The unfaithful servant

[Prentis]

Who does Paul say were "cut (broken) off"? Doesn't Paul say all of Israel will be saved?

You seem to be missing the point Prentis. Your not applying the whole premise here by using only part of it, the "cutting off" and then ignoring the "grafting back in" which is part of the same context. To apply one without the other is to ignore context and misapply.

Read further down, verse 32, "for God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone". Now whatever meaning you apply to the "cutting off" must not conflict with verse 32 to keep things within the proper context.

As I've explained, I honestly see the mistake as being in the understanding of all Israel will be saved.

Israel is Jew and Gentile in Christ, Paul is saying this to say that now the gentiles have been grafted in, but the Jews will not be rejected forever, a remnant will also be grafted back in. I say remnant because that's how it always is.

God having mercy on all does not mean all make it in. It means he delays judgment in hope that they will repent... But the gate is still narrow, and there are still few who find the way.

The Pharisees who were cut off, are they grafted back in, all of them, even if they don't repent? Of course not. Those who turn to him.

For what you're saying to work, you'd have to believe in universalism.

 

[jiggyfly]

As I've explained, I honestly see the mistake as being in the understanding of all Israel will be saved.

Israel is Jew and Gentile in Christ, Paul is saying this to say that now the gentiles have been grafted in, but the Jews will not be rejected forever, a remnant will also be grafted back in. I say remnant because that's how it always is.

God having mercy on all does not mean all make it in. It means he delays judgment in hope that they will repent... But the gate is still narrow, and there are still few who find the way.

The Pharisees who were cut off, are they grafted back in, all of them, even if they don't repent? Of course not. Those who turn to him.

For what you're saying to work, you'd have to believe in universalism.

Yes indeed, those who turn to Him and we know by the scriptures that eventually all do unless of course one ignores the scriptures that speak of every knee bowing, the reconciliation of all things, Jesus the savior of all, the restoration of all things and God being all and in all.

 

[Prentis]

It would be a mistake to use those scriptures to somehow deny the scriptures that speak of destruction, condemnation, etc. It is said of Judas that it would be better if he would never of been born. That isn't just 'Oh he made some mistakes, he will be reconciled'. Man can fall under the same condemnation as the devil.

God will indeed all in all. That doesn't negate that those who are wicked, and end thus, will taste the second death, and that the unfaithful servant will go to eternal shame, cast into outer darkness. God will indeed be all in all, he will destroy what is not of him, and will be the life of those who remain, and those who are a shame to his name will bow the knee.

The warnings are real.

 

[jiggyfly]

It would be a mistake to use those scriptures to somehow deny the scriptures that speak of destruction, condemnation, etc. It is said of Judas that it would be better if he would never of been born. That isn't just 'Oh he made some mistakes, he will be reconciled'. Man can fall under the same condemnation as the devil.

God will indeed all in all. That doesn't negate that those who are wicked, and end thus, will taste the second death, and that the unfaithful servant will go to eternal shame, cast into outer darkness. God will indeed be all in all, he will destroy what is not of him, and will be the life of those who remain, and those who are a shame to his name will bow the knee.

The warnings are real.

If God is going to destroy what is not of Him then how can anyone be shamed forever? Have you ever looked up the Hebrew and Greek texts before Prentis?

As far as bowing the knee, if you were to continue reading it doesn't stop at there but continues with "every tongue will confess allegiance to Me".

 

[Prentis]

Yes. Sometimes it speaks of second death, sometimes of shame and glory. It also speaks of two ressurections and two judgment. I understand it like this. The wicked, who love neither God nor man, and do not know God, are destroyed. The unfaithful servants, who claim to love God, but do not love their brothers, are brought to eternal shame.

To pledge allegiance does not imply being glorified, it means submitted. He rules with a rod of iron.

 

[jiggyfly]

Yes. Sometimes it speaks of second death, sometimes of shame and glory. It also speaks of two ressurections and two judgment. I understand it like this. The wicked, who love neither God nor man, and do not know God, are destroyed. The unfaithful servants, who claim to love God, but do not love their brothers, are brought to eternal shame.

To pledge allegiance does not imply being glorified, it means submitted. He rules with a rod of iron.

