The Two Witnesses

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RaddSpencer

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Pure nonsense. There is only one placed where our Lord was crucified, and if you want to play Scripture Lawyer with this mess that Jesus was crucified on a hill outside of the city I the Bible says and say that is somehow different once again falls in on itself.
Scripture Lawyer eh? HmmmmmmmmmmmmmmMaybe Phoenix Wright can be a Scripture Lawyer.... hmmmmm[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFldBVWFgWo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFldBVWFgWo[/url]
 

samy

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(Name calling in posts about the Bible seems really like something off the playground.) If John meant Jerusalem, why didn't he simply write Jerusalem?
 

Christina

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I could ask the same if he didnt mean Jerusalem why did he bother to say where thelord was crusified? It was concidered Jerusalem just because you step 20 ft outside the gate you steped outside the gate to go to the bathroom doesnt mean it wasnt Jerusalem. We have city landfills on the outskirits of our towns doesnt mean they are not our city landfills. The burden of proof falls on you as you have nothing to back you up You can still walk the path in old Jerusalem its a short distance so prove it wasnt what was meantit was literally walking distance The Via Dolorosa, the road Jesus walked from the place of Pontius Pilate’s sentencing to Golgotha, means “way of sorrows.” The beautiful hymn that begins “On a hill far away...” has led many to picture this last road as a pastoral, quiet scene, a path wending its way, perhaps among old olive trees, up a mountain to where crosses stand starkly against the sky. Walking the real street in Old Jerusalem that bears the name “Via Dolorosa” means putting aside these images, but hopefully replacing them with other, even more meaningful ones that will bring you closer to moments you will always hold precious. You’ll find the street can be noisy – with venders vying for your attention calling out their wares. Old stone buildings rise up on either side, and instead of a tree-lined country lane, seemingly endless stone steps ascend through the city. Christian visitors are sometimes startled to realize that this is not new; in fact, it is exactly what Jesus would have seen that Friday. It was Passover week; Jerusalem was bursting at the seams with pilgrims. Many would have looked away for fear of the Romans. Indeed, the Romans forced Simon of Cyrene to carry the cross (Mark 15:21). For as long as Christians have been coming to the Holy City, they have walked the last path of Jesus. At least for the last 1,000 years, it is the same path visitors walk today. As time went on, the sacred stories became sacred landmarks – the Stations of the Cross. There are fourteen stations. The first is the Praetorium, where Pilate condemned Jesus and Jesus took up the cross (Mark 15:15). A convent now stands over a small part of this huge fortress. In its basement are ancient flagstones, by tradition known as the Gabata (John 19:13), or stone pavement. Beneath the pavement is a gigantic water cistern built by Herod the Great, which might have quenched the thirst of the Roman soldiers who taunted Jesus (Matt. 27: 27-31). Emerging from the antiquities, about 20 feet below the present road, visitors find the Stations of the Cross modestly marked. When the Jerusalem Municipality found ancient stones during maintenance work some years ago, they repaved the present Via Dolorosa with them - the better to show the sacred sites to Christian visitors. Past the Praetorium is station three, where Jesus fell with the cross; tradition says this event recurred, and it is marked by stations two more times. The fourth station is where Simon took up the cross. Each station and its story: Jesus meets Mary, a noble woman of Jerusalem wipes the sweat from Jesus’ brow; Jesus speaks to the women of Jerusalem (Luke 23:27-30), and onward to the last stations the crucifixion and burial, located within the ancient Church of the Holy Sepulcher. The Via Dolorosa’s setting despite – or because – of its present-day atmosphere, imparts an authentic sense of Jerusalem as Jesus experienced the city in those last hours. Luke Chapter 23 26 And as they led him away, they seized one Simon of Cyrene, who was coming in from the country, and laid on him the cross, to carry it behind Jesus. 27 And there followed him a great multitude of the people, and of women who bewailed and lamented him. 28 But Jesus turning to them said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never gave suck!’ 30 Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us’; and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’ 31 For if they do this when the wood is green, what will happen when it is dry?” 32 Two others also, who were criminals, were led away to be put to death with him. 33 And when they came to the place which is called The Skull, there they crucified him, and the criminals, one on the right and one on the left. The Revised Standard Version, (New York: Oxford University
 

samy

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In chapter 18 of Rev God is condemning a system, a way of life, that his people can becomecome caught up in. it is The Great City, The harlot, in which can be found the blood of all those slain on the earth (last line of chapter 18). God calls for his people to come out of her. Surely you can see that we do not all live in Jerusalem. The great city is not Jerusalem but it was spiritually Sodom, Egypt and wherever men have been slain. Jerusalem is spiritually the holy city. samy
 

