That doesn't make any sense and has nothing to do with what i said...."good" people are often lazy and complacent seeking the path of least resistence and the first to blame somebody else when things go wrong.... there is not a single problem this nation has that could not have been nipped in the bud if people too busy building their castles and kingdoms had cared enough...the last statement is just idiotic and makes less sense than the first....accepting a false messiah has nothing to do with anything being discussed here.The right accuses the left of making excuses then they offer their own and think they are different somehow
The United States of Evil
- Thread starter Peltast
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
That doesn't make any sense and has nothing to do with what i said...."good" people are often lazy and complacent seeking the path of least resistence and the first to blame somebody else when things go wrong.... there is not a single problem this nation has that could not have been nipped in the bud if people too busy building their castles and kingdoms had cared enough...the last statement is just idiotic and makes less sense than the first....accepting a false messiah has nothing to do with anything being discussed here.The right accuses the left of making excuses then they offer their own and think they are different somehow
Hi Veteran,
I'm not sure what the context of your statements were, but God the Father put Christ on the cross, and he did it for His elect, so that our sin would be covered by the propitiation made through His blood. That's no lie, it's from the scripture, and in that sense the elect are responsible for Christ's crucifixion; i.e. He died for the transgressions of His people (the elect) therefore the elect are indirectly responsible for His death:
He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
[sup]9 [/sup]And they[sup][a][/sup] made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
[sup]10 [/sup]Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
[sup]11 [/sup]He shall see the labor of His soul,[sup][b][/sup] and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities. Isaiah 53:8-11
This passage from Isaiah is the gospel prophesied long before the birth of Jesus, but it describes exactly the transaction of God's atoning sacrifice as the propitiation of our sin and in verses 10 and 11 foretells the resurrection of the Lord. When I read this passage as a child I knew instantly that it was written about Christ, and I didn't understand or receive the gospel to nearly 30 years later. Isaiah wasn't Satan's servant. Satan would've preferred it if Christ didn't go to the cross; He tempted the Lord repeatedly, even with all the kingdoms of the world, but Jesus remained faithful even to death upon the cross, and for this His name is exalted above all names:
[sup]8 [/sup]And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. [sup]9 [/sup]Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, [sup]10 [/sup]that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, [sup]11 [/sup]and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:8-11
I'm not proud of the fact that my sin put Christ on the cross, but i'm proud of the Christ who gave His life for me. There is no greater love expressed by man, and God expressed His love for us in that He gave His Son to die for us while we were yet sinners.
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, Michael V Pardo.
You're exactly right. Thank you for that perspective on the Cross. I would only add that a point could be made here, distinguishing between the "before" picture and the "after" picture: When we sinned before coming to the Master for His sacrifice applied to our sin, we were simply "sinners" in need of God's justification. Afterward, we became "sinners-justified-by-grace"; that is, we traded places with the Messiah (as in 2 Cor. 5:21) and we are now the "righteousness of God in the Messiah" while He had become "our sin" upon the cross. The transfer was complete and the Law was satisified (sin --> death). OUR sin was covered by HIS death, and we no longer have to die eternally for our sin. Instead, in spite of His righteousness, Yeshua` BECAME our sin and was crucified AS our sin. And, now, we are HIS righteousness, or rather God's righteousness in Him, and - in spite of our sin - we have become trophies to Yeshua`s glory, a tribute to His Awesome Sacrifice!
Again, thank you for your clear and biblical perspective.
You're exactly right. Thank you for that perspective on the Cross. I would only add that a point could be made here, distinguishing between the "before" picture and the "after" picture: When we sinned before coming to the Master for His sacrifice applied to our sin, we were simply "sinners" in need of God's justification. Afterward, we became "sinners-justified-by-grace"; that is, we traded places with the Messiah (as in 2 Cor. 5:21) and we are now the "righteousness of God in the Messiah" while He had become "our sin" upon the cross. The transfer was complete and the Law was satisified (sin --> death). OUR sin was covered by HIS death, and we no longer have to die eternally for our sin. Instead, in spite of His righteousness, Yeshua` BECAME our sin and was crucified AS our sin. And, now, we are HIS righteousness, or rather God's righteousness in Him, and - in spite of our sin - we have become trophies to Yeshua`s glory, a tribute to His Awesome Sacrifice!
Again, thank you for your clear and biblical perspective.
That is gross confusion.
Where in God's Word does it lay the blood guilt of Christ's crucifixion upon The Father or His own servants?
Christ humbled Himself to be crucified is what The Scriptures actually say, and likewise the idea that His crucifixion was ordained of old by The Father and necessary.
