The Two Witnesses

[samy]

Kriss, I have been taught, and I teach, that our conclusions have to account for all the evidence. What is your response, and how does your conclusion account for the fact that the two witnesses, when killed are called, "body" not "bodies" as the English Bibles mistranslate (often mentioned in the maragin). Also "fire" comes out of their "mouth" singular instead of plural, again suggesting the unified work of a body of believers who act with a common purpose. Again the beast wages war with them--hardly necessary for two people, but very necessary for a large number of people dispursed world wide. But my main interest here is the use of the term "body." samy

 

[Christina]

well guess it depends on the original translation each has a body I frankly find that the slimest evidence Ive ever heard when it frankly flies in the face of all other scriptureit was translated as bodies the greek word it self doesnt nessarily denote singlar or plural . Its an ify interptation And should you have any scripture to back it up that was not varily easily disproven I would give it some more weight but under the circumstances its just to ify do use as any definitive proof because you would have to discredit to much scripture.

 

[Christina]

If you look its the same word as the one used in Rev 11:9 which is clearly plural 9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves

 

[samy]

Kriss, Here is th Greek, 11:8-9 8καὶ τὸ πτωμα ("the body", noun, neuter, singular, accusative) αὐτων ἐπὶ τnς πλατείας της πόλεως της μεγάλης, ἥτις καλειται πνευματικως Σόδομα καὶ Άιγυπτος, ὅπου καὶ ὁ κύριος αὐτων ἐσταυρώθη. 9καὶ βλέπουσιν ἐκ των λαων καὶ φυλων καὶ γλωσσων καὶ ἐθνων τὸ πτωμα ("the body", noun, neuter, singular, accusative) αὐτων ἡμέρας τρεις καὶ ἥμισυ καὶ τὰ πτώματα ("the bodies", noun, neuter, plural, accusative) αὐτων οὐκ ἀφίουσιν τεθηναι εἰς μνημα. Black, Matthew ; Martini, Carlo M. ; Metzger, Bruce M. ; Wikgren, Allen: The Greek New Testament. Third edition (Corrected). Federal Republic of Germany : United Bible Societies, 1983, S. Re 11:7KrissNotice that the first and second occurrences of body are singular NOT in any way SINGULAR TO BE TRANSLATED PLURAL, THE PLURAL is SUBSTITUTED TO FIT THE TRANSLATORS BIAS. HE IMAGINES THERE MUST BE TWO BODIES. PERIOD. This is the Word of God! Every Word of It. Should we not carry it like David carried the Ark the second timed after the wheeled cart failed to do the trick? samy

 

[HammerStone]

samy, thanks for the explanation of where you are getting this from at least.However, your own interpretation falls in on itself quite quickly with all due respect. The problem is that they are addressed as the two olive trees described outside of the seven candlesticks. What you're proposing is that these two olive trees are also 2/7 candlesticks. Furthermore, you're translating the Greek to mean the singular.Going with the Greek here, the word ptoma, is singular, but the problem with that is that plural forms are used elsewhere, including the very fact that there are two witnesses. Even if this were some kind of a group, their would be more than one body. Two witnesses and one body obviously does not make much sense, especially when the vision is looked at.I see that you're getting all of this from verse four, but it's not very logical at all when you examine it. Again, I go back to Zechariah 4 where they are distinct from the rest.Bodes is properly translated because of this.

 

[samy]

Denver, Each church is a witness to their location within the one body of Christ. The church in Philiadelphia is a witness in Philadelphia, the church in Smyrna is a witness in Smyrna. They are both within the one body of believers in Christ; one body, two witnesses in two separated communities. samy

 

[HammerStone]

They're not in Philadelphia nor Smyrna, the two are in Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8). You're basically suggesting that they kill two churches here but mysteriously they're addressed as one body only in this single instance. Everywhere else there are, rather distinctly, two witnesses.

