The Truth About The Rapture

[242006]

I don't believe in rapture.

God is against witchcraft.

I agree with you that there is no rapture but I don't agree that your examples prove it.

Of course, God is against witchcraft; however, Eze. 13:18-23 has nothing whatsoever to do with 'wichcraft'. Those scriptures speak against 'fly away' doctrine as I previously demonstrated.

Sometimes, a person needs to assess motive with people's actions. In so many of the newer English translations, we see 'birds' and 'witchcraft' as the subjects in these scriptures instead of 'hunting souls to make them fly'. The questions that a rational person would ask is 'why' make such alterations and 'who' benefits from them.

Now, undoubtedly, there are many words mistranslated in the KJV. However, in most newer English Bible renditions, the claims of the authors for the new rendition are usually benign, such as this one -

NKJV -
"I is not a brand new version, but the traditional King James Version that has been beloved for centuries, but where necessary, brought up to date in language. . . . No doctrine has been changed . . ."


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Here we see that the authors of the NKJV, with first edition in 1978, claim that it is simply the KJV Bible brought up to date in language, with no changes in the doctrine from the KJV. Yet, when one reads Eze. 13:18-20 therein, one sees -

13:18 "and say, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Woe to the women who sew magic charms on their sleeves and make veils for the heads of people of every height to hunt souls! Will you hunt the souls of My people, and keep yourselves alive?

13:19 "And will you profane Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, killing people who should not die, and keeping people alive who should not live, by your lying to My people who listen to lies?"

13:20 'Therefore thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I am agaist your magic charms by which you hunt souls there like birds. I will tear them from your arms, and let the souls go, the souls you hunt like birds.


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and, then compare to the same in the KJV

Eze 13:18​

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And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

Eze 13:19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?

Eze 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

​

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the language was not simply "brought up to date", as the NKJV authors claimed; but, the words were altered in order to change the meaning thereof the scriptures. Hence, the NKJV authors were liars in claiming that "no doctrine has been changed".

It just so happens that the NIV was also first printed in 1978. Therein the NIV, one sees in Eze. 13:18-20 the exact same changes from the KJV as the NKJV undertakes. Yet, the NIV claims to be an entirely new translation; whereas, the NKJV claims to have the language "brought up to date". Certainly, the timing and similarity in wording is not mere coincidence.

Undoubtedly, the motive of the NKJV authors in changing Eze. 13:18-23 was nefarious. The 'why' is easy to spot. The KJV speaks agains 'fly away' doctrine. Of course, it is equally easy to determine 'who' benefits from the change. Satan benefits! Those, who read these latter renditions, would not see that God is against Rapture in these scriptures. Rapture is Satan's endtime Doctrine. So, the more that Rapture can be confused in Bible, the better off Satan is in deceiving christians.

 

[TexUs]

Actually as I thought about this, I am going to still stick by my original statement that the 2 Thes passage isn't support for this.

The reasoning, and I agree, was that it states the evil one will come before Christ does.

Well, rapture theorists or at least most of them, don't say that the rapture is the return of Christ.
1) Rapture
2) Evil One
3) Christ

2 Thes would only disprove
1) Christ
2) Rapture
3) Evil One

 

[Martin W.]

It is an absolute fact of scripture that sometime in the future , living Christians will be translated to meet the Lord in the air. (rapture)

This happens right after the resurrection of the Christians from the grave.

Nobody can make an argument against this fact of scripture. Period. Get over it.



The only thing open for debate is the timing of this event.

And debate we do , for ever and ever , amen.

I for one , would give a lot more credibility to the anti-rapture crowd if at least they knew what they were debating. Most often they do not. It is like they have a pet hatred of rapture doctrine and hate anyone who does not follow obediently behind them. That is their motive , it reads through their every post.


The bottom line is that we have not been given enough information to exactly determine the timing of this future event.

If we are not able to accurately determine when it will happen , we certainly are not qualified to say when it will not happen either.

 

[Vincent]

Martin, you seem to want to ignore the fact that "meeting the Lord in the air" can easily be figurative language. Therefore it is not "an absolute fact" as you say. Rather, it is your belief that it is a literal description.

 

[Martin W.]

You can stand with John Darby if you wish, but I STAND WITH JESUS CHRIST ON THIS ISSUE.

I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one.
John 17:15

It doesn't get any clearer than this kiddo.

You would find it much clearer if you first determined who Jesus was referring to (and praying for) in John 17:15

That would be a first step to properly applying scripture.

