy earning the money to pay for these conveniences, that they can hold those things over our heads to ensure that we comply....on pain of their withdrawal. Imagine!
Our freedom is being eroded at the rate of knots.....and we are at their mercy. Even the ‘preppers’ will be at a disadvantage.....if the hungry know that they have food stores, they will kill to obtain it.
The end will indeed be a “great tribulation” for mankind. (Matthew 24:21)
Our trust must be in God.....
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
No....satan, like his minions, understands that they will pay for their rebellion....perfect beings do not make mistakes or errors in judgment like we do handicapped by sin. They make willful and deliberate choices, which have consequences just like God's law in Eden. If they breach God's commands there can be no forgiveness. They knew that before they disobeyed. Certain and permanent death awaits them.
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