The tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

[Taken]

As far as humans going to heaven.....if Adam and his wife had not succumbed to the devil’s temptations, there would never have been a need for Jesus to come into the world to save their children. So, in that case, no human would ever have gone to heaven to assist Christ in his kingdom because the purpose of the kingdom is reconciliation of faithful mankind back with their Creator. Christ’s thousand year reign meant taking a select number of humans to make up that governing arrangement. (Revelation 20:6)
So I believe that the two realms were meant to be separate but with God and his angels guiding and directing matters as his purpose in connection with material creation unfolded.
We have no idea what the future holds after that.....but we know it will be wonderful....as God intended. (Isaiah 55:11)


Since God handed rulership of this earth over to the devil, (1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-6) we have seen his stamp on all the world powers down through time. Violence, immorality and bloodshed have been a common theme in all of them. We now have more sophisticated forms of barbarism these days. The weapons of their warfare are now more heinous. Mass destruction is the aim and the variety of ways to achieve it is mind boggling.

But no weapon formed against God or his worshippers will succeed because we have God’s guarantee that if our worship is uncontaminated by false religious beliefs and practices that the devil introduced, he will protect us.


If you step back and take a long range look, you will see that God *acted* only once in his creation of the material universe....after that he only *reacted* to the actions of his free willed children. This is in accord with the meaning of his name Yahweh.....which the Jewish Tanakh renders as “I Will Be What I Will Be”.....giving a clear indication of his intentions to BE whatever he needed to BE in order for his will to be carried out.

Humans were undergoing the necessary refinement planned for this seventh day to play out as it would. God was prepared for all contingencies and did what was necessary to contain it, whilst giving us the lesson. By recording the events and his response to them, we have a written record of God’s dealings with the human race, and the also the machinations of the devil, being able to identify his activities which are very predictable. He uses no new tactics. So we are fully equipped with God’s word and his spirit to come through this time of education and refinement, wiser for the experience...unless we have been duped by the devil, using his tried and tested methods to steer us away from the truth.
God will not interfere with our free willed choices.

Fairly well on the same page.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I don't think what propelled him was jealousy over humans. I think it was pride.

Pride spawns jealousy among other things.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Inanutshell I would say Corrupt Government. Sort of like today in the US.
I am not leaving the US, but I avoid playing in their sandbox. They have nothing I want, and nothing they “offer”, do I reach out and take.

Actually “Babylon the great” is more sinister than just corrupt worldly governments.
Satan has his own trinity.....corrupt government...greedy commerce...and false religion.
In Revelation 18 we see that two of those elements lament the passing of Babylon the great because both benefitted from her support. She is pictured riding a seven headed wild beast which she believes is hers to control, but suddenly and without warning the beast turns on her and utterly destroys her.

So who is she? She is Satan’s third wheel.....his empire of false religion, created to ensnare and to dominate peoples of the world in worshipping what is not God. All worship that does not go to the Father, goes to the devil by default......imagine how much worship he has managed to obtain for himself, catering to all tastes.....idolatry dominates most of them, many involve spiritism and others are a sham, completely devoid of anything but empty ritual. Satan doesn’t care what or how you worship....as long as it’s not the true God Yahweh.

This is how God’s “people” got to be in “Babylon the great” named after Nimrod’s great city where his rebellion started. The Tower of Babel was the springboard that took false worship to every corner of the world. When the language groups scattered, they took along their false religious ideas, so that we see a common thread running through all of them......a multiplicity of gods, often in triads....and belief in an immortal soul that ends up in heavenly bliss or the eternal flames of hell.....these are the hallmarks of satanic worship. It started in original Babylon....so the “greater Babylon” will be easily identified to those who know what to look for.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Both angels and mankind have freewill.
IMO, from the beginning, with God speaking Good in Adams ear...without knowledge of opposition to Good...the choice of freewill is limited.

Agreed...God wanted only good things for his earthly children. He wanted to keep a knowledge of evil away from them because we see in the world today and down through our history, humans have difficulty discerning the difference. Evil becomes good and vice versa.....better to just do as instructed. You can’t get into trouble that way and free will then is a blessing instead of the curse it became.

