The Kingdoms of the Beast (part 2)

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Trekson

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Let’s move on to Dan. 7. No matter what viewpoint a student of prophecy starts with, we mostly all have one thing we believe in common and that is the identity of the beasts from Dan. 7. We know that the lion-like beast was Babylon, the bear-like beast was the Medo-Persians and the leopard-like beast was Greece and the fourth terrible beast is an offshoot of Rome. Admittedly, some try to put a modern spin on it and want to believe that the lion is England, the bear is Russia and the leopard is either an African-Indian alliance, various parts of the Middle East or some even believe it’s the USA! The description of the 4th beast in Dan. 7:19 depicts two of the clay combined nations, Iron teeth for Rome and nails of Brass for Greece.

Where we depart from that common ground is in the identity of the ten toes from Dan. 2 and the ten horns of the fourth beast from Dan. 7. Historicists and many futurists believe they are made up of some of the remnants of the western part of the Roman Empire. I believe they’re looking in the wrong direction. The picture of the beast from Rev. 13 tells us where to look for these nations to come from. Rev. 13:2 – “And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, (Greece) and his feet were as the feet of a bear,(Medo-Persia) and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: (Babylon, but the focus is on the mouth) and the dragon (Satan) gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.” (words in parenthesis mine). Most of us are in agreement that this is the a/c rising to power. The mouth in this description isn’t about sharp teeth or a strong jaw. It’s about boastfulness as exampled by the king in Daniel 4:30 – “The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty.” See also Dan. 7:25, Dan. 11:36-37 and Rev. 13:5-6. These show that the a/c will have this same type of arrogance.

It seems plain to me that we should look in the areas that these four kingdoms had in common which means we should concentrate on Rome’s eastern empire (aka the Byzantine Empire) and not the western. I found at least eight modern countries that they, at various times, controlled. They are Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq and Turkey. There is one more that Greece, Medo-Persia and Rome shared and that is Libya. The Medo-Persians and Greeks had Afghanistan and Pakistan in common and Rome and Greece had Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Armenia and Romania in common. Individually they each held territories the others didn’t so I will list them as possibilities as well. They consist of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Georgia and Albania. I believe at least the eight they all had in common may be part of the ten kingdoms controlled by the dragon, and the last two may be Libya and Greece. If, in the near future, Palestine receives nation status, they could be one of the ten as well. On a map they are all connected and if united would make one heck of a fearsome enemy, similar to a caliphate but on a grander scale.

Consider Rev. 12:3 – “And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.” This verse is closely associated with but not the same as the beast in Rev. 17:9-11 – “And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.”

Now we know that the dragon is Satan, but the seven crowns and kings portray the nations that Satan has used throughout history to thwart God’s plan for Israel and the salvation of mankind. These nations are, in historical order: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, (five are fallen) Rome (one is) and the kingdom of the a/c (the other is not yet come). I believe the seven mountains in my dream represent the seven nations that have historically had it out for Israel. I think it is not a coincidence that the ten nation of the a/c confederacy will include all of these historical enemies of Israel. “He must continue a short space” ties in with Rev. 12:12 – “…he knoweth that he have but a short time.” See the part of verse 10 that goes: “even he is the eighth, and is of the seven” The reason he is the 8th is because we need to include Satan in the list as he is the ruler of the world. It’s my opinion that Satan will possess the body of the a/c when one of the heads is “wounded to deathand raised again, so the world will associate him w/ Christ, when he is cast out of heaven knowing he has but a short time, so we count the a/c as seven and the Satan possessed a/c as a different leader equaling eight.

Let’s look at a different pairing of verses. Dan. 7:24 – “And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.” Rev. 13:1 shows us a beast with seven heads, ten horns and ten crowns, this is the same beast as Rev. 17. Rev. 17:12 tells us the ten horns are ten kings, hence the ten crowns and they give their power to the beast. However, to fulfill Dan. 7:24 and to understand the description in Dan. 7:5 – “And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh” since Medo-Persia is depicted as the bear, in my opinion, the three subdued kings should come from nations not originally part of that empire which could be Greece and Libya but I’m unsure of the third. This could also be the start of the fulfillment of Rev. 6:4.

A lot of people seem to believe that Babylon and the a/c’s kingdom are the same. They are not! They overlook Rev. 17:16 – “And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.” And vs. 18 – “And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Why does the beast hate the whore? They seem to share the same lack of values and hatred of Christ to the point of blaspheming. The reason is because she is “riding” the beast which means she is exercising control and reining in their desires for world domination. She can do that because she is vs. 18 and in my opinion that can only fit the USA/NYC, at this time. Could things change? Sure, and if it does, I’ll revisit my conclusions. Another question we should ask ourselves is, what is Satan’s/ac’s end goal? What do they want to accomplish? If you answered the destruction of Israel, you are way off base! Their goal is to steal the worship that is due God and have the earth worship them instead. That is what the “anti” in antichrist means, not the opposite of but instead of! That’s why the first thing Satan does when he is cast down to the earth is to go after believing Israel and when that fails, the church. Rev. 12:13-17. In my opinion, the a/c will accomplish this by making Israel believe he is their long awaited Messiah and Islam’s 12th Imam (the Mahdi) and the second coming of Christ for non-educated “Christians” all at the same time and thus deserving of the world’s worship.
 

Acolyte

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Their goal is to steal the worship that is due God and have the earth worship them instead. That is what the “anti” in antichrist means, not the opposite of but instead of!

Exactly. And we all think he will be a tyrant, when actually he will come in after a terrible
event. Whether it be an action of man(nuclear destruction), or a natural event(a meteor), maybe even alien invasion. Either way its our Fathers will. But the a/c is going to make things better. He will probably bare the scars and stripes of our savoir.