Best wishes in all the steps you take [email protected]

.

------------------

Folks - here is a quick guideline:

In John chapter 17 Jesus is praying for himself from approximately verse 1 to verse 5
Then he prays for his 12 disciples from verse 6 to 19
Then he prays for all believers from verse 20 to 26 .
Lets make sure we always get it right.


To misappropriate the words of Jesus is a serious consideration.
I expect Jesus would forgive it.
I find it much harder to overlook.
It is a weakness I have. Sorry.


It brings me great joy when Christians can study the bible and apply scripture in its proper context. It is something we should all strive for.

It tends to result in increasing christian joy and learning
Incorrect doctrine subtracts from that.

Making mistakes is part of being a christian .
Not making them a second time is honorable.



Best wishes.
Arnie Martin
Woodside

 

[Martin W.]

Martin, you seem to want to ignore the fact that "meeting the Lord in the air" can easily be figurative language. Therefore it is not "an absolute fact" as you say. Rather, it is your belief that it is a literal description.

Rather than you (mistakenly) deciding what I take literally and what I take figuratively , I would find it much more productive if we kept the focus on the translation of living Christians .

If you know of a "different scenario" to explain what happens to living Christians when Jesus comes in the clouds of the air , please present it. I am all ears..

Thank you
A. Martin
Woodside

 

[Vincent]

Rather than you (mistakenly) deciding what I take literally and what I take figuratively , I would find it much more productive if we kept the focus on the translation of living Christians .

If you know of a "different scenario" to explain what happens to living Christians when Jesus comes in the clouds of the air , please present it. I am all ears..

Thank you
A. Martin
Woodside

Easy. They are changed to become incorruptible. Just like those who took part in the first resurrection. Those are "the ones in the clouds". "Clouds" are used figuratively in the Bible to represent power and glory. They will not actually physically fly up into the clouds. Rather they will join those who have already taken on their new bodies, and they will become like them. Incorruptible, in power and glory.

 

[TexUs]

I do agree with the comments about literal vs symbolic.

It's a fact, yes, if one takes it literally.
It's not a fact, no, if one takes it symbolically (Very few are the prophecies that are literal).

Both sides hold merit, Martin. It's just the literal vs symbolic issue.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17... For the symbolist:
v16, Christ descends to raise those sleeping.
v17, We meet Christ and welcome him to earth (clouds/air being symbolic for his glory/majesty).

For the literalist:
v16, Christ descends to raise those sleeping.
v17, Those left will meet Christ on his way back to Heaven


Again, both hold merit. I just am very reluctant to hold to the literalist view because prophecy was and is RARELY literal.

 

[Martin W.]

.
In post #140 watchman said:

Watchman_2, on 09 January 2011 - 06:22 PM, said:

You made no sense -- there are no 'qualifying words'.

Of course, and 2 Thes. 2:2-4 defeats rapture theory, which claims that Christ returns prior to Satan.

You contradict yourself. Or, you are unfamiliar with the Rapture theory.

Then Texus said:

I stand corrected, I see what you mean now after clarification of Christ prior to Satan.

Good work. Pretty damning to escapists' theory.

Which makes me want to say :
2 thes 2:2-4 is talking about "The day of the Lord" (wrath) right ?
But is it necessarily the same event as 1Thes 4:15-18 ??? (caught up in clouds)

Many feel there are two different events as follows:
1. a day where Jesus comes for his church 1Thes 4:15-18
2. then a different day of the Lord's wrath 2Thes 2:2-4
Are we making a mistake thinking they are one event and at the same time ?

Another way to put it (in my opinion) is there one event where Jesus comes for his church (the gathering)
Another event signifies the wrath of the Lamb (day of the Lord)
And yet another event where Jesus comes with his church . (in victory)

It is my understanding , that all our arguments (rapture debate) hinges on splitting these fine hairs

I have to run now. Sorry. I am not trying to drop a grenade. Just prompt our thinking.

Oh , and one other thing , I feel nearly everybody here is correct that the Thessalonian writings are not so much about so-called rapture doctrine , rather the intent of it is to assure the (living) Christians that the (dead) Christians would not miss out on anything (ie: Jesus returning )

Whew !!!!

Sorry for the hurried explanation. I do not require an answer and I do not stand firm on any one position. . My motive is to prompt us to consider many different things when we try to determine the timing of these events.

Which of course we are not able to do with the limited information we have.