Yes, “giants” in days of old. Yes, a “flood”. And Yes, I believe a reproduction of “giants” remained. Noah, wife, 3 sons, 3 daughter-in-laws. We know little of the daughter-in-laws...offspring of giant clans? IDK. In Numbers 13: 28-33, we find accounts of Israels scouts, making reports of offspring of giants, and their large stature, and causing their hesitancy to take over their land.
A flood, was the result of Gods Anger, against the majority population...
But was there a “remnant” that remained to keep that, freewill choice option relevant? Via, a daughter-in-law...? Maybe so. IDK.

There are still people in the world who are tall because it is in their genetics. Some have an abnormality that make the growth hormones fail to switch off. But the Nephilim did not survive the flood. And there is nothing to indicate that Noah’s wife or daughters-in-law were of the Nephilim because these were not the offspring of Adam but the spawn of rebellious angels who were defying God and creating their own race of violent, monstrous humans. Being hybrid, as we see with hybrid animals which are bred by men, they are sterile. There is no record of the Nephilim themselves creating offspring....only the materialised angels. There is an inbuilt mechanism that terminates any future offspring....like horses and donkeys produce mules....But makes cannot reproduce...they are sterile. This I believe happened with the Nephilim. God eliminated them because they had no right to live.

So the flood obviously gave birth to legends as we see a flood story in almost every culture on earth in some form or other. But the “giants” seen by the Israelite spies were described as Nephilim by those who wanted an excuse not to do what God had commanded. They were showing a cowardly streak and should have known that no human is a match for God’s faithful ones.....look at David and Goliath....

 

[Taken]

Actually “Babylon the great” is more sinister than just corrupt worldly governments.
Satan has his own trinity.....corrupt government...greedy commerce...and false religion.

Cunning, corrupt government, romanticizes their words to be enticing, while working their wicked deeds in the shadows.
Europa - mythical daughter - Europe - European Union - Europa symbols sculpted, on stamps, on coinage... exalted, and curiously attached to every person daily. And their sculptures on EU building grounds....
UN - the hideous sculpture on their grounds, gifted from husband and wife sculptures from Mexico.
And not to overlook the in the works. “Sky god”... coming soon to a cloud near you. Satellite with convenient in-human connection.

Few to rule and downsize to the worthy slaves.

 

[Taken]

There are still people in the world who are tall because it is in their genetics. Some have an abnormality that make the growth hormones fail to switch off. But the Nephilim did not survive the flood. And there is nothing to indicate that Noah’s wife or daughters-in-law were of the Nephilim because these were not the offspring of Adam but the spawn of rebellious angels who were defying God and creating their own race of violent, monstrous humans. Being hybrid, as we see with hybrid animals which are bred by men, they are sterile. There is no record of the Nephilim themselves creating offspring....only the materialised angels. There is an inbuilt mechanism that terminates any future offspring....like horses and donkeys produce mules....But makes cannot reproduce...they are sterile. This I believe happened with the Nephilim. God eliminated them because they had no right to live.

Sure people have genetic abnormalities. May be seen typically of one family member.... Giants were clans of great heights.

Numbers 13 (after the flood)
[28] Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
[29] The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.
[30] And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
[31] But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
[32] And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
[33] And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I do believe a literal snake. I do believe God divided the animals...clean and not clean.

Interesting that the clean and unclean animals were identified before Noah entered the ark. But this was to differentiate between clean and unclean animals for sacrifice.
There were seven of every clean animal (six for breeding and one for sacrifice) and only two of the unclean animals.

When Noah was given permission to eat flesh, there was no prohibition on any of them. (Genesis 9:3)

Man was created and made....VERY GOOD....that went by the wayside, when NOT GOOD was introduced, and enticing.
In our present flesh, men were being taught...rules, washing, cleansing, purifying, eat food declared Clean, etc. to learn, practice....the elementary methods, to become, GOOD, again....so man may Become GOOD, and...
Acceptable to God, that God would BE WITH a man and that man accounted WITH God.
* Then comes Jesus’...OFFERING Gods Spirit (Power), IN a man and Forever that man would be “WITH” God, and God “WITH” that man. Doesn’t matter, WHAT you eat, WHAT you wear, your financial station, RICH or POOR, your clout station, FAMOUS or UNKNOWN, Pretty, Ugly, Smart, Dumb....Liked by people, disliked by people; healthy or sickly....
...YOU are worthy to God, and HE will Keep you, by His Power, WITH Him...
AWESOME offer. In context, why would one refuse such an offer?
BUT many do.

