The truth about Russia and Georgia

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Wakka

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Washington - Following a series of provocative attacks in its secessionist region of South Ossetia late last week, Georgia launched an all-out attempt to reestablish control in the tiny enclave. Russia then intervened by dropping bombs on Georgia to protect the South Ossetians, halt the growing tide of refugees flooding into southern Russia, and aid its own peacekeepers there. Now, the story goes, Russia has at last found a way of undermining Georgia's Western aspirations, nipping the country's budding democracy, and countering American influence across Eurasia. But this view of events is simplistic. American and European diplomats, who have rushed to the region to try to stop the conflict, would do well to consider the broader effects of this latest round of Caucasus bloodletting – and to seek perspectives on the conflict beyond the story of embattled democracy and cynical comparisons with the Prague Spring of 1968. Russia illegally attacked Georgia and imperiled a small and feeble neighbor. But by dispatching his own ill-prepared military to resolve a secessionist dispute by force, Georgian President c has managed to lead his country down the path of a disastrous and ultimately self-defeating war. Speaking on CNN, Mr. Saakashvili compared Russia's intervention in Georgia to the Soviet invasions of Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1968, and Afghanistan in 1979. Russia has massively overreacted to the situation in Georgia. It has hit targets across Georgia, well beyond South Ossetia, and has killed both Georgian military personnel as well as civilians. The international community is right to condemn this illegal attack on an independent country and United Nations member. But this is not a repeat of the Soviet Union's aggressive behavior of the last century. So far at least, Russia's aims have been clear: to oust Georgian forces from the territory of South Ossetia, one of two secessionist enclaves in Georgia, and to chasten a Saakashvili government that Russia perceives as hot-headed and unpredictable. Regardless of the conflict's origins, the West must continue to act diplomatically to push Georgia and Russia back to the pre-attacks status quo. The United States should make it clear that Saakashvili has seriously miscalculated the meaning of his partnership with Washington, and that Georgia and Russia must step back before they do irreparable damage to their relations with the US, NATO, and the European Union. The attack on South Ossetia, along with Russia's inexcusable reaction, have pushed both sides down the road toward all-out war – a war that could ignite a host of other territorial and ethnic disputes in the Caucasus as a whole. The emerging narrative, echoing across editorial pages and on television news programs in the US, portrays Georgia as an embattled, pro-Western country struggling to secure its borders against a belligerent Russia. Since coming to power in a bloodless revolution in late 2003, Saakashvili has certainly steered a clear course toward the West. The EU flag now flies alongside the Georgian one on major government buildings (even though Georgia is a long way from ever becoming a member of the EU). The Saakashvili government seeks Georgian membership in NATO, an aspiration strongly supported by the administration of George W. Bush. Oddly, before the conflict erupted on its own soil Georgia was the third-largest troop contributor in Iraq, a result of Saakashvili's desire to show absolute commitment to the US and, in the process, gain needed military training and equipment for the small Georgian Army. Russia must be condemned for its unsanctioned intervention. But the war began as an ill-considered move by Georgia to retake South Ossetia by force. Saakashvili's larger goal was to lead his country into war as a form of calculated self-sacrifice, hoping that Russia's predictable overreaction would convince the West of exactly the narrative that many commentators have now taken up. But regardless of its origins, the upsurge in violence has illustrated the volatile and sometimes deadly politics of the Caucasus, the Texas-size swath of mountains, hills, and plains separating the Black Sea from the Caspian. Like the Balkans in the 1990s, the central problems of this region are about the dark politics of ethnic revival and territorial struggle. The region is home to scores of brewing border disputes and dreams of nationalist homelands. In addition to South Ossetia, the region of Abkhazia has also maintained de facto independence for more than a decade. Located along Georgia's Black Sea coast, Abkhazia has called up volunteers to support the South Ossetian cause. Russia has now moved to aid the Abkhazians, who are concerned that Georgia's actions in South Ossetia were a dress rehearsal for an attack on them. Farther afield, other secessionist entities and recognized governments in neighboring countries – from Nagorno-Karabakh to Chechnya – are eyeing the situation. The outcome of the Russo-Georgian struggle will determine whether these other disputes move toward peace or once again produce the barbaric warfare and streams of refugees that defined the Caucasus more than a decade ago. For Georgia, this war has been a disastrous miscalculation. South Ossetia and Abkhazia are now completely lost. It is almost impossible to imagine a scenario under which these places – home to perhaps 200,000 people – would ever consent to coming back into a Georgian state they perceive as an aggressor. Armed volunteers have already been flooding into South Ossetia from other parts of the Caucasus to fight against Georgian forces and help finally "liberate" the Ossetians from the Georgian yoke. Despite welcome efforts to end the fighting, the Russo-Georgian war has created yet another generation of young men in the Caucasus whose worldviews are defined by violence, revenge, and nationalist zeal.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0811/p09s03-coop.htmlIt's almost hard to find unbiased news these days.Here is what happened:1. Russia had peace keapers in South Ottesia (etc.)2. Most of the people in South Ottessia had Russian passports3. In an attempt to get pro western support, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili picked on SO knowing Russia would over react.4. Saakashvili was the one who attacked South Ottesia, not Russia.I'm posting this because I want the truth to be known. Russia was trying to ensure the security of their forces, their citizens, and their peace keepers.Here are some videos of western news media blocking the truth.12 year old interviewed with her mother on Fox News.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQMan's question to Rice cut off.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtdVS8646GI
 