But we try anyway
Splitting fine hairs is not easy


Best wishes
Martin

 

[Martin W.]

"Clouds" are used figuratively in the Bible to represent power and glory. They will not actually physically fly up into the clouds.

Hi Vincent

I tend to take it literal for the following quick reasons:

- all the surrounding passages in that segment of Thessalonians appear to be literal
- if it just said "air" it could mean air one inch above the ground , or possibly air a thousand light years away.
- but it also mentions clouds.
- we know exactly where clouds are normally situated.
- of course they are above us in our atmosphere , not way up in heaven .
- the Lord clearly states he will come down from heaven to the clouds to gather us.
- it clearly says we will go up

Those are a couple of reasons I tend to take those passages literally.
Sounds to me exactly like the literal clouds in the air above us that we are all familiar with,

To try to make it something else would prove extremely difficult.
I feel to try to parachute a ' figurative interpretation ' into the middle of a ' literal context ' is incorrect.



Talk later
Thanks
Martin

 

[veteran]

.
2 thes 2:2-4 is talking about "The day of the Lord" (wrath) right ?
But is it necessarily the same event as 1Thes 4:15-18 ??? (caught up in clouds)

Many feel there are two different events as follows:
1. a day where Jesus comes for his church 1Thes 4:15-18
2. then a different day of the Lord's wrath 2Thes 2:2-4
Are we making a mistake thinking they are one event and at the same time ?

Another way to put it (in my opinion) is there one event where Jesus comes for his church (the gathering)
Another event signifies the wrath of the Lamb (day of the Lord)
And yet another event where Jesus comes with his church . (in victory)

It is my understanding , that all our arguments (rapture debate) hinges on splitting these fine hairs

The day of The LORD event is when Christ comes as a thief in the night (1 Thess.5; 2 Peter 3:10). It's also when the saints still on earth are changed at the twinkling of an eye. It's also when Christ's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked, especially in Jerusalem where He returns to and His saints are gathered to. Apostle Paul was pulling from Isaiah 25 about that change at a twinkling of an eye, and victory for those in Christ Jesus. All those events occur at the same timing, very quickly.

The Pre-trib rapture school tries to separate the 1 Thess.4 "trump" event apart from the 1 Cor.15 "last trump" event. Both are about the resurrection at Christ's second coming though. Both are about the same trumpet, the 7th of Revelation 11.


Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)

Christ gives a warning of His coming "as a thief" just prior to the 7th vial being poured out. Then the battle of Armageddon occurs with the 7th vial poured out into the air. Why did our Lord give that warning of His coming "as a thief" in between the 6th and 7th vials? Who does He mean will blessed that watcheth and keeps his garments?

That proves Christ's return to gather His saints, the day of The LORD event with His cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked at Armageddon, is on that 7th vial. Not before the 7th vial, not even before the 1st vial. But on the 7th vial.

Man's theology is based upon their own desires for self-preservation in the last days. What better way to do that than to create an idea of escape? Surely The LORD loves His enough not to make His servants be here on earth through all that, they want to think. If that doesn't work, then they apply God's judgments upon the wicked also upon any of Christ's servants that are on the earth through those events of the day of The LORD. Just as God was very accurate with His judgments upon the Egyptians during Moses' day, while protecting His own at the same time, that's how it will be in the end of this world also. We are not to have fear, for He is with us.

 

[Vincent]

Hi Vincent

I tend to take it literal for the following quick reasons:

- all the surrounding passages in that segment of Thessalonians appear to be literal
- if it just said "air" it could mean air one inch above the ground , or possibly air a thousand light years away.
- but it also mentions clouds.
- we know exactly where clouds are normally situated.
- of course they are above us in our atmosphere , not way up in heaven .
- the Lord clearly states he will come down from heaven to the clouds to gather us.
- it clearly says we will go up

Those are a couple of reasons I tend to take those passages literally.
Sounds to me exactly like the literal clouds in the air above us that we are all familiar with,

To try to make it something else would prove extremely difficult.
I feel to try to parachute a ' figurative interpretation ' into the middle of a ' literal context ' is incorrect.



Talk later
Thanks
Martin

o.k. now let me tell you why I don't believe it can be literal. btw. I believe I've gone over this before in this very same thread but I'm too lazy to go back and look it up.

If we are to literally "fly up" then it would be impossible for those trapped indoors. Like in prisons or in submarines. Will they have to miss out? Of course not. So it seems pretty obvious that we will not be physically flying up. Now of course the Lord has the ability to make us magically disappear from one place and reappear in another, but if he was going to do that, why would he make us reappear in the clouds? Why not at our final destination?