Again I have a bit of a different take on that.
Christ came to give his life “a ransom in exchange for many” (Matthew 20:28) so because this ransom is to redeem the faithful, it doesn’t matter to God or his son what earthly status you hold, as long as you follow the ‘law of love’.....to love God with our whole being and to then love our neighbor as ourselves. A true Christian will be judged by their adherence to those two primary laws. They will be seen in actions rather than words.

Some see that humanitarian works are to be lauded....and no one could argue that the humanitarians of the world are a blessing to many....but what if the love of mankind (love of neighbor) is not accompanied by the first law....to love God wholeheartedly? Do good works save anyone?

James answers this question....he contrasts those who have faith with those who have works.....

“Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it? 15 If any brothers or sisters are lacking clothing and enough food for the day, 16 yet one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but you do not give them what they need for their body, of what benefit is it? 17 So, too, faith by itself, without works, is dead.

18 Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend.

24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner, was not Raʹhab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit* is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” (James 2:14-26)

We need both, and it will be evident in our lives to all who know us. One has to be motivated by the other. One without the other is useless.

Will the snake be restored? How about the pigs whereby evil spirits in men, were cast out of men into pigs? I tend to believe, since animals Can NOT Sin Against God, God has a restoration plan for animals. We’ll see someday.
(I can’t wrap my head around hugging a Komodo dragon...lol).

I see from the creation itself that God designed the animal kingdom to be perpetuated in an ongoing life cycle......only humans were promised everlasting life as they alone were made “in God’s image”.
Only humans have no ‘program’ for death. Animals, by and large, treat death as a natural part of life.
They have no burial rituals, and when death occurs, their natural instincts will sometime cause confusion, like when a baby dies and the mothers instincts are primed to be a mother, there can be confusion but we have to remember that none of our lives in this world is the way God planned it to be. We see dogs who fret over the loss of a master, but humans were not meant to die, so we were always going to outlive our companion animals.
Couples who have been together for a lifetime have an especially hard time dealing with the loss of their mate. Death is an enemy according to the scriptures and it is the “last enemy” to be conquered. (1 Cor 15:26)

We really have only a smattering what God has in store for ourselves or our beloved animals in the new world......but whatever the future brings, we know that it will be as God wills.....not as we will.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sure people have genetic abnormalities. May be seen typically of one family member.... Giants were clans of great heights.

Numbers 13 (after the flood)
[28] Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
[29] The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.
[30] And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
[31] But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
[32] And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
[33] And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

Yes, the sons of Anak....not sons of the Nephilim. God would not have kept them in existence because they had no right to exist.
The Masai in Africa are a race of very tall people...and by contrast the opposite genetics affect the pygmies. Genetics are a fascinating code that science is only now beginning to understand. How they attribute all this to random chance is beyond me.....

 

[Taken]

Yes, the sons of Anak....not sons of the Nephilim. God would not have kept them in existence because they had no right to exist.
The Masai in Africa are a race of very tall people...and by contrast the opposite genetics affect the pygmies. Genetics are a fascinating code that science is only now beginning to understand. How they attribute all this to random chance is beyond me.....

Point being Anah, was descended of giants.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil ....a good tree or an evil tree?

Since it bore GOOD fruit, it was apparently a GOOD Tree - but it was just a tree with no "Magic" intrinsic in it or its fruit.

The tree grew fruit because Adam and Eve ate of it. Was the fruit from the tree...evil fruit or good fruit?

Apparently it was GOOD FRUIT - maybe VERY GOOD.