crooner

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Good Job! WE need the truth. I hope our government isnt trying to hide this crap. Write congress and president to find out the truth.
 

Christina

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It doesn't change anything imagine Texas and Calif wanted to Join Mexico and there were peace keepers there and one side finally fires on the other side Who's right only depends on the side you are on. So because the tense situation finally explodes Does Mexico have the right to invade our country and bomb and burn our houses and destroy our infrastructure kill innocent People, because of our governments actions????Would We have the right to go into Mexico and do the same to its innocent peoples?? No matter what side you are on like it or not Ossetia is a providence and part of Georgia properAnd Russia has gone to far. They went way past correcting a wrong. They used/exploited a bad situation for their own desires. Why did they do this? Not because they care about the people, No, because they want all the free nations in the area to be back under Russian control. The old USSR, the same reason they are now threatening Poland and Ukraine even hinting at Nuclear attacksNo one is being threatned here they just dont want these countries to be free to make their own decisions. Its why all Europe join in the condemnation of Russian actions, All know it is not about saving the people of Ossetia, or just doing that would have been enough. The proof is in the actions a cease fire was signed and Russia afterward bombed the only railroad that could bring aid to the people some 140,000 that have fled with their families to safety. They then burned a natural forest to destroy the springs the people use for drinking water. These are not the actions of a heroic nation but a nation with a self serving agenda.Why dose it matter because God says it matters he says Rosh(Russia) has an evil thought An evil plan. And God will put a hook in their mouth is Georgia or the US actions the hook? (Eze 38)We do not know but God controls the nations. We are to be watching the word for the signs Russia the Bear Nation will rise up take 3 nations (ribs) and bring a mighty army into unwalled villages, God calls this an Evil thought/planLet us not get to wound up in who is right or wrong in the details of men's thoughts, God is in control and he tells us who will commit the Evil deeds we are to be the watchmen.
 

HammerStone

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So they invade a foreign sovereign nation themselves and hold territory well into set nation and begin killing/moving populations. Yep, that sounds like what a true hero nation wants to do!You guys are getting the wool pulled over your eyes. Edom is on the rise, and this is just the beginning culminating with Ezekiel 38.
 

Wakka

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So they invade a foreign sovereign nation themselves and hold territory well into set nation and begin killing/moving populations. Yep, that sounds like what a true hero nation wants to do!You guys are getting the wool pulled over your eyes. Edom is on the rise, and this is just the beginning culminating with Ezekiel 38.
Georgia had attacked South Ottessia. SO had let Russia in.Oh, and you don't think that the United States will turn against Israel?
 