This is how he deceives.. it's all downhill from there. Armor up.
 

Trekson

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Those are indeed possibilities but as the Obama leadership showed, people want things just given to them. You know the short-sighted, "If I can benefit, I will support you" type followers. He won't come from a "great nation" and he will give the people what they want. "Dan. 11:23-24 - "And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people. 24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time."

You're right, that many look for an evil Israel hating tyrant, but that won't be the case. He will come on the scene as a good guy seeming to have a solution to many of the world's ills.
 
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farouk

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Exactly. And we all think he will be a tyrant, when actually he will come in after a terrible
event. Whether it be an action of man(nuclear destruction), or a natural event(a meteor), maybe even alien invasion. Either way its our Fathers will. But the a/c is going to make things better. He will probably bare the scars and stripes of our savoir.

This is how he deceives.. it's all downhill from there. Armor up.
We need to keep looking unto Jesus (Hebrews 12.2) and feed on the Word day by day.
 
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Bobby Jo

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Let’s move on to Dan. 7 ...
Let's not.

It's like preparing the meringue before the pie is started. Or taking a shower before wrestling a pig. Or nailing shingles before the sheathing is down.

If you can't figure out Daniel 2, then you have NO BUSINESS proceeding to any other Book or Chapter which expounds on Daniel 2. -- Plain and simple.


Bobby Jo
 

Jay Ross

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Let's not.

It's like preparing the meringue before the pie is started. Or taking a shower before wrestling a pig. Or nailing shingles before the sheathing is down.

If you can't figure out Daniel 2, then you have NO BUSINESS proceeding to any other Book or Chapter which expounds on Daniel 2. -- Plain and simple.


Bobby Jo

Sorry Bobby Jo, Daniel 7 is not an expansion of Daniel 2. Both prophecies are independent of each other.

Your understanding of Daniel 2 Statue prophecy is flawed as it is a repeat of the traditional understanding that has been around for many centuries.

Shalom
 

Bobby Jo

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Sorry Bobby Jo, Daniel 7 is not an expansion of Daniel 2. Both prophecies are independent of each other.
Your understanding of Daniel 2 Statue prophecy is flawed as it is a repeat of the traditional understanding that has been around for many centuries.
Shalom
So if you're competent on Daniel 2, then could you please explain the INTELLIGENT DESIGN of the Dan. 2:45 sequence: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE?


Thanks,
Bobby Jo
 

Jay Ross

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So if you're competent on Daniel 2, then could you please explain the INTELLIGENT DESIGN of the Dan. 2:45 sequence: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE?


Thanks,
Bobby Jo

Daniel 2:35: - Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 2:45: - Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold — the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure."

If that is how you see verse 45, then that is fine, but for me it is just a list of the elements that are the statue, repeated twice in the prophecy.

Perhaps you are searching for something that is immaterial in our understanding of the Prophecy itself.

Shalom
 

Bobby Jo

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Daniel 2:35: - Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold ... that is immaterial ...

I think you summed up your position on a myriad of things you can't digest, -- GOD, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Salvation, ... yeah you get the idea. If GOD's Word doesn't fit your doctrine, -- I guess it's, what did you call it?, -- "immaterial".

I guess this is what they call a "cafeteria christian", -- one that picks and chooses what appeals to them, and disregards everything else. I've heard about them, but they usually try to conceal their disdain for the whole of Scripture. And in that, I commend your boldness, but not your ill considered choice.


Personally, I see Scripture as a blue print with different views showing different information, -- ALL Intelligent Design. But if you're content with disregarding some of the views and cross-sections, don't worry, -- I quite confident the component will function without all the features the designer specified.

Bobby Jo
 

Bobby Jo

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To ANYONE Who Can HELP,

I need someone who can provide an assessment of the Daniel 2:45 sequence: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. It seems that some discount any INTELLIGENT DESIGN in this sequence, but it appears to be me that GOD Intentionally Designed HIS Word with information which is beneficial to HIS Children:

Matt. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

If a simple ~accent-mark~ is important, then a relatively complex sequence which deviates from a previous chronological sequence MUST be by INTELLIGENT DESIGN. But some in this Forum insist otherwise, -- and I hate to think that GOD is not the Superior Intellect in the room!


Bobby Jo
 

Jay Ross

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I think you summed up your position on a myriad of things you can't digest, -- GOD, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Salvation, ... yeah you get the idea. If GOD's Word doesn't fit your doctrine, -- I guess it's, what did you call it?, -- "immaterial".

I guess this is what they call a "cafeteria christian", -- one that picks and chooses what appeals to them, and disregards everything else. I've heard about them, but they usually try to conceal their disdain for the whole of Scripture. And in that, I commend your boldness, but not your ill considered choice.


Personally, I see Scripture as a blue print with different views showing different information, -- ALL Intelligent Design. But if you're content with disregarding some of the views and cross-sections, don't worry, -- I quite confident the component will function without all the features the designer specified.

Bobby Jo

Bobby, it seems that you are undoing your worth here on this forum for any useful information.
 

Bobby Jo

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Bobby ...

It's "Bobby Jo". (just kidding)

... it seems that you are undoing your worth here on this forum for any useful information.

Yeah, so here's what you need to explain:

Dan. 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ... = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE
It's OK if you can't explain an aspect of Scripture. Calvin couldn't resolve 1:21 & 10:1, and most aren't as well considered as Calvin. But to dismiss GOD's Word over something you don't understand, -- now that's what both you and Calvin have done TO YOURSELVES.


So what's that INTELLIGENT DESIGN?!?


Bobby Jo