 

[samy]

Denver, Here is where hermeneutics is so important in Revelation. The text does not say "Jerusalem." It says, "upon the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt where also their Lord was crucified." In the book of Rev the great city is Babylon the Great, the harlot, described in detail and defined for all to read in these places: Rev 17:1,4, 5, 6, 18; 18:10-24. The great city is spiritually sodom and egypt, Babylon, all the cities in history and the present where you would find the, "blood of prophets and saints and all those who have been slain on the earth" (18:24). You find the two witnesses of Jesus slain and lying in the social/political place of commerce, the street, the place endangered by Christianity, where also their Lord was crucified, figuratively. Jesus was not crucified literally in Jerusalem, or in the street of Jerusalem. He was slain outside of Jerusalem on a cross, on a hill. In Revelation, Jerusalem is the Holy City. Only in one place, in a poor text of the Textus Teceptus 21:10 is the great city used to describe the new Jerusalem. (Never in better manuscrips). These are churches/witnesses, two widely divided regions, where two faithful groups of Christian people are witnessing for Jesus with miraculuos power and then being slain (Joel 2). samy

 

[samy]

I will be glad to loan a copy of my book to anyone who wishes to pay postage for the round trip. Total Eclipse:Christ Returns, A Commentary on The Revelation of Jesus Christ. or It can be purchased from any book store or on my web cite. I don't need the money. So don't mistake my mention of it here. samy

 

[Christina]

That is complete speculation see that's danger of going outside scripture to get your symbology you can come up with just about anything that is some mans idea of interptation to say this isnt Jerusalem because tecnically it wasnt in the center of town is craziness. Christ was crusified in Jerusalem the same city where the two wittness's will lie deadif thats your opinion reguardless of what scripture says then keep it theres not much here to say except I dont agree the bible dosent agree.

 

[samy]

