The United States of Evil

[[email protected]]

All of that is gross confusion, for 'the government' of the United States is... 'we the people', not the few bad apples that Socialists and Communists like to try and saddle the whole country with.

You seem to be a very sincere person. There's a lot of that in your words. There's a lot of that in these pages too, written by others. Devoted Christians who have given their all to Christ and to His perfection have made the mistake of assuming that our leaders and our country are just as perfect as Jesus is...as they themselves strive to be. Even as you do, I'm sure. When we see or hear evidence to the contrary regarding national policy or actual deeds, we ignore it or take it is as an assault upon our faith in Christ.

We were all taught certain things as children. Part of the pain of growing up in America is learning that some of the things we were taught simply aren't true. Not any more, anyway.

When I was a boy I was given a short wave radio. I used it to listen to radio Moscow. That was back in the late 60's when we were fighting in Viet Nam, when we had insinuated ourselves into somebody else's business; a civil war on another continent. I was a boy patriot. The flag of the USA hung on my bedroom wall like a poster from a rock star. I believed that we were always right and THEY, whoever 'they' were, were always wrong. It was like the games of Cowboys and Indians I used to play with my friends. The Indians were always the bad guys weren't they? Always. "The only good Indian is a dead Indian." Remember those words?

I stopped listening to radio Moscow when some of the things they said made more sense that what we were being told in the newspapers and on TV. When I started talking to people who actually came back from 'Nam and heard about what was going on my perceptions started to change. One or two of my friends even went back for another tour - and never returned. That flag on my wall started to not look so perfect. I threw the short wave radio in the garbage and stopped reading the newspapers. My country wasn't like that. I just knew it.

I enlisted in the military. Half way through a six year hitch I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ. The three years after that were full of miracles and deliverances and important lessons I'll never forget. Many times I would have died and the men with me if it hadn't been for Jesus' direct intervention. One of the biggest lessons I learned from my military years was that Jesus and the policy of the United States ISN'T THE SAME THING. I left the military, rejoined civilian life and learned another lesson. Christian Americans hadn't learned that lesson.

I also learned that the Indians weren't the bad guys I'd been taught they were. Roy Rogers, Gene Autry and John Wayne lied to me.

I GREW UP.

There's a lot of sincere folks in America these days, but personal sincerity and integrity doesn't equate to NATIONAL sincerity and integrity. The policies and actions of our leaders is not the same thing as the faithfulness of Christ toward us. Not by a long shot, a very long shot. Our leaders have debauched their responsibility. They have corrupted themselves and have destroyed our grand republic in the process. Romans 13 doesn't apply when leadership has itself denied lawfulness AND GOD. There is a higher law.

Ten years after 9/11, many Americans suspect or believe that the system is broken. They are still holding onto the fantasies of their youth because the truth is horrible, too horrible to swallow in one single gulp. Things just can't be THAT BAD!

We now live in a post constitutional America. Listen to the rhetoric all around us. Listen IF YOU DARE. People are talking about the constitution in a way they never have in living memory. Listen to the WAY they talk about it. Listen to the words. They talk about the constitution today the way we USED TO talk about cowboys and Indians, about the way it USED TO BE, about the way IT OUGHT TO BE. Buried in those words and in that attitude is the fear that it JUST ISN'T THAT WAY ANY MORE. Even our debates on that subject in these pages prove this to be true.

If it were not true would we even be talking about it? Who would have thought such a thing could happen - HERE?

The congress today is a puppet of the American financial cartel, the military-industrial complex (a term invented by President Dwight D. Eisenhower, not some pinko hippy), and international corporate special interests. When there is a decision to be made of benefit to our citizens, congressional debate is locked. When a bail out is requested, congress is johnny-on-the-spot to push it through. The classic definition of a type of government that acts that way is FASCISM. To be fair, it isn't the 1930's Spanish version, the Imperial Japanese version or even the German version. It's an American version, but it's still fascism. Do your homework. Look it up. Is there another explanation? Don't just sit there denying it and calling somebody names. DO SOMETHING.

The president is the puppet of the oligarchs, those few who make the real decisions. You know, the one percent. You can reject the notion and say it's the rantings of conspiracy theorists, but you can't ignore what is really happening and you can't ignore the words.

Do you remember what America was like before John Kennedy got one in the head? No conspiracies. Not a one. After the lies of the Warren Commission were published, conspiracies became a national pastime. The problem is that some of them turned out to be true. The broadway musical CAMELOT was a favorite of President and Mrs. Kennedy. His administration was fondly referred to by some as 'Camelot', but when Jack died Camelot died.

What does a man do when his childhood dreams die? What does a man do when he wakes up one day and the world has changed right before his eyes? Does he deny it? Does he keep saying "that's not the way it's supposed to be"? Does he resort to character assassination instead of facts?

OR DOES HE FIX IT?

No man can be saved unless he first admits he's a sinner.
Neither can our country can't be saved until we admit that something is terribly terribly wrong with it.
Do your homework. Educate yourself. Open your eyes.
Grow up.

 

[PropphecyStudent]

Hi THE Gypsy,

If we could not be certain about Scripture, then why have so many placed their lives on the line for this same? Is God a trickster, holding out a carrot which can never be realized? Is He simply playing with His creation because His is tantalized by our frustration and futility?

The fact is, God provides edification and encouragement in His Word and by His Spirit. And if we cannot receive then it's NOT because it's not there, but because of our hardness of hearts.


Matthew wrote:
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.