Define what you mean by eternal shame?

 

[Prentis]

Eternal shame is dishonor. It is outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[jiggyfly]

Eternal shame is dishonor. It is outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Is it forever???

 

[Prentis]

[sup]2[/sup] Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

We have this life, and by our deeds in it we will be judged. Can there be mercy after? I'm not ruling that out completely. But we are warned that this life is what we will be judged by.

 

[jiggyfly]

To pledge allegiance does not imply being glorified, it means submitted. He rules with a rod of iron.

Did you look at the context rather than just try to make it fit your paradigm?

Doesn't submitted indicate obedience?

 

[Prentis]

When the presence of the Lord is their, all men do indeed obey. Does that mean they are glorified? Is a dog great because he obeys, or does he obey because the Master has authority.

We misunderstand when we think people always obey out of love. When he rules with a rod of iron, all obey, some simply because anything else means the rod of iron. The Bible speaks of those who will rise to eternal shame. How can we ignore this unless we have made our own scheme with the rest of scriptures that claims all will be received to glory?

 

[jiggyfly]

When the presence of the Lord is their, all men do indeed obey. Does that mean they are glorified? Is a dog great because he obeys, or does he obey because the Master has authority.

We misunderstand when we think people always obey out of love. When he rules with a rod of iron, all obey, some simply because anything else means the rod of iron. The Bible speaks of those who will rise to eternal shame. How can we ignore this unless we have made our own scheme with the rest of scriptures that claims all will be received to glory?

Have you ever done a word study on olam, aion and aionios?

Is it possible to misinterpret the scriptures?

Show me the mention of force in scriptures referencing every knee bowing and tongue confessing.

 

[Prentis]

Yes, it is possible to misinterpret scriptures. I don't mean to say that I have it all figured out brother, and I could be wrong on something.

But the whole of scriptures does show us that some will go to shame. Why would we deny this? Dan. 12:2 'everlasting contempt'

We cannot draw these kind of conclusions pick-pocketing on one verse, but we have to look at the whole.

Paul talks about dishonor and honor. Jesus speaks of the unfaithful servant. We are told of two ressurections and two judgments, out of each coming some with reward and some with loss.

On what do you base that all will be given glory when the Lord comes back? Most of all, how many verses say not all will!

 

[Prentis]

Might I add this...

[sup]6[/sup]Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
[sup]7[/sup]Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
[sup]8[/sup]That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Romans 9)

All Israel shall be saved has to be understood with this. God saves all those who are in him and of faith. Paul is using it with the understanding that some are Jews, and some Gentiles. He is not saying all Jews will be saved. He is saying that God has, yes, cut off the Jews to graft in SOME Gentiles, and SOME Jews will be grafted in also, making all Israel saved.

Paul is actually fighting antisemitism, and the idea all Jews in every way will, after the remnant, be rejected.

 

[Vengle]

Who does Paul say were "cut (broken) off"? Doesn't Paul say all of Israel will be saved?

You seem to be missing the point Prentis. Your not applying the whole premise here by using only part of it, the "cutting off" and then ignoring the "grafting back in" which is part of the same context. To apply one without the other is to ignore context and misapply.

Read further down, verse 32, "for God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone". Now whatever meaning you apply to the "cutting off" must not conflict with verse 32 to keep things within the proper context.

Take a slow deep breath and condition yourself to just think about all that I say here before you decide how to answer it jiggyfly. Don't let your mind jump ahead to what you think your defense will be because you have plenty of time for that after you follow the full flow of the thoughts I will present to you.

Sticking only to Romans 11: 13-14 notice that Paul was not thinking all would be saved, but only some of them:

Romans 11:13 "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them."

Remember why Paul said they fell:

11 "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."

Did Paul mean that they would all be provoked to jealousy and so repent? No, that is the same thing he talked about wanting to do in verses 13-14. And there he said it would only be some of them.

So then there other statements he made that you are reading more into than is there. And to lay the groundwork to discuss them lets first look through the the context of chapters 9 and 10 to see what we can learn about Paul's expectation concerning the saving of all Israel, whether it would be all or just some as we saw in verses 13-14.