But the actual 'blood guilt' was not upon The Father, nor His elect.
Many today have obviously been tricked by the devil into assigning The LORD GOD as having blood guilt upon His hands. I wouldn't want to have to answer for that confusion at the future Judgment while claiming to be a believer on His Son Jesus Christ!
The blood guilt is upon those Jews of the scribes and Pharisees that always followed Him around trying to convict Him of something in order to murder Him. It was murder, because they 'premeditated' for a way to kill Him. And thus Christ assigned the blood guilt upon them per Scripture like Matt.23, including the blood guilt of the prophets their fathers murdered. In John 8, one will even see Christ Jesus Himself accusing that specific group as being murderers.
Cool your jets veteran,
You want to use archaic language to confuse the argument, but our sin clearly put Christ on the Cross. I never said that we had a "blood guilt" for it, rather, we have obtained mercy for our "blood guilt" because He took our guilt upon Himself. He said Himself, "Father forgive them for they do not know what they do." Consider for a moment just what it is that you are implying with your argument. The scripture that I already presented from Isaiah 53 says very clearly, "[sup]10 [/sup]Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief."
Now exactly who do you think the Lord is that is referred to? Who is the "He" and who is the "Him?"
I hope that you see that this is speaking of the Father and the Son. If you recognize the latter, are you trying to say that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ was pleased that Satan crucified His Son? It's true that those men who were accusing Jesus were sons of the devil, but the clear teaching of scripture is that we all fall into that category until we are born again of His Spirit and made alive in Christ.
I will add the verses again for the peanut gallery: And you He made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. Ephesians 2:1-3 (my emphasis) If you disagree with this, then it's God that you're disagreeing with and not me. If you'd like to present some other interpretation of the verses, well, that would be revealing as well, but the scripture says what it plainly says.
There's no confusion in my mind, because I have His Spirit, and there is no confusion with God, only with His enemies. Did you know that the Hebrew translation of "Babel" is confusion? The chaldean translation of the word is revealing also and reveals something of the "world's" point of view.
Let me ask you one simple question. Is it better to be right all the time (at least from your own point of view) or to be covered with His righteousness? You can't be both, that is, unless you're God, and if you are God, then I appologize for questioning your dogmatism.
The formula for the decline of nations is much simpler than many would have it to be,brevity not being the first refuge of choice for the intellectual....this nation was founded on the laws of God and the authority of God,the people of God retreated to their churches and personal kingdoms they were more interested in building,motivated by either indifference or in some cases collusion they did nothing to stand in the way of decline.
You're still in confusion, because Christ's death on the cross was ordained before the foundation of this world. When at that time did you have sin?
Read your Bible instead of listening to men's doctrines.
I've been reading my Bibles since I was about 8 years old, I'm 55 now (and will be 56 in about a week.) i've read the canon at least a dozen times in it's entirety as well as having read individual books many more times. I started with the King James version as a child, because my parents had a copy of that version as a gift from the reader's digest book club. I later picked up a copy of the Jerusalem Bible and read the Apocrypha as well at least once. I used that version for many years as I found it an easy read, but after I was saved (actually received Jesus as Lord, accepting the scripture to be the testimony of God) I began reading other versions, including the Gideon Bible, the New International Version, the American Standard, the New American Standard, the New World translation, the New King James, some parts of the scripture in an old copy of the Haf-torahs, the Tanaach, and parts of 20 other versions that I had in a software bible study CD. I don't put much weight in the doctrines of men, nor do I put any weight in the doctrines of demons. There is no confusion in the Word of God, only confusion in men who try to understand the scripture with carnal minds attempting to glean meaning where none exists.
Admittedly, I have a different perspective than the average reader with regard to eternity and the nature of this world. You talk about things that are ordained, but I tell you that everything that has ever happened and ever will happen was known by God before He spoke everything into being. Time is part of creation. God being self existent and not a part of creation does not experience time as we do, though He took on limitations in the person of His Son and of His Spirit by entering into His creation. While this concept is drawn from scripture, it isn't adequately explained by it. At the time of the writing of scripture, there were no men who understood special or general relativity theory or the concept that time is another aspect of space. While there are physicists who are trying to disprove Albert Einstein's theories, Einstein's mathematics were sound and work all too well. The only reason physicists work hard at disproving Einstein, is that they want to exclude the concept of a creator and still be able to explain the existence of the universe. Einstein didn't believe in the God of scripture, but He did come to the conclusion that there had to be a God that gave order to the universe. To atheists this concept is unacceptable, and pure science was redefined, by one of the biologists who first worked out the structure of DNA, as that which only excludes the idea of divine will at work in the universe. Given that God knew us from the foundation of the world, He knew what our choices would be in this life. By His perspective outside of creation, I have always had sin and so did you and everyone else, but by His perspective I have always been saved as was everyone who ever received Jesus as Lord and Savior or ever will. We experience time sequentially, but with God the Father, all time is like a single thought in His mind. The Bible is written in language that we can understand and as a story that unfolds before us, but with Him all time is laid out before Him and nothing is hidden from Him. I'm not providing scriptural references here, but I can if you'd like them. However, that seems like a colossal waste of time to me (but not to Him.)