John is now supplied "a reed like to a king's scepter" (11:1). This is not a normal measuring device. The fact that a scepter is to be used for measuring indicates that the results are the function of a king's authority. The kind of "measuring" that John is acting out is similar to what King David did when he defeated Moab (2 Sam. 8:2), where measuring meant the difference between life and death for a conquered people.John is to measure "the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it." The temple of Israel which had formerly existed in Jerusalem became for the New Testament writers a symbol that illustrated truth about the church. Thus, the subject of John's "measuring" is the church.Bearing in mind the Jerusalem temple as a figure of the church, and following the measuring line, we note that the line is drawn around certain Jewish members of the church, while the place of the gentile members is "cast out, outside" (see Figure 4, Herod’s Temple). , This violent casting out takes place because "it was given to the nations." This image of violence reinforces the picture first created by the life or death measuring. Further, "they (the people responsible for the violence) will trample under foot the holy city (the community of God's people) for 42 months." But during the time that the Christian community is trampled, the Jewish-Christian contingent will be commissioned to deliver a message, prophesy, dressed in a manner that reflects the gravity of their message. Figure 4. Herod's Temple. The picture that emerges from the measuring is of a ruler (the abomination of desolation, or the beast) who makes a violent move against the church. This hostile move effectively destroys and subjects the gentile contingent of the church, but is ineffective against a particular group of Jewish believers. The subjection of God's people continues for 3 1/2 years. This picture agrees with: (1) the second seal of chapter 6, which depicted warfare and slaughter against the saints; (2) the information about a distinctive group of 144,000 Jewish believers who are "sealed" before the calamities of the trumpets begin (chap. 7); and (3) the destructive act against saints in chapter 12 as we observe the dragon sweeping a third of the stars of heaven and casting them to the earth.Their identityThe identity of the specially commissioned witnesses began with emphasis upon a particular Jewish contingent of the church. God then identifies them as His "two witnesses." Finally, they were specifically identified as "the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth" (11:4). The figure of "two olive trees...that stand before the Lord of the earth" is a direct reference to Zechariah's prophecy (4:3, 11-14), where the olive trees portray the offices of priest and king, receiving the golden oil (the Lord's Spirit) for their function from the Lord (depicted by a single golden lampstand). The two witnesses of Revelation are identified as "the two olive trees" because they exhibit the truth that God's priests are kings who receive power to function from His Spirit ("not by might nor by power" Zech. 4:6). Even more distinctively, the two witnesses are "the two lampstands that stand." In chapter 1, we observed the Lord in the midst of seven lampstands (1:12-13) which He explained "are the seven churches" (1:20). We then saw in chapters 2 and 3 that, of the seven churches addressed, only two stood before the Lord without criticism. These two churches, Smyrna and Philadelphia, were composed of converted ethnic Jews. In addition, Smyrna was addressed with truth about the Lord as the One who died and rose from the dead (first advent: suffering Servant) while Philadelphia was addressed with truth about the Lord as King (second advent: reigning King). Therefore, we can confidently conclude that "the two lampstands that stand" are the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia.Some have suggested that the two witnesses are two individual persons, and offer suggestions about their identity. This mistake is fatal to one's understanding of the role of the 144,000. If the two witnesses are not the two lampstands that stand, the two churches of Philadelphia and Smyrna, the 144,000, and the woman who gives birth, then: (1) churches do not equal lampstands as stated by the Lord in chapter 1; (2) we never observe the mission of the 144,000 during the great tribulation; and (3) the singular word "body" is a verifiable error in the Bible (11:8).In addition, the discussion of the identity and mission of the two witnesses begs the following questions:• Why was John's instruction to measure the temple followed by the discussion of the two witnesses?• How do the 144,000 come to be called the "firstfruits" later in chapter 14, if the two witnesses are indeed the firstfruits (first resurrected)?• How do the 144,000 get to be with the Lord?• Who is the woman in chapter 12?If, as some suggest, the woman (12:1) represents a body of people, then the terms "two witnesses, two lampstands, two olive trees, two prophets" can hardly be limited to two individuals. Their mission Our understanding of their mission is influenced first by the earlier designation that they worship in the altar (11:1). Their lives, like the life of their Lord, reflect the altar and sacrifice (Rom. 12:1-2). Next, the notice that they are two witnesses tells us not only that they are the two churches; but this number answers the legal need to confirm truth under the Law (Deut. 17:6, Matt. 18:16). Also, as they prophesy, they wear sackcloth to portray repentance and mourning (Neh. 9:1, Gen. 37:34). As two lampstands, two churches, their message would be the gospel, calling for sinners to repent and be saved by the sacrifice of the Lamb. They would point to the door about to close with the imminent sounding of the seventh trumpet.Their powerWe are notified that, if attacked, "fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies." This is a figurative way of stating that when they speak, fire results. They also have power to stop the rain, turn water to blood and, cause plagues on the earth. Because the career of these witnesses parallels the sounding of the six trumpets and the calamities brought by their power resemble the results of the trumpets, the trumpets are apparently connected to the power of the witnesses to cause plagues. We are reminded of the plagues brought upon Egypt when Israel was enslaved by Pharaoh. In both cases, the outcome is an exodus from the slavery of the world.Their death and resurrectionAfter the witnesses complete their testimony, the beast (later identified in chapters 13 and 17) overcomes them and kills them. He had opposed them for the 3 1/2 years of their testimony, but only now is successful against them. This body of dead witnesses is portrayed as dead in the "street of the great city." Just as the "holy city" (11:2) described the community of God's people (cf. 21:2), "great city" describes the community of those who oppose God. The great city is described later in chapters 17 and 18, with terms that convince us that it is not just one city in one place, but is the institution of the city. The "street" of the great city is the place of her business, her way of life. Thus, the picture is of a large number who are dead in many cities, having brought a message hostile to the "great city" economy and way of life. The fate of the witnesses at the hands of the great city is the same as the Lord. The great city, which is spiritually (lit. Greek) Sodom and Egypt also put the Lord Jesus to death. John describes two different reactions to the death of the witnesses. On one hand, there is a group of "the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations" who look at the bodies (plural), refusing to allow their burial. The picture here is that this group is expecting the resurrection and rapture of the witnesses. On the other hand, "those who dwell on the earth" send gifts to one another, celebrating the death of these who had tormented "those who dwell on the earth" (11:10).But, after 3 1/2 days, the witnesses are resurrected, and called into heaven in a cloud while their enemies watch. The "voice" that calls them into heaven is the Lord Himself (1 Thess. 4:16). These raptured witnesses are the first recorded in the book of Revelation. Because these, the 144,000, are the first to be raptured, they will later be viewed with the Lord and referred to as "firstfruits" (14:4) of a continuing harvest (14:14-16).We are next notified that at the time of this rapture "there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell" (11:13). “Tenth” is meant to remind us of the tithe. Because the great city has killed the "firstfruits" of the holy city, a tithe is required now of the great city. This destruction of a tenth of the great city is God's response to the murder of the 144,000 of the holy city. The "firstfruits" of the holy city are resurrected; the tithe of the great city is destroyed. The tithe judgment against the great city is further explained as the killing of "seven thousand names of men" (11:13). The phrase "seven thousand names of men" is not meant to simply specify seven thousand individual persons, but apparently describes the death of persons whose behavior ("names") "witnessed" mankind rather than God. These "names of men" are the antitype of the witnesses of God. Because God's witnesses have been killed, these names of mankind are killed.Some chronological reminders: "woes" and "trumpets"John's note that "the second woe is past" reveals that we have arrived again at the end of the sixth trumpet and second woe, the same point as at the end of chapter 9. As announced by the strong angel in chapter 10, we are again "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound" (10:7).The seventh angel sounds and appropriate worship beginsWith the sounding of the seventh trumpet, another worship service begins in heaven. This fourth, in a series of seven worship services, celebrates the fact that Christ now reigns on earth as in heaven. Notice that the threefold formula used to describe God previously as “the One who is, and who was and who is to come” (1:4, 8; 4:8) now omits “who is to come.” This is replaced by worship that recognizes the now present Lord who reigns. (This change is true also in the worship during the bowl judgments (16:5).) The prayer taught by Jesus to His disciples, “Your kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven” is now unfolding (Matt. 6:10). The worshippers specifically celebrate all the consequences that attend the reign of Christ on earth: (1) dead to be judged; (2) reward of bond-servants; and (3) destroy those who destroy the earth.The very nature of these comments (11:15-18) indicates that chapters 12 and 13 cannot chronologically follow the seventh trumpet. As previously noted, these chapters will add important details about events and conditions that lead up to the seventh trumpet. In chapter 14, we will begin to see the results of the seventh trumpet unfold.The Temple and the Ark of the CovenantOne last result of the seventh trumpet is noted: "The temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the Ark of the Covenant appeared in His temple" (11:19). The opening of the temple is a picture of restored fellowship with God, although no one is able to enter the temple until the bowls of wrath are later poured out (15:5, 8). The appearance of the Ark of the Covenant, wherein were found the promises of God, is a reminder that our fellowship with God is a function of His realized promises.