Jeremiah wrote:
‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’


And so we can KNOW and VALIDATE the hidden things of God through Scripture (confirmed by Scripture), as validated by history. The only distinction is whether we are willing to assail the gates to receive the kingdom.



Your Friend,
PropphecyStudent



PS You didn't say whether you were able to validate or invalidate the significance of the Prophetic Psalms inference by the Daniel 9 biyn text.

 

[aspen]

Hi THE Gypsy,

If we could not be certain about Scripture, then why have so many placed their lives on the line for this same? Is God a trickster, holding out a carrot which can never be realized? Is He simply playing with His creation because His is tantalized by our frustration and futility?

The fact is, God provides edification and encouragement in His Word and by His Spirit. And if we cannot receive then it's NOT because it's not there, but because of our hardness of hearts.


Matthew wrote:
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.


Jeremiah wrote:
‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’


And so we can KNOW and VALIDATE the hidden things of God through Scripture (confirmed by Scripture), as validated by history. The only distinction is whether we are willing to assail the gates to receive the kingdom.



Your Friend,
PropphecyStudent



PS You didn't say whether you were able to validate or invalidate the significance of the Prophetic Psalms inference by the Daniel 9 biyn text.

Using scripture to discern always involves Tradition or private tradition to interpret what is written. It is a fantasy to claim that scripture alone can do anything - it has to be interpreted and the interpretation applied to the situation. In fact, claiming that scripture has power, without understanding is superstitious - reducing the truth to a magic-8 ball only sets us up for disappointment and possible idol worship.

All scripture is inspired by God and is supposed to be in the canon of the Bible; every word is true, but not every word actually represents an event that really happened. I wish some Christians could see truth apart from real events! Realizing this, would save from us spending countless hours trying to fit weird, seemingly impossible events into our understanding of science and post-Enlightenment reasoning. Reading and discerning the Bible and applying it to our lives is supposed to invite a heart and mind change because of the love that is contained within the book, not the reason.

I think it is great that so much history and archaeology supports the Biblical account - I really do, but it is not my primary reason for being a Christian.

 

[PropphecyStudent]

Using scripture to discern always involves Tradition or private tradition to interpret what is written. ...

2 Peter 1:20
[sup]20[/sup]Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Thus what Scripture says, can be arrived at by ANYONE at ANYTIME, if they seek the Truth of Scripture. But are there any that seek, or do they just espouse.

 

[veteran]

You seem to be a very sincere person. There's a lot of that in your words. There's a lot of that in these pages too, written by others. Devoted Christians who have given their all to Christ and to His perfection have made the mistake of assuming that our leaders and our country are just as perfect as Jesus is...as they themselves strive to be. Even as you do, I'm sure. When we see or hear evidence to the contrary regarding national policy or actual deeds, we ignore it or take it is as an assault upon our faith in Christ.

We were all taught certain things as children. Part of the pain of growing up in America is learning that some of the things we were taught simply aren't true. Not any more, anyway.

When I was a boy I was given a short wave radio. I used it to listen to radio Moscow. That was back in the late 60's when we were fighting in Viet Nam, when we had insinuated ourselves into somebody else's business; a civil war on another continent. I was a boy patriot. The flag of the USA hung on my bedroom wall like a poster from a rock star. I believed that we were always right and THEY, whoever 'they' were, were always wrong. It was like the games of Cowboys and Indians I used to play with my friends. The Indians were always the bad guys weren't they? Always. "The only good Indian is a dead Indian." Remember those words?

I stopped listening to radio Moscow when some of the things they said made more sense that what we were being told in the newspapers and on TV. When I started talking to people who actually came back from 'Nam and heard about what was going on my perceptions started to change. One or two of my friends even went back for another tour - and never returned. That flag on my wall started to not look so perfect. I threw the short wave radio in the garbage and stopped reading the newspapers. My country wasn't like that. I just knew it.

I enlisted in the military. Half way through a six year hitch I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ. The three years after that were full of miracles and deliverances and important lessons I'll never forget. Many times I would have died and the men with me if it hadn't been for Jesus' direct intervention. One of the biggest lessons I learned from my military years was that Jesus and the policy of the United States ISN'T THE SAME THING. I left the military, rejoined civilian life and learned another lesson. Christian Americans hadn't learned that lesson.

I also learned that the Indians weren't the bad guys I'd been taught they were. Roy Rogers, Gene Autry and John Wayne lied to me.

I GREW UP.

There's a lot of sincere folks in America these days, but personal sincerity and integrity doesn't equate to NATIONAL sincerity and integrity. The policies and actions of our leaders is not the same thing as the faithfulness of Christ toward us. Not by a long shot, a very long shot. Our leaders have debauched their responsibility. They have corrupted themselves and have destroyed our grand republic in the process. Romans 13 doesn't apply when leadership has itself denied lawfulness AND GOD. There is a higher law.

Ten years after 9/11, many Americans suspect or believe that the system is broken. They are still holding onto the fantasies of their youth because the truth is horrible, too horrible to swallow in one single gulp. Things just can't be THAT BAD!

We now live in a post constitutional America. Listen to the rhetoric all around us. Listen IF YOU DARE. People are talking about the constitution in a way they never have in living memory. Listen to the WAY they talk about it. Listen to the words. They talk about the constitution today the way we USED TO talk about cowboys and Indians, about the way it USED TO BE, about the way IT OUGHT TO BE. Buried in those words and in that attitude is the fear that it JUST ISN'T THAT WAY ANY MORE. Even our debates on that subject in these pages prove this to be true.