I couldn't help but notice that you gave no explanation for the passage quoted from Isaiah, perhaps you should read it again and give some more consideration. Your argument is with God, not with me. I didn't make these doctrines up, the scripture teaches them, but they are spiritual in nature and can only be understood by those who are alive in Christ. If you have indeed understood the immensity of your own sin (immense because it put the Son of God on a cross of wood) and have submitted to Him as your Lord and only hope of salvation, then you should have His Spirit and be perfectly capable of understanding sound doctrine. If you haven't trusted Him with your eternal soul, then you still have a big problem. I would recommend that you spend some time in prayer and asking Him for His Spirit in this and in all things. I know that you have genuine zeal for God, but I don't know if you're like Saul or like Paul in that regard. I've met more than one dead man with a zeal for God and even some with a zeal for scripture, but only the Lord knows if they will see Him as He is. God's desire for you (and for me) is for good and not for evil. I pray that you are not offended by what I've written, but more significantly that you are not offended by His cross. If He hadn't died for us, for our sin, we would have no hope, only a certain knowledge of an eternity in darkness and separated from the love of God.
Admittedly, I have a different perspective than the average reader with regard to eternity and the nature of this world. You talk about things that are ordained, but I tell you that everything that has ever happened and ever will happen was known by God before He spoke everything into being. Time is part of creation. God being self existent and not a part of creation does not experience time as we do, though He took on limitations in the person of His Son and of His Spirit by entering into His creation. While this concept is drawn from scripture, it isn't adequately explained by it. At the time of the writing of scripture, there were no men who understood special or general relativity theory or the concept that time is another aspect of space. While there are physicists who are trying to disprove Albert Einstein's theories, Einstein's mathematics were sound and work all too well. The only reason physicists work hard at disproving Einstein, is that they want to exclude the concept of a creator and still be able to explain the existence of the universe. Einstein didn't believe in the God of scripture, but He did come to the conclusion that there had to be a God that gave order to the universe. To atheists this concept is unacceptable, and pure science was redefined, by one of the biologists who first worked out the structure of DNA, as that which only excludes the idea of divine will at work in the universe. Given that God knew us from the foundation of the world, He knew what our choices would be in this life. By His perspective outside of creation, I have always had sin and so did you and everyone else, but by His perspective I have always been saved as was everyone who ever received Jesus as Lord and Savior or ever will. We experience time sequentially, but with God the Father, all time is like a single thought in His mind. The Bible is written in language that we can understand and as a story that unfolds before us, but with Him all time is laid out before Him and nothing is hidden from Him. I'm not providing scriptural references here, but I can if you'd like them. However, that seems like a colossal waste of time to me (but not to Him.)
I couldn't help but notice that you gave no explanation for the passage quoted from Isaiah, perhaps you should read it again and give some more consideration. Your argument is with God, not with me. I didn't make these doctrines up, the scripture teaches them, but they are spiritual in nature and can only be understood by those who are alive in Christ. If you have indeed understood the immensity of your own sin (immense because it put the Son of God on a cross of wood) and have submitted to Him as your Lord and only hope of salvation, then you should have His Spirit and be perfectly capable of understanding sound doctrine. If you haven't trusted Him with your eternal soul, then you still have a big problem. I would recommend that you spend some time in prayer and asking Him for His Spirit in this and in all things. I know that you have genuine zeal for God, but I don't know if you're like Saul or like Paul in that regard. I've met more than one dead man with a zeal for God and even some with a zeal for scripture, but only the Lord knows if they will see Him as He is. God's desire for you (and for me) is for good and not for evil. I pray that you are not offended by what I've written, but more significantly that you are not offended by His cross. If He hadn't died for us, for our sin, we would have no hope, only a certain knowledge of an eternity in darkness and separated from the love of God.
I didn't mean to make you mad when I said you're still confused about this, but the hard fact is, you still are. Here's why I say that.
The Isaiah 53 Scripture you quoted, you'll also find this from Paul...