Secondly there may not be any clouds on that day in your area. It could be cloudy in Wisconsin and sunny and clear in Alberta. Would some of us have to fly horizontally for a while to find some clouds?

Also, if Jesus is in one part of the world, like let's say Israel, what about those who are raptured from Hawaii? They would have to fly halfway around the world to meet the Lord. And then the ones raptured in or near Israel would have to wait around for the rest of us to catch up. Hovering in the clouds.

And the further you go with this the more and more silly it seems. This is not the way I see God bringing his plan to completion. It's just weird. Of course God can do whatever he wants, but let's ask ourselves what would make more sense. A literal interpretation, or a figurative? Either way, we end up with Jesus in his kingdom forever and ever so that part is good, but the discussion here is about how we get there. I just don't think we will get there by physically flying up into the clouds.

 

[TexUs]

Are we making a mistake thinking they are one event and at the same time ?

That very well may be.
Generally speaking many end time views will link passages together, as you're pointing to, that were never linked together by Biblical authors themselves. There are rare (Matthew 24, he references Daniel's prophecy) instances where they're actually linked.

I tend to take it literal for the following quick reasons:
- all the surrounding passages in that segment of Thessalonians appear to be literal
- if it just said "air" it could mean air one inch above the ground , or possibly air a thousand light years away.
- but it also mentions clouds.
- we know exactly where clouds are normally situated.
- of course they are above us in our atmosphere , not way up in heaven .
- the Lord clearly states he will come down from heaven to the clouds to gather us.
- it clearly says we will go up

I won't disagree that the surrounding passages are literal. It's talking about sins of man, love for others... These things are pretty literal. But as I've said many times, very rare of the prophecies that are literal. I can't even think of one that was literal. So the prophecies we know about were symbolic, but the prophecies still future are literal? It just doesn't make sense, it seems to me that these would all be the same, either literal or symbolic- especially when regarding the OT prophecies.

Secondly, I don't think the surrounding passages (IE, the day of the Lord, after this) are as literal as what you claim. "Children of the day", "thief in the night", "labor pains of a pregnant woman", "let us not sleep", "we belong to the day", etc, etc, etc... This is all symbolic language.

Clouds are almost always used in reference to the Glory of Christ, when they aren't, the context is clear it's talking of literal weather clouds. We don't see this context here.
So air, could mean anything. It could reference just being elevated about the earth, who knows.

The Lord doesn't clearly state he comes down into the clouds.
In v16 he descends from heaven- that's all it says. Then in v17 you have the "caught up in the clouds".

It also doesn't clearly state "up", as "up" isn't in the Greek. harpazo is translated into both words, "caught up"- which also has translations and usage of seize, catch, pluck, pull, take.

 

[[email protected]]

Man's theology is based upon their own desires for self-preservation in the last days. What better way to do that than to create an idea of escape? Surely The LORD loves His enough not to make His servants be here on earth through all that, they want to think. If that doesn't work, then they apply God's judgments upon the wicked also upon any of Christ's servants that are on the earth through those events of the day of The LORD. Just as God was very accurate with His judgments upon the Egyptians during Moses' day, while protecting His own at the same time, that's how it will be in the end of this world also. We are not to have fear, for He is with us.

"What better way to do that than to create an idea of escape?"

This is certainly one of the clearest and best statements OF FAITH I have read on this thread in quite a while.

At the end of the day, all the rhetoric about the rapture boils down to one thing;
Howbeit when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Luk 18:8b

Consider also the words of Our Lord Jesus when He prayed to the Father;
I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one.
Joh 17:15

First, last and always we are to live by FAITH.
Y'all can't do that if you're busy being fitted for a rocket belt or wings or a place on the Star Trek transporter platform.

 

[Martin W.]

o.k. now let me tell you why I don't believe it can be literal. btw. I believe I've gone over this before in this very same thread but I'm too lazy to go back and look it up.

If we are to literally "fly up" then it would be impossible for those trapped indoors. Like in prisons or in submarines. Will they have to miss out? Of course not. So it seems pretty obvious that we will not be physically flying up. Now of course the Lord has the ability to make us magically disappear from one place and reappear in another, but if he was going to do that, why would he make us reappear in the clouds? Why not at our final destination?

Secondly there may not be any clouds on that day in your area. It could be cloudy in Wisconsin and sunny and clear in Alberta. Would some of us have to fly horizontally for a while to find some clouds?