If it were not true would we even be talking about it? Who would have thought such a thing could happen - HERE?

The congress today is a puppet of the American financial cartel, the military-industrial complex (a term invented by President Dwight D. Eisenhower, not some pinko hippy), and international corporate special interests. When there is a decision to be made of benefit to our citizens, congressional debate is locked. When a bail out is requested, congress is johnny-on-the-spot to push it through. The classic definition of a type of government that acts that way is FASCISM. To be fair, it isn't the 1930's Spanish version, the Imperial Japanese version or even the German version. It's an American version, but it's still fascism. Do your homework. Look it up. Is there another explanation? Don't just sit there denying it and calling somebody names. DO SOMETHING.

The president is the puppet of the oligarchs, those few who make the real decisions. You know, the one percent. You can reject the notion and say it's the rantings of conspiracy theorists, but you can't ignore what is really happening and you can't ignore the words.

Do you remember what America was like before John Kennedy got one in the head? No conspiracies. Not a one. After the lies of the Warren Commission were published, conspiracies became a national pastime. The problem is that some of them turned out to be true. The broadway musical CAMELOT was a favorite of President and Mrs. Kennedy. His administration was fondly referred to by some as 'Camelot', but when Jack died Camelot died.

What does a man do when his childhood dreams die? What does a man do when he wakes up one day and the world has changed right before his eyes? Does he deny it? Does he keep saying "that's not the way it's supposed to be"? Does he resort to character assassination instead of facts?

OR DOES HE FIX IT?

No man can be saved unless he first admits he's a sinner.
Neither can our country can't be saved until we admit that something is terribly terribly wrong with it.
Do your homework. Educate yourself. Open your eyes.
Grow up.

What makes a nation is always first and foremost its people. That should easily be seen with the migrations of the children of Israel retaining their nation-hood sense as Israel even while... being scattering in many countries.

The foundation of the western Christian nations was by The Father's Hand through His Son Jesus Christ, and it was Bible prophecy, even though today many have been misled almost completely away from that by false workers and their historical revisionist actions, which is where anti-nationalist, anti-patriotism ideology is originating from. The early founders of America knew the spiritual connections of the western Christian nations and their Saviour Jesus Christ, and included that foundation principle in their writings.

The seat of David's earthly throne is still standing on earth today in the Christian west, although the workers of iniquity have tried many times to end it, and... to make those living in the west to completely miss how Christ moved it there from Jerusalem (Matt.21:43; Gen.49:10).

In short, Bible prophecy establishes the western Christian nations as the "multitude of nations" that Jacob promised Ephraim would become (Gen.48). Even though many of the Jews well suspect this, most of them will never admit it. The western Christian nations today represent the house of Israel, since that's where the majority of the ten tribes of Israel and Judah now exist. The enemies of Christ well know this, but many of God's people are destroyed because of lack of knowledge about it. Like God said, His children are 'sottish' children, they have no understanding (Jer.4).

In Old Testament times when God brought destruction upon Jerusalem by its enemies, and scattered the people of Israel, Judah was busy making petitions to God to bring the people and nation back into His fold, and were not busy with anti-patriotic themes of how the nation never represented His people.

 

[aspen]

2 Peter 1:20
[sup]20[/sup]Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Thus what Scripture says, can be arrived at by ANYONE at ANYTIME, if they seek the Truth of Scripture. But are there any that seek, or do they just espouse.

You cannot escape the filter of your experience / knowledge / intuition in your interpretation, which is why sacred Church Tradition is crucial for correct interpretation.

 

[veteran]

So just what is... happening to our nation, and not just our nation in America, but to all the historical Christian nations today?

God revealed what to expect in these last days with the coming of a world beast kingdom over all nations and peoples per Revelation 13 & 17. He even stated it was His intent to assemble the nations in the last days, in order to pour out His indignation upon them (Zeph.3; Zech.14; Luke 21 and "day of the Lord" events).

In the Book of Joel, He commanded His people to watch for the events of the locust army usurping the wealth of His people working in four stages like a natural locust. In the Book of Daniel He forewarned that the power of the holy people would be scattered for a 3.5 year period in connection with the coming of a false one (Dan.9:24; Dan.12:7). Our Lord Jesus in Rev.17:15 revealed how the beast kingdom of Rev.13:1 would cover peoples, tongues, nations, and multitudes, all in prep for the coming second beast of Rev.13:11 forward, and the establishing of the image of the beast for all to bow in worship to.

In political writings just in the West, statesmen have many times mentioned about a plan for a "one world government", and that specifically is what the Globalist movement to align all nations of the world together has been about, really taking off with the establishing of the League of Nations organization and its sister groups that exist as the United Nations working today. Georgetown history professor Carrol Quigley specifically revealed that globalist working is what the Rhodes Scholarshiip training program is about for western leaders, developed by students of the late 1800's British Socialist Cecil B. Rhodes. Many U.S. statesmen and several U.S. presidents have been trained under that Rhodes program.

The news journalist Jerome Corsi, through the Freedom Of Information Act got documentation released in the past few years about a shadow government operation to join the U.S., Mexico, and Canada into an American type union like the EU, under the name of a Security and Prosperity Partnership. Corsi revealed a documented structure of secret U.S. government departments with names of heads over those departments already established and working under the radar of the American people. With the passing of GATT, NAFTA, and CAFTA, and the Super Highway plan running from Mexico through the midwest of the United States up into Canada, it's not like it's been a real secret many Americans haven't had time to grasp.

