The Truth Of Becoming Unbelieving

[MatthewG]

God does not violate free will to save anyone.
So, that hyper-calvinism doctrine needs to be removed from humanity.

What God does is Provide His LOVE for Humanity, proven by Dying on the Cross, and God says..>"will you come to me, will you take my Son by FAITH".
And that is not forcing anyone, and that is the Gospel.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[MatthewG]

Amen brother, God does not change and that is such a comfort to me. He is our Rock of salvation the one whom we cling to with dear life!

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Dropship]

Jesus said "My Father is always working" (John 5:17)

Which begs the question 'Where exactly is he working'?
Perhaps he works within our minds, giving us (among other things) little "comfort nudges" to enable us to roll with the punches that life throws at us?
"A person without any spiritual depth is like a wagon without springs, jolted by every pebble on life's road"- Anon

 

[PinSeeker]

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to ~ so that you both ~ will and to work for His good pleasure."
[Philippians 2:12-13]

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Gregory]

I believe when God is sovereign and predestined the world according to his planning, for his glory, that we are not actually able to execute our will to supercede his.

As he tells us.

If we cannot execute our will, and God's will supercedes our will, then we are good or bad depending upon God's will.

IOW God determines who will go to heaven and who will burn eternally in the lake of fire and brimstone, based on His good pleasure.

IOW does that sound like the loving Creator God to you???????????????????????

I believe the scriptures are abundant with passages that tells us we are in a cooperative position with God.
He brings us the knowledge of Himself and His Son Jesus Christ. We have the free agency to either believe or not. If we believe and stay true to the will of the Father and the Son we will reap great rewards in this life and in the eternal worlds.

If we choose not to believe we will receive what the Father and Son has in store for us down this path.

It has to be this way for God and Jesus will not send us to the lake of fire and brimstone at Their food pleasure.
So choose the right path that will lead you to Heaven, and God and Jesus will then reward you with great blessings your mind and heart cannot even imagine.

 

[MatthewG]

If we cannot execute our will, and God's will supercedes our will, then we are good or bad depending upon God's will.

IOW God determines who will go to heaven and who will burn eternally in the lake of fire and brimstone, based on His good pleasure.

IOW does that sound like the loving Creator God to you???????????????????????

I believe the scriptures are abundant with passages that tells us we are in a cooperative position with God.
He brings us the knowledge of Himself and His Son Jesus Christ. We have the free agency to either believe or not. If we believe and stay true to the will of the Father and the Son we will reap great rewards in this life and in the eternal worlds.

If we choose not to believe we will receive what the Father and Son has in store for us down this path.

It has to be this way for God and Jesus will not send us to the lake of fire and brimstone at Their food pleasure.
So choose the right path that will lead you to Heaven, and God and Jesus will then reward you with great blessings your mind and heart cannot even imagine.

What you say here is true. This is a dilemma in itself as you put it. That is good that you can tell a difference about what is being said. For me I would say that God's good and perfect will is to have none perish. And have come to understand or faith really, that God has a place for all people in the heavenly Realm - The kingdom for who make the choice to believe or not, and on the outside of the Crystal like city in the Heavenly Jerusalem, where the Lamb shines, and the gates around city number to the total of 12. What is that outside realm like? I do not know but it is said nonbelievers roam around there, and for me I actually like to believe this is a possibility because no one can really say "no that can not be", just on based differing beliefs because of how an individual may either look at God, look at scripture or simply believe what grandpa, and gramma had taught through their years growing up. God is good. He has a perfect will, and to he doesn't want any person to perish however everyone has to make their choice in this life whether they will pursue after God and reap the rewards of the Spirit here and now, and upon passing on to this life, they will end up in a new spiritual place from my understanding. God is spirit as well, and His Holy Spirit dwells with us as we believe now today. Those who do not believe simply may not know what it is really like to have a knowledge of these things and how useful it is to actually know that God's Kingdom will never stop increasing. It seems impossible our world to be as old as it is, but it will keep going and people will come to God by faith in this life, and God doesn't cut everyone down at the end (except for the Nation of Israel who braced the Wrath of God which in my view the cup has been emptied).

 

[ChristisGod]

@MatthewG where in the Bible does it say Israel already has suffered Gods wrath ?

I’ve looked at ever use of wrath in the NT and cannot find it so can your quote the passage to support that belief ?

Thanks

hope this helps !!!

 

[MatthewG]

Did you know some people say Jesus Christ suffered God's wrath? That doesn't make much sense. Why would a God who is described as good and love, place out the wrath on God's only soon to be begotten Son upon resurrection? The Wrath of God to me personally what I tend to believe is that The Wrath of God was taken out of the Jewish Nation of Israel on all whom had killed His Son. God was going to divorce them by destroying everything that had known under their heavens and earth and the surrounding areas are what initiated that wrath to be taken out materially on them, around the 70 AD time. Which obliterated everything the Jewish people had known and the temple was destroyed as promised by Jesus. Those who were looking by faith to see the Lord God Almighty - Yeshua would come as promised in the clouds and rescue them (who by faith were looking around at all of these things getting worse and worse only to be rescued from the fall of the wrath that would come to them for having disobeyed and they had enough time to repent, from the further obliteration of the temple, and 1,100,000 of a whole society died in the first century. (there was a few that were transferred somewhere else who may have been taken as slaves possible but perhaps were not believers but witness of the fall of such a great magnitude. (Josephus, Cassius Dio, Suetonius, Tactius are a few references)

 

[ChristisGod]

There are so many misconceptions, misnomers and misunderstandings regarding Gods wrath . I’ve been studying that topic in depth now since 2015 and have included many of those wrong ideas in a thesis paper I have written. But I know you @MatthewG are not interested in it so I will not cast those pearls .