Also, if Jesus is in one part of the world, like let's say Israel, what about those who are raptured from Hawaii? They would have to fly halfway around the world to meet the Lord. And then the ones raptured in or near Israel would have to wait around for the rest of us to catch up. Hovering in the clouds.

And the further you go with this the more and more silly it seems. This is not the way I see God bringing his plan to completion. It's just weird. Of course God can do whatever he wants, but let's ask ourselves what would make more sense. A literal interpretation, or a figurative? Either way, we end up with Jesus in his kingdom forever and ever so that part is good, but the discussion here is about how we get there. I just don't think we will get there by physically flying up into the clouds.

Hi Vincent

I am going to back up a bit on the clouds issue. When I said literal I did not have in mind that actual clouds were required to be in our sky in order for us to meet Jesus. I retract that statement.

What I had in mind was that we meet the Lord in the immediate sky above us. Not some imaginary clouds in heaven or elsewhere. I think that was the topic back when I said I felt clouds was "literal" . Hope that makes sense.

As far as how we get changed to new bodies , I have no idea. I also have no idea how the dead are resurrected from the graves , the ashes and the sea.

I also do not know how everybody in the world will see the Lord when he comes. I also do not know how we get to Jerusalem. Do we all get on 747's ? I doubt it. I think there will be things happening on earth that we cannot even comprehend at this moment.

The following is not necessarily directed at you Vince , just at the non-rapture folks in general.. I think it safe to assume we all believe in the ressurection of the christians some day in the future. Fine. So what do you think happens to the living Christians at that time ? If they are not going to be translated (raptured) then what ? Do they have to wait to die to be resurrected later ? What about the kids they have etc. It wouldnt work.

For that reason I hold fast to the clear teaching that living Christians will be "translated" to new bodies when the Lord gathers his church. It is only the timing that we are uncertain of. I cannot deny the rapture. I see no other option.

Talk later
Thanks
Martin.

 

[TexUs]

Hi Vincent

I am going to back up a bit on the clouds issue. When I said literal I did not have in mind that actual clouds were required to be in our sky in order for us to meet Jesus. I retract that statement.

What I had in mind was that we meet the Lord in the immediate sky above us. Not some imaginary clouds in heaven or elsewhere. I think that was the topic back when I said I felt clouds was "literal" . Hope that makes sense.

As far as how we get changed to new bodies , I have no idea. I also have no idea how the dead are resurrected from the graves , the ashes and the sea.

I also do not know how everybody in the world will see the Lord when he comes. I also do not know how we get to Jerusalem. Do we all get on 747's ? I doubt it. I think there will be things happening on earth that we cannot even comprehend at this moment.

The following is not necessarily directed at you Vince , just at the non-rapture folks in general.. I think it safe to assume we all believe in the ressurection of the christians some day in the future. Fine. So what do you think happens to the living Christians at that time ? If they are not going to be translated (raptured) then what ? Do they have to wait to die to be resurrected later ? What about the kids they have etc. It wouldnt work.

For that reason I hold fast to the clear teaching that living Christians will be "translated" to new bodies when the Lord gathers his church. It is only the timing that we are uncertain of. I cannot deny the rapture. I see no other option.

Talk later
Thanks
Martin.

I don't think anyone will disagree the people on earth will be given new bodies. What's disagreed with is the movement of people from earth to heaven.

 

[Vincent]

Hi Vincent

I am going to back up a bit on the clouds issue. When I said literal I did not have in mind that actual clouds were required to be in our sky in order for us to meet Jesus. I retract that statement.

What I had in mind was that we meet the Lord in the immediate sky above us. Not some imaginary clouds in heaven or elsewhere. I think that was the topic back when I said I felt clouds was "literal" . Hope that makes sense.

As far as how we get changed to new bodies , I have no idea. I also have no idea how the dead are resurrected from the graves , the ashes and the sea.

I also do not know how everybody in the world will see the Lord when he comes. I also do not know how we get to Jerusalem. Do we all get on 747's ? I doubt it. I think there will be things happening on earth that we cannot even comprehend at this moment.

The following is not necessarily directed at you Vince , just at the non-rapture folks in general.. I think it safe to assume we all believe in the ressurection of the christians some day in the future. Fine. So what do you think happens to the living Christians at that time ? If they are not going to be translated (raptured) then what ? Do they have to wait to die to be resurrected later ? What about the kids they have etc. It wouldnt work.