So it's not like we haven't had ample evidence of what God spoke in general prophecy about the last days coming to pass.

 

[PropphecyStudent]

You cannot escape the filter of your experience / knowledge / intuition in your interpretation, which is why sacred Church Tradition is crucial for correct interpretation.

LOL, -- Yeah, "sacred Chruch Tradition". Try usurping Scripture with error and see which wins.


OR you could perform your own investigation and possibly arrive to a TRUTH:

1 Cor 14:29
[sup]29 [/sup]Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.


Please note it doesn't say ~and let the church leadershp tell you if it's correct~.

 

[elysian]

America is a great Christian nation and has every right to invade uncivilized nations. They have a responsibility to Christianize and civilize pagan nations.

P.s.
I am an Indian, and I will be happy if America invades India to teach the Hindus some culture. So will Chinese and Christians in other pagan nations.

 

[aspen]

LOL, -- Yeah, "sacred Chruch Tradition". Try usurping Scripture with error and see which wins.


OR you could perform your own investigation and possibly arrive to a TRUTH:

1 Cor 14:29
[sup]29 [/sup]Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.


Please note it doesn't say ~and let the church leadershp tell you if it's correct~.

Unfortunately your phrase, 'your own investigation' really means replacing the authority of the Church with your private interpretation. How arrogant to replace two thousand years of theology (Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant) with your own efforts to reinvent the wheel.

 

[PropphecyStudent]

How arrogant to replace two thousand years of theology (Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant) with your own efforts to reinvent the wheel.

Your assessment then applies to Jesus, who said to the religious in his day regarding husband and wife:

Matt. 22:29
[sup]29 [/sup]Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.

 

[aspen]

Your assessment then applies to Jesus, who said to the religious in his day regarding husband and wife:

Matt. 22:29
[sup]29 [/sup]Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.

You mean when He spoke specifically to the Pharisees regarding their understanding and spiritual condition? The same Pharisees who worshiped and taught in the same Temple Jesus taught in? Jesus was a Jew! He knew the scriptures passed down by Jewish Tradition and that the Pharisees were guilty of not teaching these scriptures through the lens of love.

Speaking of marriage - are husbands and wives required to wake up every morning and start their marriage all over again? Complete with wedding and vows? Or are they allowed to grow in their relationship together - trusting that God is going to complete a good work He started in them - including their marriage? Over time, the tradition of their marriage and relationship together, enriches their marriage - it does not corrupt it!

 

[[email protected]]

In Old Testament times when God brought destruction upon Jerusalem by its enemies, and scattered the people of Israel, Judah was busy making petitions to God to bring the people and nation back into His fold, and were not busy with anti-patriotic themes of how the nation never represented His people.

Read the book of Jeremiah, brother. The language is full of rhetoric considered by the political leaders of his day to be "anti-patriotic". The poor guy was actually thrown down a well at one point because he was politically incorrect. Jeremiah continually and constantly spoke against the political and social environment of his day. Not a nice man politically, but he was God's man.

You are correct when you say that people make a nation, but it is God who rules. Not for nothing is Jesus called the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. If the people turn from God, then God will execute judgment (Math 25:31). Do Americans believe that Jesus is King of Kings? Some do. Some think he's still a helpless baby in the manger. Others deny Him, mock His name and those who follow Him. You know this to be a true statement, sir.

Meanwhile we must not forget the difference between right and wrong, politically that is. Having done that, we are required to act accordingly. Romans 13 does not apply when the higher laws of God and the conscience of man intercede. The Bible is full of divine words AGAINST those leaders who use their position for personal advantage. God opposes them. If we follow Him, ought we not do the same?

Romans 13 is not an absolute sanction for wickedness in high places. In 1930's Germany, the absolutist interpretation of this scripture was applied and resulted in disaster for tens of millions of people. The righteousness of God shall not be abrogated by the law of man.

At the end of Jeremiah's ministry the nation of Judah was smashed. The man gathered a few survivors of the royal family, a souvenir of the Davidic throne, boarded a ship and quite literally sailed into the sunset. The story was over and Israel as a sovereign nation did not exist again until the prophecy of the dry bones was fulfilled in the last century.

America is not and never will be immune to divine judgment. We love our country as I am sure Jeremiah loved his. We must remember that there is a higher allegiance among those who know Jesus Christ. The cross of Christ and the Stars and Stripes are not the same thing.

America is a grand place, or at least it used to be. A lot of us like to remind ourselves what it was like when we were young. We do this constantly. Maybe if we look at the old yellowed photos and dance to the old songs long enough we can make the bad things go away. Shortly before she died, my dear sweet aunt turned to me with tears in her eyes and said she didn't know what had happened to our country. I didn't have the heart to tell her that America is now in a post-constitutional era. America is now a fascist* state. Elvis is dead and so is the old American republic.

What is patriotism? If we talk about "the good old days" we talk about one's duty to oppose government policy. It was once the definition of patriotism. During the reelection campaign of President Lincoln there was a lot anti-government rhetoric. In America of the past, anti-government rhetoric was NEVER considered to be anti-patriotic. Today it is. Why? Simply because statements which disagree with the policies of a fascist government are never considered to be patriotic. They are always considered to be subversive, even when they address issues of the violation of human rights, international treaties, and blatant militaristic policy for the purpose of supporting corporate economic advantage.

I am first and foremost a Christian and second a patriot, attitudes which are increasingly unpopular in these united States.