Romans 10:1 "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

Paul was a man of such strong faith that he rejoiced in his trials and tribulations on behalf of Christ and the brethern in Christ. If his fleshly brothers who had been blinded were suffering for the cause of Christ and would yet be saved Paul would have rejoiced in that also. It would have been a lack of faith to know they would eventually be unblinded and then yet to lament them as he did here, as follows:

Romans 9:1 "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh"
But Paul knew this concerning the some he hoped to save, as follows:

Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Paul was trying to get the idea out of the minds of the gentiles that God had accursed the entire race for the death of Christ. That is because Paul was preparing their hearts and their minds to be the preachers that would go to his fellow Jews and do as he said at Romans 11:14 "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them."

And we see that very strong in chapter 10 of Romans:

Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."
He was then and there preparing the preachers to fulfill that prophecy concerning provoking them to jealousy.

You have the right interpretation of Romans 11:32 as I think I read of your post. They are saved as we are saved. Romans 11:32 is almost a shadow of Galatians 3:22. they both are saying essentially the same thing, especially when you know the word they does not actually appear in the original language text of Romans 11:32.

Because this is getting long i will talk about the rest of chapter 11 later showing how these are just things Paul was saying could happen if the Gentiles failed to appreciate the purpose of the grace shown them.

And when he says that in that manner all Israel will be saved it should be understood as per what he said at Romans 9:6-8, "all" as in all who really are the elect of Israel by faith.

There are places in Paul's writings where we can go that he discusses sowing that small seed of faith to the remnant that were yet out there among the Jewish population, even as there were yet Gentiles needing to have that seed of faith yet sown.

 

[jiggyfly]

Yes, it is possible to misinterpret scriptures. I don't mean to say that I have it all figured out brother, and I could be wrong on something.

But the whole of scriptures does show us that some will go to shame. Why would we deny this? Dan. 12:2 'everlasting contempt'

We cannot draw these kind of conclusions pick-pocketing on one verse, but we have to look at the whole.

Paul talks about dishonor and honor. Jesus speaks of the unfaithful servant. We are told of two ressurections and two judgments, out of each coming some with reward and some with loss.

On what do you base that all will be given glory when the Lord comes back? Most of all, how many verses say not all will!

Do a study on olam, aion and aionios and we will go from there.

 

[Vengle]

Yes, it is necessary to fine tune our understanding of those three words. Otherwise we are free to have all sorts of wild ideas.

There is one thing that irritates me about translation; the words were diferent words (for example in the Greek) for a reason, and then we use a single word to translate them.

That causes a missing of the full understanding.

Hell is a subject where that is particularly a problem.

 

[veteran]

Take a slow deep breath and condition yourself to just think about all that I say here before you decide how to answer it jiggyfly. Don't let your mind jump ahead to what you think your defense will be because you have plenty of time for that after you follow the full flow of the thoughts I will present to you.

Sticking only to Romans 11: 13-14 notice that Paul was not thinking all would be saved, but only some of them:

Romans 11:13 "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them."

Remember why Paul said they fell:

11 "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."

Did Paul mean that they would all be provoked to jealousy and so repent? No, that is the same thing he talked about wanting to do in verses 13-14. And there he said it would only be some of them.

So then there other statements he made that you are reading more into than is there. And to lay the groundwork to discuss them lets first look through the the context of chapters 9 and 10 to see what we can learn about Paul's expectation concerning the saving of all Israel, whether it would be all or just some as we saw in verses 13-14.

Romans 10:1 "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

Paul was a man of such strong faith that he rejoiced in his trials and tribulations on behalf of Christ and the brethern in Christ. If his fleshly brothers who had been blinded were suffering for the cause of Christ and would yet be saved Paul would have rejoiced in that also. It would have been a lack of faith to know they would eventually be unblinded and then yet to lament them as he did here, as follows:

Romans 9:1 "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh"
But Paul knew this concerning the some he hoped to save, as follows:

Romans 9:6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Paul was trying to get the idea out of the minds of the gentiles that God had accursed the entire race for the death of Christ. That is because Paul was preparing their hearts and their minds to be the preachers that would go to his fellow Jews and do as he said at Romans 11:14 "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them."