There was no problem at all with the tree!! The problem was that God told them NOT to eat of it. It's human nature, however, that when a LAW is proclaimed, our human nature wants to BREAK IT. You can see James 1 in the Garden account - the tree's fruit was desirable, and satan was there to "entice", so A&E allowed their lust to "Conceive", and result in SINFUL ACTIONS - which brought into being the NEED for a Savior - Who was already in the PLAN from before there was a creation.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Point being Anah, was descended of giants.

Like all genetic traits, there has to be a mutation that is passed down....the “sons of Anak” were noted for their extraordinary height. It doesn’t mean that they descended from the Nephilim, who had no record of having fathered children. Hybrids don’t reproduce.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Apparently it was GOOD FRUIT - maybe VERY GOOD.

There was no problem at all with the tree. the problem was that God told them NOT to eat of it. It's human nature, however, that when a LAW is proclaimed, our human nature wants to BREAK IT. You can see James 1 in the Garden account - the tree's fruit was desirable, and satan was there to "entice", so A&E allowed their lust to "Conceive", and result in SINFUL ACTIONS - which brought into being the NEED for a Savior

Agreed.....and well stated.

Who was already in the PLAN from before there was a creation.

But the Savior was not in “the PLAN” because there was no plan until the humans took the actions that they did. Free will would dictate how God responded to their choices.

How else could the scenario in Eden have taken place? God had a contingency for any outcome of their free willed choices. There was never just one PLAN.

What would have happened for example...if
1) Satan had not chosen to rebel and to tempt the woman into disobedience?
2) The woman repeated God’s prohibition, and then told the snake to get lost?
3) The man on seeing what his wife had done, chastised her and lamented the fact that she has brought the death penalty on herself and refused to join her out of obedience to God?
4) The woman being deceived ate the fruit, but the man who was not deceived, ate the fruit for a completely different reason?

We all know which scenario played out and how God immediately put into play his solution in Genesis 3:15....
When God uses the expression “from the founding of the world” he doesn’t mean from the creation of the planet....he means from “the creation of the kosmos” which is the world of mankind descended from Adam.
So God’s response was geared to whatever the humans chose to do. Of course they picked the worst one.

 

[Taken]

Like all genetic traits, there has to be a mutation that is passed down....the “sons of Anak” were noted for their extraordinary height. It doesn’t mean that they descended from the Nephilim, who had no record of having fathered children. Hybrids don’t reproduce.

Not going to debate. Scripture itself gives notice of Anah descending from giants. You can study that, believe it, or not.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

But the Savior was not in “the PLAN” because there was no plan until the humans took the actions that they did.

Disagree. God knew EXACTLY what was going to happen from the very beginning. Nothing that happened was a "surprise", and God doesn't "React" to us, and in all things God moves first.

Simple as that.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Disagree. God knew EXACTLY what was going to happen from the very beginning. Nothing that happened was a "surprise", and God doesn't "React" to us, and in all things God moves first.

Simple as that.

Then free will is a sham. God can know whatever he wants to know, but giving his children free will means that he leaves their decisions up to them. What was the point of the TKGE if they had no choice?

If you were a locksmith and you could unlock every lock in the world....would you have to unlock every lock, just because you could? God doesn’t have to know what he chooses not to either. His response to his children’s actions is what we see in the scriptures. They acted against his instructions and he reacted by punishing them. When they obeyed, he blessed them.
Can we see the lessons?

 

[Stumpmaster]

Disagree. God knew EXACTLY what was going to happen from the very beginning. Nothing that happened was a "surprise", and God doesn't "React" to us, and in all things God moves first.

Simple as that.

Yes, well said @Bob Carabbio. It is as simple as that.

My signature says:
"All that is knowable is always known by God"
and the follow on from that is
"If He doesn't always know all that is knowable then he isn't God."

Eph 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (4) just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, (5) having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, (6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Act 15:18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works.

Isa 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, (10) Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'​

 

[Stumpmaster]

What was the point of the TKGE if they had no choice?

Divine Foreknowledge of Adam and Eve's disobedience did not cause it, just the same as Divine Foreknowledge of every detail of everyone's existence doesn't predetermine their every thought, word, and deed.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Then free will is a sham.

