Praise the Lord setfree....let's look at your post....QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 11 2009, 09:24 PM)
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The Bible specifically describes people being tormented in the Lake of Fire for ever and ever: "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.
They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)
The key point here is the word "They". We have to define that term. The term "they" is a plural pronoun indicative of the individuals specifically named in a prior sentence or clause. Who is the "they"? The prior clause clearly states it is the "devil, who deceived them", and the, "beast and the false prophet". These are said to burn in the lake of fire (not capitalized in the text because it is a descriptive term not an actual title (we attribute that title theologically, but that's because we're prone to doing such things). So all this verse states is that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet burn forever. This says nothing about mankind. QUOTE
"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,
he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:9-11)
Here we see that the "smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever", this is describing a towering pillar of smoke that appears to rise out of sight, continuing on "for ever and ever". Not smoke ascending "forever and forever". Basic English here folks. The verse then specifies that those in the lake of fire have "no rest day or night"...but it doesn't specify how long they are there. All we can conclude is that they will not experience rest day or night for however long they are there, rather it be temporarily (as I propose) or forever (as you propose). QUOTE
These two passages describe the "beast" (the Antichrist), the "false prophet," and all those who receive the "mark of the beast" being tormented day and night for ever and ever in the lake of burning sulfur. Therefore, the Bible specifically describes sinners being tormented for eternity in hell, which provides Scriptural precedent for the view that all sinners will suffer eternal conscious agony in the Lake of Fire.
You're committing a big leap of logic here. Let's assume you're right and those named in these verses do indeed burn forever. The only ones specified are the devil, the beast, the false prophet, and those who received the mark of the beast. The vast majority of sinners aren't even mentioned here, for everyone lost thus far in human history haven't received the "mark of the beast". You're imposing the idea that this is therefore representative of all sinners. When the text is pretty clear as to who it is addressing. QUOTE
For example, in Revelation 14:9-11 and Revelation 20:10 (above), the apostle John shows us that the Lake of Fire is the place where certain sinners will be tormented forever, and then just five verses later he tells us that all sinners will be cast into that same Lake of Fire: "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:15) Since the Lake of Fire is the place where the beast, the false prophet, etc., will be tormented forever, and since all sinners will be thrown into the same lake of burning sulfur, the most natural and reasonable conclusion is that all sinners will suffer conscious agony in hell for all eternity.
Not necessarily. The text then goes on to tell us....
Revelation 22 1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
It is clear that those who enter the New Jerusalem are glorified and saved. Those who are not in the book of life are condemned to the lake of fire. However, Paul states,
I Corinthians 15:22-2622For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Paul states that just as in Adam
ALL men die (both spiritually and physically), even so in Christ shall
ALL men be made alive.
ALL means
ALL unless you want to call Paul a liar. All men shall find their life (both physically and spiritually) in Christ Jesus. That being said we return to the text in Revelation 22. We've seen that you are correct, those who are not in the book of life are condemned to endure the lake of fire. However, we soon see that there is a tree that is designed to facilitate "healing of the nations". Those who entered the New Jerusalem don't need healing...they were resurrected, glorified, blood bought, forgiven, set free, SAVED. Who's in need of healing? The text clearly implies that it is those who were condemned to endure the lake of fire. Every man "in his own order" shall be released as God sees proper when they have paid for their sins and shown absolute submission to God's authority....
Philippians 2:10-1110That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Then it can be said that all that the prophets foretold concerning mankind's reconciliation with God had been accomplished....