HammerStone

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(Name calling in posts about the Bible seems really like something off the playground.) If John meant Jerusalem, why didn't he simply write Jerusalem?
Finally, a response!So samy, do you just always ignore posts when you cannot explain something away and diverst the subject? I guess the crusade to find and accuse the staff here and myself takes up most of your time now?Funny how you chide me publicly, but carry out the very same in private.
In chapter 18 of Rev God is condemning a system, a way of life, that his people can becomecome caught up in. it is The Great City, The harlot, in which can be found the blood of all those slain on the earth (last line of chapter 18). God calls for his people to come out of her. Surely you can see that we do not all live in Jerusalem. The great city is not Jerusalem but it was spiritually Sodom, Egypt and wherever men have been slain. Jerusalem is spiritually the holy city. samy
Demonstrate it Scripturally, not samy's words.
 

samy

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What Denver, you were not able to read REV 18. or have you forgotten how to open your Bible? Chaptero 18 describes buying and selling everything--including humans. Money is above every thing. What you didn't notice? Too blinded by something else you already believe? samy
 

Christina

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yes theres a spitual Babylon but thats not what you said you said the two wittness are the two churches and do not lay dead in Jerusalem even though scripture says they do
 

HammerStone

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What Denver, you were not able to read REV 18. or have you forgotten how to open your Bible? Chaptero 18 describes buying and selling everything--including humans. Money is above every thing. What you didn't notice? Too blinded by something else you already believe? samy
Well, like everyone else here, I was under the impression we were talking about this verse:Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Let's actuall let Scripture do the talking.Ezekiel 16:2-3
Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.
I simply wanted to establish the subject here. Please feel free - and I encourage it - to read this chapter in context. For space's sake, let's cut to where the action is.Ezekiel 16:16
Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger.
The other prophets have more to say.Isaiah 1:1
The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
Isaiah 1:9-10
Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
 

samy

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WE have been examining the great city in 11:8 as defined in Rev 18, esp verse 24. How is it that the blood of all who have been slain is in Jerusalem? samy
 

Christina

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That isnt what you said nor what we discussing but sense you cant disprove scripture you will do as others before you change the subject in midstream to avoid admitting you are wrong pretty typical You said Christ was not crusified in Jerusalem So the city cant be Jerusalem those were your words In fact little you have said in this post is Biblical even though scripture says the two candlesticks are not the two wittness's you insist you know betterAnd their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
 

whirlwind

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That isnt what you said nor what we discussing but sense you cant disprove scripture you will do as others before you change the subject in midstream to avoid admitting you are wrong pretty typical You said Christ was not crusified in Jerusalem So the city cant be Jerusalem those were your words In fact little you have said in this post is Biblical even though scripture says the two candlesticks are not the two wittness's you insist you know betterAnd their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Wow....what a subject you guys are discussing. I have been looking into the "two witnesses" on another forum and will relay who I believe they are.
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There are Two Witnesses. ONE of those two witnesses is/are the two candlesticks. Who are the two candlesticks? Christ tells us that they are His two churches.....probably Smyrna and Philadelphia, the only two He approved of....Who is the other witness?The other witness (the second one of the two) is/are the "two olive trees." Who are they? Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, "what are these TWO OLIVE TREES upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof? (14) Then said he, "These are the TWO ANOINTED ONES, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."So, the Two Olive Trees are also the Two Anointed Ones...Then we are told:Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry and shall send gifts one to another; because these TWO PROPHETS tormented them that dwelt on the earth.The Two Olive Trees are the Two Anointed Ones and they are the Two Prophets.An olive tree is a believer in Christ. An anointed one is a consecrated person as Christ was the anointed Messiah, David was anointed King and others can be anointed to teach, etc. What are they anointed with...olive oil! A prophet is an inspired person (man or woman). So....one of the two witnesses, (the two olive trees) will be believers that have been consecrated for a purpose - to witness and they do this because they are divinely inspired by God.But still....are they a group as the other witness is (the churches) or are they two individuals? The candlesticks are churches and churches are people (plural). An olive tree is a person and is singular. He said there are two olive trees. He didn't say....."these are the olive trees and the two candlesticks" but said..."these are the two olive trees," and that suggests two people, not two forests of olive trees.The two candlesticks (churches) are His witnesses too but they are not designated as THE Two Prophets or THE Two Anointed Ones. It appears they are all to witness and yet their fate is different.Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto My Two Witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (4) These are the Two Olive Trees and the Two Candlesticks, standing before the God of the earth. Both of the two witnesses will prophesy during that time.7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and KILL THEM. Here, the fate of the two witnesses parts. This, to me, is the reason they were introduced to us as separate entities as His two witnesses - olive trees and candlesticks.8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (10) And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because THESE TWO PROPHETS tormented them that dwelt on the earth. To me, verses 7-10 are telling us that it is the two olive trees (two anointed ones, two prophets) that are killed after their testimony. What of the two candlesticks/churches? Are they also killed?Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. (13) And it shall turn to you for a testimony. These are God's elect being delivered for their witness, for their testimony.14. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: (15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. The Holy Spirit will speak through us and to premeditate what We will say or to not allow the Holy Spirit to use us would be to commit the unforgiveable sin [Lk.12:8-12]16. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. Death is one of Satan's names...we will be put before him. We must remember that He "will never leave thee nor forsake thee." Parents and friends will deliver us to him because they will believe he is Christ and they want him to save us.17. And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake. (18) But there shall NOT AN HAIR OF YOUR HEAD PERISH.So....this tells me that One of the Two witnesses is/are the two churches (candlesticks) and the other ONE of the two witnesses is/are the two olive trees/two anointed ones/two prophets.At least....that's is who I believe the "Two" witnesses are.
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........Whirlwind
 