 

[samy]

Kriss, It's not speculation, it's obedience to the definitions in context. It says their body upon the street of the great city. The words "the great city" are defined in Revelation by an angel of God for John so he (and we) will not jump to conclusions. The angel defines the great city, NOT me! The angel says that the the blood of all who have been slain on the earth is to be found in it--that simply cannot be Jerusaslem. And Jerusalem is not spiritual Sodom and Egypt, but Babylon, as the chief example, and the cities of the world are! samy

 

[Christina]

Your first paragraph is wrong to start with and yes it is is goes against scripture Revelation 11:1 "And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God,"This "reed" John was given, was not for making a measurement. The reed was a "scepter"; a rod not for building something, but for destruction. The destruction is for the tearing down of the temple of God, the altar, and all of them that worship within. The reason for this destruction is because at this time the Antichrist will be sitting on the throne of God in the temple, making sacrifice to himself, and the people of the world will believe he is God.This is the time of the "abomination by the desolator", spoken of in Daniel 9:27, and at that time, Satan, the "son of perdition" will be revealed in the temple at Jerusalem, as recorded in II Thessalonians 2:2-4.II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."Revelation 11:3 "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

 

[Christina]

Christ was crusified in Jerusalem the Antichrist rules from Jerusalem the aboination of desolation takes place on the temple mt in Jerusalem this is jerusalem periodZec 4:11 ¶ Then answered I, and said unto him, What [are] these two olive trees upon the right [side] of the candlestick and upon the left [side] thereof? This is the answer to the question who are the two olive trees that stand on each side of candlestick which are the churchs as we are told these are obviously not the same things the olive trees stand beside the candlesticks(churches that combined with all other evendince makes your conclusion without support.There is no argument here scripture just doesnt support your conclusion.God says he will send Elijah now if you do not want to take scripture as the truth your choice but you'll never convince meI have one rule prove me wrong in scripture not interpetations of scripture I will not ignore scripture to make some idea fit and yours doesnt fit. Im done discussing it

 

[samy]