And we see that very strong in chapter 10 of Romans:

Romans 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."
He was then and there preparing the preachers to fulfill that prophecy concerning provoking them to jealousy.

You have the right interpretation of Romans 11:32 as I think I read of your post. They are saved as we are saved. Romans 11:32 is almost a shadow of Galatians 3:22. they both are saying essentially the same thing, especially when you know the word they does not actually appear in the original language text of Romans 11:32.

Because this is getting long i will talk about the rest of chapter 11 later showing how these are just things Paul was saying could happen if the Gentiles failed to appreciate the purpose of the grace shown them.

And when he says that in that manner all Israel will be saved it should be understood as per what he said at Romans 9:6-8, "all" as in all who really are the elect of Israel by faith.

There are places in Paul's writings where we can go that he discusses sowing that small seed of faith to the remnant that were yet out there among the Jewish population, even as there were yet Gentiles needing to have that seed of faith yet sown.

But clearly per Romans 11:1-5, there IS something different going on, since Paul said God Himself has reserved a remnant of the seed of Israel according to the election of grace! Why do people keep leaving that out, or try to assign limitations to God's ability to do that??? It's really like questioning God when those do that.

Looking at Saul's (Apostle Paul) example, just WHAT was he doing on the way to Damascus before Christ struck him down and converted him? Saul had a letter of authority in his pocket to hunt down Christians, and bring them back to Jerusalem in chains to be tried. Saul even held the coats of those who stoned Christ's first martyr Stephen (Acts 7).

Our Lord Jesus Himself appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, CONVERTING him. That was an act of DIVINE INTERVENTION folks. What does that mean exactly?? It means Paul's CHOICE, HIS FREE WILL, was INFLUENCED. Do you get that?

How many here have had a DIVINE INTERVENTION like Saul did? I'm pretty secure in saying 'none' here on this Forum, otherwise Christ's Word would never be completed for us today, and we'd have to listen to yet another apostle made directly by Christ Jesus in addition to the rest of His Word!

Did Saul still have to make a choice to believe after Christ appeared to him? Yes, but can we say it was the same arena of choice that we made??? No, of course not! So just what was the difference with Paul's experience? Once again, DIRECT DIVINE INTERVENTION. Christ struck him down, and influenced Paul to follow Him. Simple as that.

The next question that should... naturally arise after that, is WHY did our Lord Jesus Divinely Intervene with Paul's choice, but NOT with others like us?? (Maybe some of you have... had some kind of spiritual experience to make you feel called by our Lord Jesus. I'm not talking about that though; Paul's case involved direct Divine Intervention which is different.)

Our Lord Jesus revealed why He did it in Acts 9:15, where He answered Ananias the priest, and told him that Saul (Paul) was a "chosen vessel" unto Him.

I really hate to bust bubbles here, but I'm forced to do because of The Word of The Living God. It is not a little thing to slight God's choosing of His elect that He Himself ordains for His purpose. He is The Potter and we are the clay, and He can choose to make chosen vessels of whom He will, and also vessels unto destruction of whom He will. His free Gift is enough, so we shouldn't be trying to put limitations upon His choosing vessels for His Salvation purpose to benefit the rest of us who have had no Divine Intervention like Apostle Paul did.

I even think it makes our Heavenly Father a bit angry for us to slight His choosing of His elect for His Purpose. It's like questioning His Authority.

 

[Vengle]

But clearly per Romans 11:1-5, there IS something different going on, since Paul said God Himself has reserved a remnant of the seed of Israel according to the election of grace! Why do people keep leaving that out, or try to assign limitations to God's ability to do that??? It's really like questioning God when those do that.

What is a remnant if it is not some? So then as Paul knew a remnant (some) would be saved why did he say, "that I might save some"?

Very simple. Paul did not know exactly which ones they would be and neither did anyone else. That is why Paul's entire goal was to lift up the Gentile preachers to preach to all Jews and thus incite to jealously all that would prove to be that prophesied remnant

It helps not to read more in than the context allows and this is what he had just finished telling us in chapter 10 just before he spoke the words you speak of.