----------

(*) A fascist state is, by definition, governance of by and for corporate vested interests - not the people. Military influence in the process is also quite heavy. When President Dwight D. Eisenhower made reference to the coming dangers of the military-industrial complex in America he was referring to exactly that sort of situation.

Observe congress. They stall and gag when it comes to addressing matters of benefit to the nation as a whole and to our citizens. When some sort of financial bail-out or military adventure is considered, no request is delayed or seriously questioned.

Observe what is really happening. Internal security in America is increasing exponentially, a symptom of the repression of a fascist police state. External militarism increases, the purpose of which is to secure economic advantage for the large corporations NOT freedom or democracy. The uS is now involved in TEN wars! Why are we in debt? Did THE PEOPLE ask for it or did CONGRESS and the PRESIDENT do it as a 'favor' to the bankers and the multinational corporations? Read. Think. Pray.

Is God pleased with this situation in America? Not mine. Not yours either I bet.
Is America on God's side? We have denied Him completely.
Is God on our 'side'? We have denied Him and literally spit in His face. Why would He be 'on our side'?

Finally ask yourself one question. Is God an American patriot?

 

[veteran]

Read the book of Jeremiah, brother. The language is full of rhetoric considered by the political leaders of his day to be "anti-patriotic". The poor guy was actually thrown down a well at one point because he was politically incorrect. Jeremiah continually and constantly spoke against the political and social environment of his day. Not a nice man politically, but he was God's man.

You are correct when you say that people make a nation, but it is God who rules. Not for nothing is Jesus called the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. If the people turn from God, then God will execute judgment (Math 25:31). Do Americans believe that Jesus is King of Kings? Some do. Some think he's still a helpless baby in the manger. Others deny Him, mock His name and those who follow Him. You know this to be a true statement, sir.

Meanwhile we must not forget the difference between right and wrong, politically that is. Having done that, we are required to act accordingly. Romans 13 does not apply when the higher laws of God and the conscience of man intercede. The Bible is full of divine words AGAINST those leaders who use their position for personal advantage. God opposes them. If we follow Him, ought we not do the same?

Romans 13 is not an absolute sanction for wickedness in high places. In 1930's Germany, the absolutist interpretation of this scripture was applied and resulted in disaster for tens of millions of people. The righteousness of God shall not be abrogated by the law of man.

At the end of Jeremiah's ministry the nation of Judah was smashed. The man gathered a few survivors of the royal family, a souvenir of the Davidic throne, boarded a ship and quite literally sailed into the sunset. The story was over and Israel as a sovereign nation did not exist again until the prophecy of the dry bones was fulfilled in the last century.

America is not and never will be immune to divine judgment. We love our country as I am sure Jeremiah loved his. We must remember that there is a higher allegiance among those who know Jesus Christ. The cross of Christ and the Stars and Stripes are not the same thing.

America is a grand place, or at least it used to be. A lot of us like to remind ourselves what it was like when we were young. We do this constantly. Maybe if we look at the old yellowed photos and dance to the old songs long enough we can make the bad things go away. Shortly before she died, my dear sweet aunt turned to me with tears in her eyes and said she didn't know what had happened to our country. I didn't have the heart to tell her that America is now in a post-constitutional era. America is now a fascist* state. Elvis is dead and so is the old American republic.

What is patriotism? If we talk about "the good old days" we talk about one's duty to oppose government policy. It was once the definition of patriotism. During the reelection campaign of President Lincoln there was a lot anti-government rhetoric. In America of the past, anti-government rhetoric was NEVER considered to be anti-patriotic. Today it is. Why? Simply because statements which disagree with the policies of a fascist government are never considered to be patriotic. They are always considered to be subversive, even when they address issues of the violation of human rights, international treaties, and blatant militaristic policy for the purpose of supporting corporate economic advantage.

I am first and foremost a Christian and second a patriot, attitudes which are increasingly unpopular in these united States.

----------

(*) A fascist state is, by definition, governance of by and for corporate vested interests - not the people. Military influence in the process is also quite heavy. When President Dwight D. Eisenhower made reference to the coming dangers of the military-industrial complex in America he was referring to exactly that sort of situation.

Observe congress. They stall and gag when it comes to addressing matters of benefit to the nation as a whole and to our citizens. When some sort of financial bail-out or military adventure is considered, no request is delayed or seriously questioned.

Observe what is really happening. Internal security in America is increasing exponentially, a symptom of the repression of a fascist police state. External militarism increases, the purpose of which is to secure economic advantage for the large corporations NOT freedom or democracy. The uS is now involved in TEN wars! Why are we in debt? Did THE PEOPLE ask for it or did CONGRESS and the PRESIDENT do it as a 'favor' to the bankers and the multinational corporations? Read. Think. Pray.

Is God pleased with this situation in America? Not mine. Not yours either I bet.
Is America on God's side? We have denied Him completely.
Is God on our 'side'? We have denied Him and literally spit in His face. Why would He be 'on our side'?

Finally ask yourself one question. Is God an American patriot?

And to that I say, read captivity era Books like Daniel, Esther, Lamentations, etc., which contain many, many petitions to God after He had brought destruction upon Jerusalem and had removed the house of Judah captive to Babylon for 70 years. True Americans per ancestral history back to the founders and the nation's Christian heritage, along with others that believe on Christ Jesus come here from other nations, have been in captivity to symbolic Babylon for many decades now.