Hope this helps !!!

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

If we cannot execute our will, and God's will supercedes our will, then we are good or bad depending upon God's will.

IOW God determines who will go to heaven and who will burn eternally in the lake of fire and brimstone, based on His good pleasure.

IOW does that sound like the loving Creator God to you???????????????????????

I believe the scriptures are abundant with passages that tells us we are in a cooperative position with God.
He brings us the knowledge of Himself and His Son Jesus Christ. We have the free agency to either believe or not. If we believe and stay true to the will of the Father and the Son we will reap great rewards in this life and in the eternal worlds.

If we choose not to believe we will receive what the Father and Son has in store for us down this path.

It has to be this way for God and Jesus will not send us to the lake of fire and brimstone at Their food pleasure.
So choose the right path that will lead you to Heaven, and God and Jesus will then reward you with great blessings your mind and heart cannot even imagine.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

God via the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins , man responds in faith and repentance and then becomes regenerated having new life , the new birth . This always follows faith and it’s man’s responsibility to believe and repent . God does not do that for the sinner .

hope this helps !!!

Well of course we must say yes, but until teh Spirit changes the inclination of our heart- we would never repent no matter how long we lived!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

God does not violate free will to save anyone.
So, that hyper-calvinism doctrine needs to be removed from humanity.

What God does is Provide His LOVE for Humanity, proven by Dying on the Cross, and God says..>"will you come to me, will you take my Son by FAITH".
And that is not forcing anyone, and that is the Gospel.

That is simply the invitation that we send forth! whether one answers the invitation requires a move by god in an unbvelievers hearet to be able to say yes! Other wise all would sday no.

The bible is clear that the unsaved man cannot please God! So unless God changes a person first- they cannot say yes to Jesus.

Remember also that God had PAul tell us that the things of God are foolish to the unsaved man!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I think this is a twisted view of mankind and his relationship with his Creator.

Well you are free to think anything you wish but it is the bible as written.

God loves us despite us!

 

[ChristisGod]

Well of course we must say yes, but until teh Spirit changes the inclination of our heart- we would never repent no matter how long we lived!

And many reject the conviction of the HS and never repent . Stephen in acts called them stiff necked in Acts 7:51 always resisting the Holy Spirit. Man has the free will to accept and receive or reject Gods call to salvation .

hope this helps !!!

 

[MatthewG]

Stiff necked. Hard to convince?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And many reject the conviction of the HS and never repent . Stephen in acts called them stiff necked in Acts 7:51 always resisting the Holy Spirit. Man has the free will to accept and receive or reject Gods call to salvation .

hope this helps !!!

Paul clearly wrote in Romans that man is ewnslaved to sin. He is not subject to the law of god nor can be. That is why we must be made a new creature in christ.

Romans 8 said it best- the natural man cannot please God and receiving Christ is pleasing to god and the unsaved man cannot do that.

Believers have free will to choose or not choose the things of God. Unbelievers do not.

 

[ChristisGod]

Paul clearly wrote in Romans that man is ewnslaved to sin. He is not subject to the law of god nor can be. That is why we must be made a new creature in christ.

Romans 8 said it best- the natural man cannot please God and receiving Christ is pleasing to god and the unsaved man cannot do that.

Believers have free will to choose or not choose the things of God. Unbelievers do not.

That’s false I will give you plenty of verses that prove the opposite is true . Jesus many times told unbelievers, unregenerate , the dead ( Calvinists totally depraved ) that their faith saved them , their faith made them well . The dead prodigal son returned on his own free will . Jesus made it clear that man must choose to deny themselves and follow Him . I’ll provide scripture for all the above later .

Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.

Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."



hope this helps !!!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That’s false I will give you plenty of verses that prove the opposite is true . Jesus many times told unbelievers, unregenerate , the dead ( Calvinists totally depraved ) that their faith saved them , their faith made them well . The dead prodigal son returned on his own free will . Jesus made it clear that man must choose to deny themselves and follow Him . I’ll provide scripture for all the above later .

Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.

Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."



hope this helps !!!

Well your parenthetical add on are the answer! God give us the faith to believe! We do not have it in us inherently! These verses say nothing about free will or election. Just they exercised faith. It does not say where they got it or how they got it. It just says they exercised it! Other passages explain how we get fqaith and that as the bible says, it is not in man of himself to believe to salvation.

 

[bbyrd009]

In order to save somebody- god has to violate what you call free will. Man is by nature an object of wrath and can do nothing to please God according to Scripture. If God did not change our hearts we would never change. And no we cannot even ask Him to change our hearts. As Paul wrote in 1 Cor. we do not even want to for the human nature thinks the things of God foolish.

God elects the saved. we do not choose God, but God first chose us! He is love! all He does is in perfect love whether we can rationalize it or not.

yikes?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

yikes?

Yes yikes! At it says in Hebrews "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God".

To understand the SCriptures and realize that the work of salvation was all of God is something that causes me to fall to my knees in praise and reverential fear of our Holy God!

From God giving us the faith to be saved, and then for Him to change our wicked heart to even want Him is something this pea brain cannot fathom! It is way too far above my pay grade!