As for you assessing this as trying to assign limitations to God's ability to accomplish the saving of a remnant you speak wrongly. God said he would do it by using the people who were not a nation but whom he now made a nation to incite them to jealousy. I assess it as God said it. I trust what he said.

And I laud God's use of us ignoble creatures out of his great love that we might benefit from his allowing us such responsibility.

Looking at Saul's (Apostle Paul) example, just WHAT was he doing on the way to Damascus before Christ struck him down and converted him? Saul had a letter of authority in his pocket to hunt down Christians, and bring them back to Jerusalem in chains to be tried. Saul even held the coats of those who stoned Christ's first martyr Stephen (Acts 7).

Paul told us why that was. Paul said it was because his heart was sincere and his love for God was true but he was blind. And God showed mercy toward him on that basis.

Our Lord Jesus Himself appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, CONVERTING him. That was an act of DIVINE INTERVENTION folks. What does that mean exactly?? It means Paul's CHOICE, HIS FREE WILL, was INFLUENCED. Do you get that?

Actually no it does not mean that. It means that God saw that was the true desire of Paul's heart and God helped him to attain it. And God does that for most of us just perhaps in less dramatic ways. But God saw in Paul the qualifications that he was looking for in one to preach to the Gentiles and also to clarify things to his fellow Jews scattered abroad. This due to Paul's upbringing and training. That was and is wisdom on God's part.

How many here have had a DIVINE INTERVENTION like Saul did? I'm pretty secure in saying 'none' here on this Forum, otherwise Christ's Word would never be completed for us today, and we'd have to listen to yet another apostle made directly by Christ Jesus in addition to the rest of His Word!

You are under estimating God just because he intervenes differently with each of us in accord with both his need and ours?

Did Saul still have to make a choice to believe after Christ appeared to him? Yes, but can we say it was the same arena of choice that we made??? No, of course not! So just what was the difference with Paul's experience? Once again, DIRECT DIVINE INTERVENTION. Christ struck him down, and influenced Paul to follow Him. Simple as that.

As I sad, Paul's faith had been demonstrated in other ways and God knew that Paul was meek. So he struck Paul down in a more dramatic way as Paul had the qualifications he was looking for in one to preach to the Gentiles. The scriptures say he dashes us all to pieces and then builds us up as he wills. Yet that is in keeping with what he finds the desire of our hearts to be.

The next question that should... naturally arise after that, is WHY did our Lord Jesus Divinely Intervene with Paul's choice, but NOT with others like us?? (Maybe some of you have... had some kind of spiritual experience to make you feel called by our Lord Jesus. I'm not talking about that though; Paul's case involved direct Divine Intervention which is different.)

That should be obvious by now.

Our Lord Jesus revealed why He did it in Acts 9:15, where He answered Ananias the priest, and told him that Saul (Paul) was a "chosen vessel" unto Him.

And the reason for that ought to be obvious by now.

I really hate to bust bubbles here, but I'm forced to do because of The Word of The Living God. It is not a little thing to slight God's choosing of His elect that He Himself ordains for His purpose. He is The Potter and we are the clay, and He can choose to make chosen vessels of whom He will, and also vessels unto destruction of whom He will. His free Gift is enough, so we shouldn't be trying to put limitations upon His choosing vessels for His Salvation purpose to benefit the rest of us who have had no Divine Intervention like Apostle Paul did.

Don't worry about my bubble because I do not have one. I am just repeating what the holy spirit and the scriptures tells me. I have learned much and have much more to learn and am not ashamed of it.

I even think it makes our Heavenly Father a bit angry for us to slight His choosing of His elect for His Purpose. It's like questioning His Authority.

There you go again.

Keep trying brother. We all have more to learn and we only delay it when we conclude our understanding is complete.

 

[Prentis]

The elect are those called by God. There are some both among the Jews and the Gentiles.

It says 'all Israel shall be saved', which means both Jew and Gentile in Christ shall be saved,
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:[sup]7[/sup]Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.[sup]8[/sup]That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

My understanding, considering this, is that the point that Paul is making is that God has not forsaken the Jews to take in the Gentiles, but will take in both Jews and Gentiles. All Jews? No, not all Gentiles either.