Acts 3:21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
The truth is that you're reading as far as the sinner's condemnation...but you're not continuing on to accepting the ultimate promise of God that the Gospel will be victorious unto all men in the very end. I asked this before...do you have loved ones who died not knowing Jesus Christ? This is an important question because it brings the issue home, into reality, and away from being an abstract theological concept. It's easy to say, "Sinners shall burn forever." It's much harder to say, "My grandmother will burn forever." Why would God burn your grandmother forever??? Surely, if she died not knowing Christ, she must be purified and punished for wrongs done...but what could possibly warrant God burning her forever???Let the Holy Ghost speak to your heart and reveal something far greater than anything religion is claiming. You see....the truth is that the Gospel will be victorious for all men. In the end ALL will be reconciled to God and Satan will have won
NOTHING. QUOTE (setfree @ Mar 11 2009, 09:42 PM) [url="index.php?act=findpost&pid=70623][/url]
Several Old Testament passages describe the eternal fire of hell in a way which clearly demonstrates the Jewish view that hell is a place of everlasting burning, not a place of annihilation: "The mighty man will become tinder and his work a spark; both will burn together, with no one to quench the fire." (Isaiah 1:31) "The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: "Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"" (Isaiah 33:14) "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (Isaiah 66:24) The first two passages above describe sinners burning in unquenchable fire. The imagery here is of eternal torment in fire, not total annihilation. The third passage says that a sinner's "worm" will not die, nor will his fire be quenched. This passage is quoted by Jesus in the New Testament: "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ... And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'" (Mark 9:43-48) The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.147) explains this passage by saying that the Greek word geena ("Gehenna," often translated into English as "hell") refers to a site near Jerusalem that "became Jerusalem's refuse dump where fires burned continually to consume regular deposits of worm-infested garbage. In Jewish thought the imagery of fire and worms vividly portrayed the place of future eternal punishment for the wicked. ... The worm (internal torment) and the unquenchable fire (external torment) ... vividly portray the unending, conscious punishment that awaits all who refuse God's salvation. The essence of hell is unending torment and eternal exclusion from His presence." The reason the worm does not die and the fire does not go out is because sinners are never annihilated. They continue to exist forever, and therefore the worm has "food" to eat forever and the fire has fuel to consume forever.
You really should look into how the Jews understand these passages in the original Hebrew. Judaism doesn't teach an eternal Hell as you describe it. Early Christians understood it much the way Jews do today. So let's look at a verse of Scripture and I'll ask a YES or NO question... Let's look at Jude 7....
Jude 7 7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
To understand the concept of what "eternal" meant I have to ask.... Are the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha still burning today in the Middle East? Yes or no? This will define how the term "eternal" can speak of the nature of a thing and not the duration. QUOTE
In the following passage, Jesus makes a direct comparison between the eternal nature of life (for Christians) and the eternal nature of punishment (for sinners): "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal (aionios) fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ... Then they will go away to eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (aionios) life." (Matthew 25:41,46) Notice that in each case, the word "eternal" is translated from the same Greek word aionios. The fire is "eternal" (aionios), the punishment is "eternal" (aionios), and the life is "eternal" (aionios). The implication is that a Christian's life will go on forever, the fires of hell will go on forever, and a sinner's punishment will go on forever.
Ahhhhh....but you're neglecting something. The term "aionios" here is an adjective describing the "punishment" mentioned in verse 46. The nature of that punishment will determine how we are to interpret "aionios". The Greek word for punishment here is "kolasis" The term "kolasis" doesn't speak of torment, torture, or retribution. Barclay put it this way...
"Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life. The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. I think it is true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment. The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give."-William Barclay, 1907-1978, Christian Theologian and author
So if the punishment is indeed a "kolasis" it is a remedial punishment the aionios must be understood as relating to the nature of that remedial punishment, not it's duration. Else why would Christ use this word to describe it when others would be far more suitable if never ending torments were in view? For example, my father whipped me with a belt when I was younger for cursing him to his face. I have never forgotten that punishment (kolasis) and it has left an eternal correction upon me. I'll never curse him again. So my father's punishment was an "eternal punishment", however, my father will not beat me forever. QUOTE (savedbygrace57 @ Mar 11 2009, 11:49 PM)
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Whenever everlasting is used, its application has a spiritual meaning and not physical and temporal, everlasting means what it says..everlasting.. with your reasoning, then no one can be sure what everlasting life really means..its the same word..
The term "aionios" is an adjective used to describe a thing. Context must determine how we are to interpret this word, it cannot stand alone. For example the hills of Judea are referred to as the "everlasting hills". Does this mean that after the earth and all that is therein is burned up these hills will be floating unharmed in outer space? LOLOLOLOL Surely you jest! No, in this context it simply means that the author doesn't know how long the hills will endure, therefore they are "aionios" in the sense of "age enduring" not existing "forever". With Christ's own words in Matthew 25:46 we see that the punishment upon the wicked is described by the use of the word "kolasis" whose roots and usage in other Greek literature means "pruning" so that something can grow right. Therefore "aionios" as to be interpreted with this fact in view. The "pruning" is "eternal" in that it "eternally" sets straight the soul...the punishment
purifies the wicked. I wish y'all realized how dangerous some of you are with a dictionary while ignoring proper laws of hermeneutics. Do any of you have a loved one who died without knowing Christ?