Kriss, I didn't write Revelation 11:1 where it says "rise and measure" John did. And i explained it from 2 Samuel 8:2 where a King, David measured a defeated group of people. did you read it? It was a line that separated a group of people from those who died. And I completly agree that it is an act of the Antichrist--the abomination of desoloation that is the act of measuring!!! We finally agree on something! samy

 

[Christina]

And zac 4:11 says they are not the same and now where does scripture say they are only in your interpetation thats the problem

 

[samy]

I don't suppose you've noticed that the two witnesses are the same as the 144,000? Notice now that the two witnesses (two churches of Philadelphia and Smyrna--remember, Jewish converts) are called up from the dead into the presence of the Lord, the first of any in the book of Revelation. Then in chapter 14 we see the 144,000, not mentioned as such again, now with the Lord and they are referred to as "firstfruits" of the harvest that then continues. The book of Revelation tells us about the harvest of the Lord's saints, His churches. The Jews first, and then the gentiles. The two distinct groups are seen throughout the book: chapters 2-3 the five gentile churches that are in trouble, the two Jewish churches that are not; chapter 7, the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel marked for some special purpose, the great multitude from the nations; chapter 11, those who worship at the altar, Jews, the two witnesses, two churches again protected for their ministry during the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation, and gentiles, the outer court, cast out; chapter 12, the woman, believing Israel, who gives birth to the son, is united as one in belief in Christ with her brethren (see Micah 4:10-5:4), and then protected from the dragon, while the gentiles are then pursued, those who also "hold the testimony of Jesus;" chapter 14-15, 144,000 on Mt Zion with the Lamb after their being harvested first, then chapter 15, those who had come off victorios from the beast...singing..."all the nations will come and worship" (reciting God's fulfilled promised to them). Really too much for you to digest now but think about it. Don't just knee jerk the answer. If you fail to see the symetry of the book, you will find yourself asking, "I wonder what the 144,000 did between chapter 7 and 14? How do the 144,000 and the two witnesses work out together? there doesn't seem to be any mention of any interplay between the two. Why does the book seem so fragmented? It is not fragmented. it is a grand, marvelous book. It tells a smooth story about a period of time that focuses on a time 3 1/2 years long. It's theme is "worship God" and its subject is "the revelation of Jesus Christ." samy

 

[seekerntruth]

(kriss;45720)
Christ was crusified in Jerusalem the Antichrist rules from Jerusalem the aboination of desolation takes place on the temple mt in Jerusalem this is jerusalem periodZec 4:11 ¶ Then answered I, and said unto him, What [are] these two olive trees upon the right [side] of the candlestick and upon the left [side] thereof? This is the answer to the question who are the two olive trees that stand on each side of candlestick which are the churchs as we are told these are obviously not the same things the olive trees stand beside the candlesticks(churches that combined with all other evendince makes your conclusion without support.There is no argument here scripture just doesnt support your conclusion.God says he will send Elijah now if you do not want to take scripture as the truth your choice but you'll never convince meI have one rule prove me wrong in scripture not interpetations of scripture I will not ignore scripture to make some idea fit and yours doesnt fit. Im done discussing it
Here's a thought..The two olive trees represent the House of Judah and the House of Israel....Judah gives us the LawIsrael the ProphetsThus, one witness from the House of Judah represents the Law,while the witness from the House of Israel represents the Prophets...Of course, they are not actually Moses and Elijah, but two modern day Hebrew Prophets of God that represent both OT prophets...snt

 

[Unorthodox Christian]

(crooner;45060)
The two witnesses are the church and Jesus!!!!!!!!!!
Wrong it's Moses and Elijah, Compare what Moses did, Cause water to turn into Blood, do Miracles.Elijah, Shut up the Heavens, speak the Word to control Nature.These are what the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 Do.

 

[HammerStone]

Denver, Here is where hermeneutics is so important in Revelation. The text does not say "Jerusalem." It says, "upon the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt where also their Lord was crucified."
Pure nonsense. There is only one placed where our Lord was crucified, and if you want to play Scripture Lawyer with this mess that Jesus was crucified on a hill outside of the city I the Bible says and say that is somehow different once again falls in on itself.I'm not into the habit of attacking people's understanding of the English, but here again what is the subject?Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
The great city (noun) is spiritually called (adv. verb). The city is very real.That's why New Jerusalem comes to us in Revelation 21.