Christina

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Back-door US-Russian contacts to de-escalate war of words - after Moscow threatens to nuke PolandDEBKAfile Special Report and AnalysisAugust 16, 2008, 5:34 PM (GMT+02:00) Russia's Dep. Chief of Staff Anatoly Nogovitsyn raises the tone of threatsDEBKAfile reports that both powers have begun acting to cool the rhetoric and review relations, after spokesmen in Washington - and especially Moscow - raised the threat level of their oratory to its highest pitch since the Cold War’s end.Friday night, Aug. 15, Russia’s deputy chief of staff Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn warned Poland it was “exposing itself to a strike 100 percent.” He said any new US assets in Europe could come under Russian nuclear attack. Russian forces would target “the allies of countries having nuclear weapons” to destroy them “as a first priority,” said Gen. Nogovitsyn. At the Black Sea resort of Sochi, Russian president Dimitry Medvedev dismissed the claim that the US missile interceptors in Poland were a deterrent against rogue states like Iran as “a fairy tale,” insisting they were aimed against Russia. Warsaw, which will receive 10 batteries in return for American aid to boost its air defenses, later invited Russia to visit the site and see for itself.President George W. Bush said "The Cold War is over… Bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century." He said Russia’s invasion of Georgia had damaged its credibility and the US stands with the people of Georgia and called for the withdrawal of “invading forces from all Georgian territory.” Russian and Georgian presidents have both signed the ceasefire brokered by France. But Russian troops and tanks and marauding irregulars in the areas under their control had still not left Georgia by Saturday Saturday. Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said extra security arrangements needed to be put in place before a withdrawal could begin, in defiance of US demand that Russian troops leave immediately.After meeting German chancellor Angela Merkel, Medvedev said he could not see South Ossetia and Abkhazia living with Georgia in one state.” US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice persuaded Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili to sign on the dotted line Friday night. DEBKAfile’s political sources report that, as in most cases when international tensions and violence reach dangerous levels, the big powers have instituted secret diplomacy to cool the situation before it gets out of hand in order to formulate new modes of conduct and relations.This process began with Rice’s visit to France and Tbilsi. In five hours of arm-twisting, she persuaded Saakashvili to accept clarifications to the ceasefire accord which contradict Washington’s spirited assurances for Georgia’s “territorial integrity.”Russian troops allowed to remain in Georgia would be “very limited to a light patrolling ability, such as a few kilometers outside of South Ossetia, not the right to maintain a presence inside Georgia.” Furthermore, “Russian peacekeepers” would be allowed to “implement additional security measures” until international security can be put in place.This clause authorizes on behalf of the US and Europe the narrow security strips, which DEBKAfile’s military sources revealed two days ago the Russians are establishing 300-500 meters deep outside the South Ossetian and Abkhazian borders with Georgia. This American concession was designed as initial impetus for quiet diplomacy with Russia on a settlement in Georgia.The other concession, which will unfold in time, is the removal of the Georgian president, another of Moscow’s conditions for ending the crisis. It is hard to see Saakasvhili surviving the outcry at home when the extent of his military and diplomatic failures is revealed to his people. Furthermore, his highly charged speech Friday was watched with pursed lips by Condoleezza Rice and clearly embarrassed his sponsors in Washington. While Bush declared the Cold War is over, Saakashvili heaped verbal coals on the standoff with Russia to keep it ablaze.
 

HammerStone

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Georgia had attacked South Ottessia. SO had let Russia in.
If you truly think Russia gives a care about South Ossetia, then they've already done their job and won a PR victory.
Oh, and you don't think that the United States will turn against Israel?
Stay on discussion, please. Making this inference from what I said makes no sense.The problem here is exactly what God has warned us about. II Timothy 3. Evil gets turned on its head this more so much so that people begin to see evil as good. This happens on the local level and is now beginning to filter to the international. These days its always about "perspectives" but the perspective of evil is always evil and will be evil.Russia as a nation has been nothing for the past two decades and they cannot stand it. Wakka, I know your feelings about Bush from what you've posted on this forum; but Putin has gone far above and beyond anything Bush has done to keep himself in power.
 

Wakka

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If you truly think Russia gives a care about South Ossetia, then they've already done their job and won a PR victory.
Yes, there are Russian citizens, ethnic Russians, and peace keepers in SO.Also, watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgSvYtjzZt8Those are Georgians praising Russia.
 