For that reason I hold fast to the clear teaching that living Christians will be "translated" to new bodies when the Lord gathers his church. It is only the timing that we are uncertain of. I cannot deny the rapture. I see no other option.

Talk later
Thanks
Martin.

As TexUs already said, we agree that we all get new bodies, it's just the flying up part that we don't agree on, so I'll let your respond to him on that one.

As for the cloud part, you have addressed it, but you still seem to believe that we will fly up into the sky. How then do you respond to my other paragraph about the people in submarines and such?

[font="tahoma]

If we are to literally "fly up" then it would be impossible for those trapped indoors. Like in prisons or in submarines. Will they have to miss out? Of course not. So it seems pretty obvious that we will not be physically flying up. Now of course the Lord has the ability to make us magically disappear from one place and reappear in another, but if he was going to do that, why would he make us reappear in the clouds? Why not at our final destination?

[/font]

 

[guysmith]

Hello textus,

You stated: I don't think anyone will disagree the people on earth will be given new bodies. What's disagreed with is the movement of people from earth to heaven.

My response: How do you explain the two witnesses?

Guy

 

[veteran]

As far as how we get changed to new bodies , I have no idea. I also have no idea how the dead are resurrected from the graves , the ashes and the sea.

I also do not know how everybody in the world will see the Lord when he comes. I also do not know how we get to Jerusalem. Do we all get on 747's ? I doubt it. I think there will be things happening on earth that we cannot even comprehend at this moment.

The following is not necessarily directed at you Vince , just at the non-rapture folks in general.. I think it safe to assume we all believe in the ressurection of the christians some day in the future. Fine. So what do you think happens to the living Christians at that time ? If they are not going to be translated (raptured) then what ? Do they have to wait to die to be resurrected later ? What about the kids they have etc. It wouldnt work.

For that reason I hold fast to the clear teaching that living Christians will be "translated" to new bodies when the Lord gathers his church. It is only the timing that we are uncertain of. I cannot deny the rapture. I see no other option.

We're given hints of the 'how', with the resurrection Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, and with the Greek word 'harpazo' for "caught up", which means to seize. The way God transported some of His prophets, even Apostle Philip, is a big hint...

Acts 8:39-40
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
(KJV)

The phrase "caught away" is the Greek word 'harpazo', the same word rendered "caught up" in the KJV. Apostle Philip was in the desert of Gaza with the Ethiopian, and then all a sudden he was gone, transported to Azotus (north of Gaza). If that's easy enough for Philip in the flesh, then how much more easy will it be after the change to the "spiritual body" on the last trump of Christ's coming. It's like the Heavenly has a totally different way of manifesting space and time that we today have a hard time grasping.

 

[[email protected]]

As TexUs already said, we agree that we all get new bodies, it's just the flying up part that we don't agree on, so I'll let your respond to him on that one.

As for the cloud part, you have addressed it, but you still seem to believe that we will fly up into the sky. How then do you respond to my other paragraph about the people in submarines and such?

[font="tahoma][/font]

I guess I'll have to make very sure that I'm not trapped in a submarine, an elevator or Macy's bargain basement when that happens.

Some of us need to lose a little weight first.
I'm sure the lift off for those folks will be a bit tricky.

Will the rapture make connections through Phoenix or Atlanta?
The trip might slow down a little if its during the holidays.
Will there be any security angels present to peek and feel?
One things for sure, no worries about luggage.

Good point about the clouds, though.
Once we're up there, if its a cloudy day how are we supposed to find our way around?
What if its at night? You know its always night somewhere.

What about the babies?
I mean you know there's going to be some kid crying for his mommy.
Will there be a nursery service and if so how do you report a crying kid?
Piercing screams from little kids with high altitude problems could give the rest of us a headache and spoil the whole event.

The best part of all is that we'll have left the earth early just as the real trouble is getting started.
It's kinda like getting out of school before the homework is assigned.
It's like watching a bully beat up on everybody else in the school yard and we get to watch the fun from a second story window.

I get to max out my credit cards and let my relatives pay the bill.
Geez we can go on and on about this except for one thing.

Where does faith come into any of this? I mean faith in times of trouble.....oh I forgot, we're excused from that part.
Must be that the Bible writing about faith was for somebody else....like those poor kids who stayed behind and got beat up in the school yard by the bully.
Gee I'm so glad that the rest of us saints don't have to worry about faith......just stay out of submarines and we'll be ok.