Christina

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I luv ya Whirlwind but I think you have two many wittness's
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The two annointed prophets are called the two wittness' two olive trees that will be sent by God I do believe they are from these two churchs but are not the churches. Zac4:11 Those of us here on earth that follow the two wittness's sent become part of these two churchs spirtually and will become wittness's for the Lord but they are talked about other places such as Mark 13/Rev2I think its a little confusing to squeeze them into this particular subject of the two olive trees (wittness's). for the exact reason you said they suffer a differnt fate.I dont disagree with you its just IMHO I dont see them as the subject here.
 

samy

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4 "These [two witnesses] are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. " The New American Standard Bible. La Habra, CA : The Lockman Foundation, 1986, S. Re 11:4The two witnesses are not in addition to the two olive trees and two lampstands, they are one and the same as them. Whirlwind, good to see the reading and thinking. samy
 

whirlwind

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LOL there's an old guy on myspace who's claiming he and his wife are the two witnesses....http://www.myspace.com/ronaldweinland
There are lots of folks out there claiming to be one of the witnesses. All believers are to be A witness but.....that doesn't make us one of THE two witnesses (two prophets that will be killed). :naughty:I do wonder if they walk the earth now. Are we in those days? :pray:.......Whirlwind
 

koulourakia_girl

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There are lots of folks out there claiming to be one of the witnesses. All believers are to be A witness but.....that doesn't make us one of THE two witnesses (two prophets that will be killed). :naughty:I do wonder if they walk the earth now. Are we in those days? :pray:.......Whirlwind
Indeed there are, this guy just struck me as really bizarre...Are we in those days? I truly believe we are in the 'beginning of sorrows'....so much is falling into place - just waiting for those key events to happen to open the Tribulation - and we can see things shaping up each and every day. we are living in prophetic times!
 