Wakka

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Written by a Denmark newsgroup. Denmark is known for it's unbiased news.Russia, Georgia, and the Western Alliance From the desk of Joshua Trevino on Sun, 2008-08-10 08:50 The Russian war aim in Georgia, inasmuch as it may be discerned after a bare 48 hours of full combat, appears to be what I said it likely is: “the Russians [will] fully occupy South Ossetia, along with the other secessionist region of Georgia, Abkhazia; declare them both independent or somehow annexed; and thoroughly punish the Georgians with a countrywide air campaign targeting what meager infrastructure there is.” As if to swiftly confirm the hypothesis, we see today that the Abkhazians have joined the war, thus opening a second front against the Georgians. Quite nearly everything that can go wrong for the Caucasian republic has: Georgian forces have been fully ejected from South Ossetia; Russian troops are landing on the Abkhaz coast (it’s unclear whether at Sukhumi or Ochamchira); Russian air power is hitting strategic targets throughout Georgia; and at this writing — just after dawn in the Caucasus — a general Russian offensive may be underway. Mikheil Saakashvili’s government may have declared war and sued for peace in the space of a day, but events are in motion that render its wishes, contradictory as they are, wholly irrelevant. Georgia’s American-trained armed forces may make it a fight, but there are only two things that will save the little republic now: it’s enemies’ forbearance, or America (and by extention, NATO) itself. It’s the latter that Saakashvili and the Georgians are appealing to now: the latter march in the Tbilisi streets to demand Western intervention; and the Georgian president somewhat histrionically declares, “If the whole world does not stop Russia today, then Russian tanks will be able to reach any other European capital.” Herein lies the tragedy of this war, not just for Georgia, but for the United States and the West in general. Help for Georgia is not on the way, and it will not be. The NATO countries are bound to inaction by their existing commitments and the logic of their own actions — in Serbia. The Russian assault upon Georgia is justified — inasmuch as it is justifiable — on the same grounds as the 1999 NATO assault upon Serbia. A national minority desired secession, pursued that end with violent means, and called in a foreign protector when its struggle went bad. That foreign protector had its own agenda, of course: naivete, ignorance and self-regard fueled the Western intervention in Kosovo; and Machiavellian revisionism fuels the Russian intervention in Georgia. It must be remembered that the former led directly to the latter. In this space several months back, I warned that Kosovar independence would provide “a pretext for Russian action against American allies,” specifically in the Caucasus. And so it did, with Vladimir Putin retaliating for Kosovar independence by setting in motion the events that led to the present war. The Clinton Administration architects of the original Kosovo policy in 1999, and the Bush Administration architects who acquiesced to its logical end in 2008, bear a heavy responsibility for the blood shed in Georgia now. Still, the ultimate responsibility is Russia’s, which is now a plainly and violently revisionist power. No amount of Western naivete, ignorance and self-regard, nor Georgian blundering, could create this war without Russia’s will to strife. That will springs from multiple causes, some rooted in the nature of autocracy, and some rooted in the nature of the Russian national character; and it is directed toward the overturning of what is, for Russia, the central strategic outcome of the Cold War’s end. The late Alexander Solzhenitsyn, quoted in Wayne Allensworth’s The Russian Question, expresses the Russian sense of that outcome clearly:
The trouble is not that the USSR broke up — that was inevitable. The real trouble, and a tangle for a long time to come, is that the breakup occurred mechanically along false Leninist borders, usurping from us entire Russian provinces. In several days, we lost 25 million ethnic Russians — 18 percent of our entire nation — and the government could not scrape up the courage even to take note of this dreadful event, a colossal historic defeat for Russia, and to declare its political disagreement with it.
Here, then, the source of the popular resonance of Moscow’s claims that it attacks Georgia to protect its own, with the concurrent [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/09/russia.georgia1]surge of Cossack and faux-Cossack volunteers[/url] into Ossetia. As Russian revisionism’s armed expression slowly crushes Georgia, the states with the most historical reason to fear Russia look on with mounting alarm. This extraordinary communique from the Presidents of Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, prompted by the Georgian war, denounces Russia’s “imperialist and revisionist policy in the East of Europe” with startlingly undiplomatic language. These nations are members of NATO and the European Union, and they look to their putative allies now to provide them with the protection and assurance that they expect. Thus we see the war in the Caucasus evolve into a litmus test for the basic institutions of the West itself. If those institutions fail, especially in the eyes of its most vulnerable members, then the suffering in Georgia will, in the long run, be mere prelude. [url="http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3453]http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3453[/url]
 

Christina

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Wakka get a grip
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I realize with your Russian heritage your emotions are involved hereeven if we agree that Russia was justified in its actions. It changes nothing of Gods Word.He says prophesize against Rosh(Russia)The Russian Government is not of God they sell nuclear components to Iran, the sell weapons to Syria, They will bring an Army to Israel if you draw a line from Jerusalem to Moscow it goes straight through Georgia. Do you see Gods hand at work hereI understand this is not about most of the people of Russia its about the governments Many christians will be in your postion of their nataive countries joining with Antichrist or falling under Gods displeasure,The facts are what they are Remember You are a christian fisrt and foremost. You follow Gods Word above that of men even if its your heritage.
 