But that symbolic Babylon captivity is not just here in America; it's everywhere, all over the world, only more devloped in nations outside the historical Christian west, including the state of Israel. And I don't see you trying to include those other nations outside the west where much worse things are happening to Christians.

And as for nations like the U.S., I don't see near as much atheistic attitudes in the rural areas of America that I do in the large urban populations to include retirements centers like south Florida.

I also am a Christian first, and a patriot second, and I took an oath to uphold the Constitution of The United States of America. I owe no allegiance to the state of Israel, even though I believe Americans need to protect it. But doing that doesn't mean we should side-slip the U.S. Constitution.

 

[lawrance]

As for rural areas i think a lot of people have there own mind and have to work things out themselves in their struggle or they would not survive, but a lot of urban people just follow the media and unions etc and just go along with the flow with there eyes closed with just blind faith, they have a very narrow mind set focusing only on themselves.
This may have to do with the concept of someone did it all 2000 years ago for us and all we have to do is nothing mentality = blind faith.

 

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I just found out the other day that the USA supported Pakistan in its genocide of up to three million Bengalis back in 1971.

This is in addition to all the other atrocities that the USA has been involved with in the past sixty odd years - Panama, Nicaragua, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Chile.

How can anyone seriously regard the USA as anything other than a country dedicated to the wanton destruction of human life?

We have a parade in our Florida town every year at the end of March. The usual stuff; local politicians waving from their seat in a not-quite-new convertible, too many fire trucks with sirens blaring, local businesses and organizations with their floats, high school bands marching and playing unrecognizable tunes, Miss Queen of something-or-other, a troop of equestrians and a bevy of clowns. And in the middle of this cacophony comes rolling down the street a contingent of army vehicles. The jingoist crowd, preconditioned to cheer and wave at anything that waves a flag, hollers even more loudly at this small display of American will to kill.

That's the way it was last year. I ducked into a store and was instantly immersed in a cloud of potpourri. I don't know which was more sickening, the stink or the olive green.

This year the parade came down Main Street just as it had many years before. Everybody was there...again..even the army vehicles. This year, though, there was definitely not as much cheering for the uniform types. I'm in high hopes that folks are beginning to wise up to the fact that our leaders are asking our innocent boys to become murderers for no just cause. But what I really wish and pray for is mercy for America, that the God we've turned our backs on would somehow prevent us from further madness. That's not likely to happen, though. God still has His integrity even if America has lost hers.

What's next? Syria must be dispatched and occupied by NATO forces before the end of the year. Sometime in 2013 or shortly thereafter, US led tanks will roll into Iran and begin one of the saddest chapters in our collective history. It will be sad because I believe we will meet our Stalingrad there. Remember the invasion of North Korea and the battle of the Chosin Reservoir? It will be like that, only much much worse.

I do not wish for such a thing to happen, but what can I or any of us do about it? I write to my elected representatives, who listen to the bankers and the defense contractors rather than the likes of citizens like me. I pray for mercy only because I've given up asking for justice and wisdom. Our leaders are using what wisdom they have to debauch themselves and betray us. Justice I fear is coming upon us - by the ton. That leaves mercy.

God help us. We are not the great country we once were. We have become wickedness incarnate and we shall pay a terrible price for it I fear.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft.....

 

[michaelvpardo]