whirlwind

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I luv ya Whirlwind but I think you have two many wittness's
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The two annointed prophets are called the two wittness' two olive trees that will be sent by God I do believe they are from these two churchs but are not the churches. Zac4:11 Those of us here on earth that follow the two wittness's sent become part of these two churchs spirtually and will become wittness's for the Lord but they are talked about other places such as Mark 13/Rev2I think its a little confusing to squeeze them into this particular subject of the two olive trees (wittness's). for the exact reason you said they suffer a differnt fate.I dont disagree with you its just IMHO I dont see them as the subject here.
Good morning Kriss....I also saw the "two" witnesses as being just two folks but someone pointed out a few scriptures that caused me to rethink it. Their reasoning places each of the two witnesses as being two separate great groups (they term them "corporate" groups) of people. Their thought is that ALL the witnesses will prophesy and be killed in the end of days. :eek: I balked at that because our Father tells us differently. However....I do agree now that there are more than just two people being discussed....but not all will meet the same fate.Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto MY TWO WITNESSES, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."4. These are the TWO OLIVE TREES and the TWO CANDLESTICKS, standing before the God of the earth.I first understood that scripture as the witness being both an olive tree and a candlestick and that there were two of them....just as someone saying we were both a human and a female. But then I really looked into the scriptures explaining who they were:Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden CANDLESTICKS. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven CANDLESTICKS which thou sawest are the seven CHURCHES.So, that explained part of the mystery. Candlesticks means churches. In [Rev.1:20] there were seven but we are told He only approved of two of them. In [Rev.11:4] we are told that the witness is a candlestick so we know that at least one of the witnesses is a church/churches.Who are the churches? That is us :angel9:. We are the believers, we are His children...we are His elect, the zadok that take His Word forward. We are one of the two witnesses....ALL of us. But still....no mention of the "olive trees" being churches too.He explained who the candlesticks were - churches and that they were part of the two witnesses but what of the olive trees? I believe the following scripture mentions the candlesticks as well as the olive trees:Zechariah 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with THOSE SEVEN; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth." (11) Then answered I, and said unto him, "What are these TWO OLIVE TREES upon the right side of the CANDLESTICK and upon the left side thereof? (14) Then said he, "These are the TWO ANOINTED ONES, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."THE Candlestick there is the Lord. We, as His churches, are part of Him and He is The Church, or The Candlestick. Standing beside Him, one on the left and one on the right, are Two Olive Trees which He refers to as the Two Anointed Ones. The candlesticks (plural) are the churches but these two olive trees appear to me to be two individual "anointed ONES."I'm not certain about the "seven" that are the "eyes of the Lord" and "run to and fro though the whole earth." Are they the "seven angels of the seven churches" in [Rev.1:20] or does the figure represent the "seven thousand" of God's elect? Or, does it represent both?It is interesting to note that the two olive trees are standing beside the Lord while the others are going to and fro. The Lord is in heaven so do the olive trees stand beside Him now? Are they Moses and Elijah and are they waiting for their time on earth? Has that time already come about? Are they here now? One of the duties of the two olive trees is to "empty the golden oil out of themselves."[Zech. 4:12] When do they do that, how do they do that and to whom do they do that? I believe that is accomplished in the end of days when they teach God's elect in the wilderness. The wilderness.....is it literal or figurative and when and where will that be and how is the golden oil emptied? So, to me, the Two Witnesses are separated into two different camps. One of the witnesses are His churches....us. The other of the two witnesses are the two olive trees...the two prophets/two anointed ones.Lots to consider.....Whirlwind
 

samy

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The two witnesses bring the message of the cross and the message of the throne, and how the two messages are two facits of the same messsage. At the cross of Jesus, where we see the Lamb of God dying for sin, we see the sign, "king of the Jews." A dying Lamb is the king. In the heavenly scene (Rev 4-5) we see the throne of God, and in the center of the throne, we see a Lamb "standing in that he is slain." A dying lamb is at the heart/center of God's rule. A lamb is the king. The Lion of the tribe of Judah (5:5) has the heart of a Lamb, rules by the heart of the Lamb. The witness of Smyrna is the witness of suffering, and the one who suffered comforts and encourages them. The witness of Philadelphia is the witness of reigning, and the One who will reign encourages them. One witnesses the work of the great high priest, the other the work of the great king. This was the symbolism presented by the two olive trees of Zechariah. samy
 

whirlwind

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The two witnesses bring the message of the cross and the message of the throne, and how the two messages are two facits of the same messsage. At the cross of Jesus, where we see the Lamb of God dying for sin, we see the sign, "king of the Jews." A dying Lamb is the king. In the heavenly scene (Rev 4-5) we see the throne of God, and in the center of the throne, we see a Lamb "standing in that he is slain." A dying lamb is at the heart/center of God's rule. A lamb is the king. The Lion of the tribe of Judah (5:5) has the heart of a Lamb, rules by the heart of the Lamb. The witness of Smyrna is the witness of suffering, and the one who suffered comforts and encourages them. The witness of Philadelphia is the witness of reigning, and the One who will reign encourages them. One witnesses the work of the great high priest, the other the work of the great king. This was the symbolism presented by the two olive trees of Zechariah. samy
Hello Samy, The witnesses do bring the message of the cross. My personal thought is you are making too much symbolic when it is, or will be, quite literal.There are two olive trees and there are candlesticks - churches. As believers we are all part of the churches. All of us witness the message of the cross. :shepard:At the end of days some of us will be taken before Satan himself...of course then it is not us that speak but the Holy Spirit. ......Whirlwind......Whirlwind
 

Christina

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So, to me, the Two Witnesses are separated into two different camps. One of the witnesses are His churches....us. The other of the two witnesses are the two olive trees...the two prophets/two anointed ones.(quote)yes I agree with this whirlwind