Jordan

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Wakka get a grip
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I realize with your Russian heritage your emotions are involved hereeven if we agree that Russia was justified in its actions. It changes nothing of Gods Word.He says prophesize against Rosh(Russia)The Russian Government is not of God they sell nuclear components to Iran, the sell weapons to Syria, They will bring an Army to Israel if you draw a line from Jerusalem to Moscow it goes straight through Georgia. Do you see Gods hand at work hereI understand this is not about most of the people of Russia its about the governments Many christians will be in your postion of their nataive countries joining with Antichrist or falling under Gods displeasure,The facts are what they are Remember You are a christian fisrt and foremost. You follow Gods Word above that of men even if its your heritage.
Yea, another note: to sell nuclear weapons is enough for my common sense to see that they LOVE wars. Aren't we suppose to HATE wars? Even though I don't know much details...it reminds me of WWII...you know Atomic bomb... I can only carry fragments of what I know...even though I don't know the whole thing. Hitler loves war...Yuck...
 

Wakka

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Yea, another note: to sell nuclear weapons is enough for my common sense to see that they LOVE wars. Aren't we suppose to HATE wars? Even though I don't know much details...it reminds me of WWII...you know Atomic bomb... I can only carry fragments of what I know...even though I don't know the whole thing. Hitler loves war...Yuck...
Stop it. Stop being hypocritical. You call Russia a monster, but your own nation not only sells weapons, but funds wars. You make me sick.I realize that Russia will play a role during the end times, but don't hate them. At least not yet, because to be honest, they haven't done anything wrong as to this moment.It's all hypocrisy, and I just wanted you to see the truth. Russia's conflict with Georgia is incredibly just, and I can't see how you can support Georgia.I'm seriously considering leaving these forums.
 

Jordan

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Yea, another note: to sell nuclear weapons is enough for my common sense to see that they LOVE wars. Aren't we suppose to HATE wars? Even though I don't know much details...it reminds me of WWII...you know Atomic bomb...I can only carry fragments of what I know...even though I don't know the whole thing. Hitler loves war...Yuck...
Stop it. Stop being hypocritical. You call Russia a monster, but your own nation not only sells weapons, but funds wars. You make me sick.I realize that Russia will play a role during the end times, but don't hate them. At least not yet, because to be honest, they haven't done anything wrong as to this moment.It's all hypocrisy, and I just wanted you to see the truth. Russia's conflict with Georgia is incredibly just, and I can't see how you can support Georgia.I'm seriously considering leaving these forums.Must you be so harsh to me Wakka? Oh well, it's life I guess. Things happens, and things come and go. *sigh* ...Maybe you would understand my heart and mind one day... but just not on that tone of voice and way of thinking towards me...
 

Christina

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Wakka you are otta line just because not everyone agrees with you. You are the one that cant be objective. Like it or not this conflict has gone on for years this was just the culmination of it. Russia cant not stand any of what it considers traitor break away nations making friends/allies with the west if it hadnt been this it would have been something else it is the End times and the Russian government is against God.Your anger at us is misdirected. We never claimed the US was without faults we are saying God says Russia has and Evil thought prophesies againt her. You are angry because we are listening to God?
 

tomwebster

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Wakka you are otta line just because not everyone does not agree with you. You are the one that cant be objective. Like it or not this conflict has gone on for years this was just the culmination of it. Russia cant not stand any of what it considers traitor break away nations making friends/allies with the west if it hadnt been this it would have been something else it is the End times and the Russian government is against God.Your anger at us is misdirected. We never claimed the US was without faults we are saying God says Russia has and Evil thought prophesies againt her. You are angry because we are listening to God.
I want to emphasize that point "the Russian government is against God." Not our brothers and sisters in Christ in Russia
 
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