I haven't read all the postings under this topic and don't really feel as though it's necessary to do so as there are certain fundamental truths in scripture which we tend to ignore when we start thinking "politically." It is undeniably true that members of our government, elected or otherwise, have enganged in evil works, as a matter of "national" policy. Our department of the interior was largely responsible for the attempted genocide of "native americans" during the 1800s and right up until the second world war, when eugenics was a popular ideology embraced by those who believe that men can create a utopian state upon the earth. Adolf Hitler was engaged in such an enterprise, trying to create a ruling nation of supermen with his third reich. It was the atrocities committed by the Nazis in the name of science and the "perfection of man" that raised the populations' awareness of the evils of eugenics, and empowered a portion of the oppressed humanity within the borders of the United States. As the world war II generation is dying off with its memories of such evils, there is again a renewed effort by the "enlightened elite" to eliminate the tragic parts of the human experience by eliminating the humans who are at the center of such tragedy. So we have abortion on demand, artificial insemination, medically based determinations of "fitness" for survival or for life, selective sterilization, and other practices at least as tragic as the "ills" they are meant to relieve us of. Our government is corrupt simply because it is part of a world system which is corrupt. However, our nation is not defined by our government, but rather, a government is created and persists by the will of the governed. As an example, consider that England has been a nation for over a thousand years, but has had more than one government in that period of time, yet remained the same nation. The government of the United States as it exists now bears little resemblence to the government formed by the "founding fathers," yet the nation remains the same nation while the people of that nation remain.
The personal correspondence and published letters of our founding fathers reveal that there was dissension among them about the creation of a central banking system based upon the system operating in England at that time, because that system was recognized to be corrupt. One of the "pro" arguments for such a system was that corruption stimulated the economy and was a necessary evil if the system was to survive. The founding fathers also largely objected to slavery, but saw it as impractical to outlaw slavery as much of their wealth was built by it (in the southern and more agrarian colonies.)
Men like Benjamin Franklin thought of the new government of the United States as an experiment in freedom that would inevitably end in tyranny when the population grew weary of the vigilance required to keep their representatives honest and accountable.
When Abraham Lincoln made his famous speech at Gettysburg he used the words "one nation under God" not simply refering to a government, but a people with the common perception of themselves living in a land separated from the lands of their ancestors and as one people and upon one soil. Never before in the history of men, had people from diverse cultures agreed to come together under a single representative form of government, for their common good, and the men responsible for its creation knew full well that the government would not survive without a code of law which had as its basis the principles of morality and restraint that can only be derived from a fear of God. This never meant that our representatives were perfect citizens or perfect people in any sense of the word, but rather that they anticipated the grace of God as a preserving factor in spite of the evil that men will do given the opportunity to do so. Is our nation evil? Do you know of a nation that isn't evil? Is it more evil than others? There are peoples that would celebrate the total destruction of our nation, and governments that would do so if they had the power to do so without risk of retaliation. That sounds pretty evil to me, but I'm not the judge of nations nor the arbiter of justice.
The bible clearly tells us a number of things with respect to government. Ultimately, all authority comes from God, whether good or evil, and a government can only be as righteous as the people from which it is formed. An evil people will have an evil government. Governments don't come into spontaneous existance, nor do they evolve, but they reflect the character of the governed. Its true that an aggressive minority can have great influence over the decisions of a governmental body, but not without at least an implicit approval of the governed. Israel as a nation was intended to be an exception to the governments of the world with God as their only king, but even God's government required the consent of the people. He would not force them to be righteous but gave them the choice of being faithful as a nation, or unfaithful to fall under subjugation. Its a choice that we have as well, but one that comes only as a gift of His grace; No Jesus, no freedom.
I served for a few years in our military, and have no regrets that I served our nation. I didn't volunteer to serve the government, but to serve the people that are represented by our government, our nation. I was born in the U.S. and will remain an American even if the government collapses. My grandparents were immigrants, but they became Americans by embracing the culture to the extent that they were able, and by determining to make this nation their home and the future home of their decendants. As a born again Christian, I now recognize that this world is not my home, and that we are left here not to be of the world, but to be lights in this world until the true light of the world returns in glory and establishes His Kingdom in its fullness. The world is full of darkness and its hard to find a place where light isn't rejected, but all things considered I'd rather live in a nation that was founded upon a healthy fear of God, than in one that denies Him outright. We live in a nation under judgment, but that's true of everyone on the planet. So, rather than dwell on the evil that's done under the authority of our leaders, it would be better to follow the Apostle Paul's advice: "Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things." Phillipians 4:8
When such things become the center of our thoughts and meditations, they also become our values. The extent to which such things become our values will be reflected in time by our government. Change in our government starts with change in our own hearts. It isn't necessary to impose your beliefs on others, but simply to live as you believe and so demonstrate what is good. The Truth ultimately prevails. Whether you've read the end of the book or not, God wins.

 

[veteran]

There's a major lacking with a lot of today's theories about western Christian nations like the U.S. and in Europe; it's how the idea of 'stewardship' is almost completely forgotten.

Luke 12:42-46
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
(KJV)


Our Lord Jesus DID setup a literal 'stewardship' structure upon this earth to REPRESENT His coming Kingdom. He established it WITH the western Christian nations of history. His Church on earth was ordained to preside over it!

His VINEYARD is here... on this earth, not up in Heaven (Matthew 21 with the parable of the vineyard and husbandmen).

The majority of His servants today have become BAD... stewards over His vineyard here on earth, and that's the real problem. Because we have not cast out the false ones among His vineyard that are here to try and steal it, there's going to be a reckoning for each one us who have failed to do our part in preserving it.

And don't start saying this stewardship structure is just about a 'congregation' of small Church groupings, for it's not; it's about His sealing and establishing of the western Christian nations which became His Vineyard after His death and Resurrection, when The Gospel was received first by them on national scales. He even stablished kings and queens in rule over it! But what have His people done instead? They listened to every false prophet and charlatan that came their way and helped them to gain control over it, taking from them bribes of money, power, status, and influence.

 

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I haven't read all the postings under this topic and don't really feel as though it's necessary to do so as there are certain fundamental truths in scripture which we tend to ignore when we start thinking "politically." .....

The extent to which such things become our values will be reflected in time by our government. Change in our government starts with change in our own hearts. It isn't necessary to impose your beliefs on others, but simply to live as you believe and so demonstrate what is good. The Truth ultimately prevails. Whether you've read the end of the book or not, God wins.

My dear Michael;
You, like many, seem to be aware of the power of truth. You, like many, feel that Christian values stand by themselves as a sort of monument to rightness. You, like many, believe that these monuments have some sort of autonomous magical power to make things right all by themselves without any of us doing anything about it, especially when it comes to America, a country that is so God blessed that it cannot fall into wickedness.

You, like many, are unaware of the power of the lie. Unfortunately you, like many, will soon learn (if you're not learning already), that truth is being denied in America by those who love lies and darkness. Jesus warned us about such folks, but we haven't listened very well.

America HAS fallen into wickedness, secularism and debauchery. The days of 'if then' are over. 'If' we repent, 'then' God will heal. 'If' we act decently toward one another 'then' things will get better. 'If' we turn away from sin 'then' God will heal the land.

Except that the days of 'if then' are long gone. We as a nation have passed the crossroads of decision and have rejected God and His good precepts. America is a nation that has not only turned its back upon God, but told Him to take a hike, leave us alone, and go away. The fact that HE HAS, escapes many good and decent Christians because they cannot imagine rejecting Him themselves. Kind souls all, we have believed our own lie that says it can't happen to us. It happened to every other empire in history including Israel - God's own special people. IT IS happening to us, NOW!