Don't be silly. WE have Free will, and the FACT that Go KNOWS what out free will decisions WILL BE, DOESN'T ALTER THE FACT THAT WE STILL MADE 'EM FREELY. YES, God applies INFLUENCE, And Nobody's coming to Christ UNLESS THEY'RE DRAWN (John 6:44). But the decision to SUrrender, and REPENT in FAITH is still ours to make of our own free will. Calvinism claims that some people are never "Drawn" ("L") - i.e. they're nothing but firewood and they never were given a choice. Paul, on the other made himself ALL THINGS to ALL MEN that he might win some.

SO Atonement IS "limited" but not necessarily in a Calvinistic fashion, which won't ALLOW a person who is "DRAWN" to say "NO".

 

[Aunty Jane]

Not going to debate. Scripture itself gives notice of Anah descending from giants. You can study that, believe it, or not.

I have studied it......and there is no mention of the Nephilim surviving the flood because every breathing thing outside of that ark of salvation, perished. (Genesis 7:22-23)

As the Israelites were about to cross the Jordan River and into their Promised Land, God said through Moses.........
"Hear, O Israel, today you are crossing the Jordan to go in and dispossess nations greater and mightier than you, cities great and fortified to the heavens, 2 a people great and tall, the sons of the Anʹa·kim, about whom you know and have heard it said, ‘Who can stand up to the sons of Aʹnak?’ 3 Therefore, you should know this day that Jehovah your God will cross ahead of you. He is a consuming fire, and he will annihilate them. He will subdue them before your eyes so that you may quickly drive them out and destroy them, just as Jehovah has promised you."
Did God mention the Nephilim? No he did not....it was the feeble, faithless spies who said..."And there we saw the Nephʹi·lim, the sons of Aʹnak, who are from the Nephʹi·lim, and in comparison we seemed like grasshoppers, both to us and to them.”
There were no Nephilim left on the earth after the flood. Noah's daughters-in-law were not descended from the Nephilim because there is no record of them ever reproducing.....they were sterile hybrids....part human and part angel.

That's the simple truth and you can believe that...or not.

 

[Taken]

I have studied it......and there is no mention of the Nephilim surviving the flood because every breathing thing outside of that ark of salvation, perished. (Genesis 7:22-23)

The fact is word Nephilim does not appear in my English Bible. I neither speak or read in the Hebrews language of 4-5 centuries ago.

Nephilim (/ˈnɛfɪˌlɪm/; Hebrew: נְפִילִים Nəfīlīm) meaning LARGE and STRONG humans.

In my English Bible, Nephilim is transliterated as a GIANT, meaning LARGE and STRONG humans.

My English Bible speaking of Giants, describes the Giants as Large and Strong.

I am comfortable with the transliteration.

Already gave you the express Scripture, that places ANAK descended from Giants, which in Hebrew is called Nephilim.

As the Israelites were about to cross the Jordan River and into their Promised Land, God said through Moses.........
"Hear, O Israel, today you are crossing the Jordan to go in and dispossess nations greater and mightier than you, cities great and fortified to the heavens, 2 a people great and tall, the sons of the Anʹa·kim, about whom you know and have heard it said, ‘Who can stand up to the sons of Aʹnak?’ 3 Therefore, you should know this day that Jehovah your God will cross ahead of you. He is a consuming fire, and he will annihilate them. He will subdue them before your eyes so that you may quickly drive them out and destroy them, just as Jehovah has promised you."
Did God mention the Nephilim? No he did not....it was the feeble, faithless spies who said..."And there we saw the Nephʹi·lim, the sons of Aʹnak, who are from the Nephʹi·lim, and in comparison we seemed like grasshoppers, both to us and to them.”

There were no Nephilim left on the earth after the flood. Noah's daughters-in-law were not descended from the Nephilim because there is no record of them ever reproducing.....they were sterile hybrids....part human and part angel.

That's the simple truth and you can believe that...or not.

Well, I do not believe your claim. You have proved yourself in error.
You have Confused “Noah and Moses”.

The Flood occurred in Noah’s day. The Flood had been over for hundreds of years in Moses Day.