"The most striking thing about inquiring into expectations for the future is the rapidity with which the concept of fascism (with or without the label) enters the conversation....Not all knowledge serves the cause of freedom...the tendency is to suppress fears of the future, just as most people have learned to repress fears of a nuclear holocaust. It is easier to repress well-justified fears than to control the dangers giving rise to them."
- Kenneth Dolbeare, political scientist

The last line above speaks to me most pointedly, "it is easer to repress well-justified fears than to control the dangers giving rise to them."

The fear that our country is not as gospel pure and without blemish is growing, even among those who have successfully buried and repressed the idea in their own minds for years. There are some who still believe with all their hearts that we are not the people that OTHER PEOPLE say we are.

These are the folk who still live in the days of their childhood, who exchange emails with long strings of pictures and facts to remind themselves of how cute and inexpensive things used to be. These are the folk who still listen to music recorded decades ago, who fondly remember objects and people which have long since passed into memory (as though still present) and most likely have closets packed from floor to ceiling with boxes full of memorabilia that they can't bring themselves to throw away. These are the folk who vigorously repress the truth, all in the name of Christ and love of God mind you, but deny it they do.

Someone once said that when good men do nothing, evil men flourish. In America, good men have been calling and shouting about the danger for years. All for nothing. It has been all for nothing. The darkness of fascism has descended upon us. Liberty has died and we are all witnessing the desiccation and rot of a once great American empire before our very eyes. The country has become a police state and only those who live in quiet dark corners of land and mind are still able to turn a blind eye to the crimes being perpetuated upon our once admirable system of law.

Warnings are being repressed, the clarion calls to repentance before God have been ignored and we have all gone our own way. God blessed we are not. When Christians of the old NAZI and Soviet governments were asked why war and horror came to their lands they all said the same thing;

"We forgot God."

The monuments of truth and rightness that Michael hopes will save us have almost all tottered and fallen. Darkness and lies are all around. Christians, or at least the respected conventions of Christianity, once enjoyed a great land all for themselves. Today we are little more than isolated islands of the elect awash in a sea of secularism.

To repress the truth of what is happening around us today is tantamount to idolatry of the monuments of past glory and youth. To refuse to acknowledge the truth of what is happening is to accept the devil and all its works. But like Mr. Dolbeare said, it's easier to repress one's fears than to try to control the dangers that cause them.

We are faced with a dilemma that demands one of two actions from each of us. We shall either roll up our sleeves and do something or we shall cover our collective heads, crawl into our dark corners and wait quietly for death or prison to take us. Like it or not, those are our choices.

Choose wisely.

...but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[michaelvpardo]

Howdy rjp,
I was wondering if you sized me up by the one posting or if you've looked up some of the other stuff I've posted. I fear that I may have misrepresented myself if you've read and understood the things I've shared. I'm not terribly good with hyperbole, so I try to keep my communication simple and straight forward. I've never considered "christian values" to be any sort of monument to anything as they don't appear to be written in stone, but rather upon the heart. I have no illusions about the nature of the human heart or of the imaginations of man. I've been a witness to all sorts of evil and was a willing participant in much of it. There are things which I have no power over, we can't undo reality, but thanks be to God. He has chosen to preserve those of His creation who have learned from Him and received of His grace, a thing beyond the reach of no man willing to take Him at His word. If I prefer to listen to old Grateful Dead or new Bob Dylan tunes, it might be that those artists were more talented or more in touch with the human condition than the current run of self absorbed and narcisistic pop artists of the age (I don't need an idol, just some good tunes.)
Activism can bring about change, but usually not without blood shed, and not always change for the better. More commonly activism foments discord, polarizes the involved principles, rallies each party to his or her own view of righteousness, and ultimately leads to violence. In essence it is a form of revolution, and if you hold God as Sovereign, there is no difference between revolution and rebellion. Judas has once been portrayed as a political activist trying to change the direction of the Christ, but I believe that the man was just a thief who couldn't live with what he'd done in the end.
The scripture is the only trustworthy thing we have in the world and is true, not simply temporally or in the past, but eternally. Christians are left in the world not to be of the world, but witnesses to the world. Our universal calling is to be witnessess of Jesus Christ. Witnesses give testimony, not repatriation. Repatriation is the work of Jesus and His Body, but the job really belongs to the Holy Spirit. We only participate in Christ's work to the extent that we are submitted to Him, and this falls a long way from activism. Jesus has bought the world with His own blood, but relatively few will inherit it. I know what's happening in the world, but I also know what's on the other side of the scroll. That is, the future for the world isn't all that its cracked up to be, but the glories of our Lord are eternal. Each new day is still today, and today has enough troubles of its own, so why have an evil eye, dwelling upon what is not good, when you have a choice to dwell upon what is good, even the excellencies of Christ. Some people say that the road to perdition is paved with good intention, but the scriptural reason, God's point of view, is that there is a way that seems right to a man, and that way leads to death. Genuine Christian activism is prayer. The Lord is upon the throne and nothing escapes His gaze. Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing?
When we start seeing Christian relocation camps, built for re-education and isolation, should we resist or go like lambs to the slaughter? My understanding is that the way of the sword is the way of the transgressor. I've taken an oath before God, when I was young and lacked understanding, but I still haven't seen where the line in the sand was drawn, or how its been crossed. Men can change their minds, but only God can change the heart and who has counseled Him? God alone is good and that is something worth always keeping in mind.
Take care and may the Lord bless you, keep you, and make His face to shine upon you. Amen.

Really, I pray He does,
Michael