Rom 8:31-32
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
(KJV)
In what sense are we to understand that? And it's important to make the distinction, because it's possible to mis-assign the blood guilt of Christ's crucifixion directly to The Father only IF... those passages are understood 'literally'. The proper interpretation is that God ALLOWED His Son to be crucified upon the cross. The Father did not do it 'directly'. He knew... who would do it beforehand, even prior to the foundation of the world.
So you have a choice on how to interpret those passages...
1. you can believe The Father crucified His Son directly, which would mean what? What that would mean is almost unthinkable applied to our Heavenly Father. If true, it would mean He aligns directly with Satan who rebelled against Him, kind of even equating them together, which is the unthinkable part. And ultimately it would mean the devil and his servants should be 'let off the hook' IF God Himself was directly responsible for His Son's crucifixion. Instead we know the devil's fate is what? To perish, including the wicked who refuse to turn to The Father through His Son Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 2:14 specifically tells us that Christ's death on the cross involved the defeat of death and the devil.)
Many appear to miss how through OT history about the 'seed' which Christ was to be born through experienced many direct attacks by Satan in trying to destroy that seed. You'll discover it was involving those attempts most often when God directly stepped in and intervened to save that elect seed lineage Christ was to be born through. Satan was trying to destroy that seed, showing he obviously knew if Christ's birth in the flesh was successful, then what would it mean? God's Salvation Plan would not have succeeded, which would have meant also what ultimately? The devil and death (which God assigned to him) would not have been defeated. And there comes the hingepoint - those directly behind crucifying Christ by the devil's own hand, because our Lord Jesus pointed to those directly in seveal Scriptures, and He was not assigning the guilt to all Jews nor all peoples (Matt.23). He assigned the blood guilt to the "tares", the servants of the devil that had crept in among the Jews long before, and directly to the devil himself per the Heb.2:14 Scripture.
Or...
2. You can accept that The Father already knew beforehand, by foreknowledge, who would crucify His Son upon the cross, and why, and who all the blood guilt would be assigned to because of that act, and how the act of crucifying His Son our Heavenly Father had no part in, except allowing it to happen only.
This is why the idea of assiging Christ's death upon the cross to all peoples is easily traced back to the devil, because it mis-assigns the blood guilt, and let's the devil and his servants off the hook. In that respect, those like in Matt.23 which Christ assigned the blood guilt upon would mean absolutely nothing. And that's been a mis-guided issue within Christianity because the false claim that all unbelieving Jews were guilty of Christ's crucifixion, when all along specific ones were behind it, and our Lord Jesus pointed to them directly, especially in the John 8 chapter and with the parable of the tares of the field.
Tell me is the united states of evil in this prophecy? How about the Canada of evil? The Europe of evil? The France of evil? Even the Heaven of Evil?
1 Come near, you nations, to hear; And heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, The world and all things that come forth from it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter.
3 Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.
1 Behold, the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste, Distorts its surface And scatters abroad its inhabitants.
2 And it shall be: As with the people, so with the priest; As with the servant, so with his master; As with the maid, so with her mistress; As with the buyer, so with the seller; As with the lender, so with the borrower; As with the creditor, so with the debtor.
3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered, For the Lord has spoken this word.
4 The earth mourns and fades away, The world languishes and fades away; The haughty people of the earth languish.
5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left.
7 The new wine fails, the vine languishes, All the merry-hearted sigh.
8 The mirth of the tambourine ceases, The noise of the jubilant ends, The joy of the harp ceases.
9 They shall not drink wine with a song; Strong drink is bitter to those who drink it.
10 The city of confusion is broken down; Every house is shut up, so that none may go in.
11 There is a cry for wine in the streets, All joy is darkened, The mirth of the land is gone.
12 In the city desolation is left, And the gate is stricken with destruction.
13 When it shall be thus in the midst of the land among the people, It shall be like the shaking of an olive tree, Like the gleaning of grapes when the vintage is done.
14 They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing; For the majesty of the Lord They shall cry aloud from the sea.
15 Therefore glorify the Lord in the dawning light, The name of the Lord God of Israel in the coastlands of the sea.
16 From the ends of the earth we have heard songs: "Glory to the righteous!" But I said, "I am ruined, ruined! Woe to me! The treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously, Indeed, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously."
17 Fear and the pit and the snare Are upon you, O inhabitant of the earth.
The Lord is not happy with all of the false gospels that are being taught.
30 "Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to them: 'The Lord will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth-- For the Lord has a controversy with the nations; He will plead His case with all flesh. He will give those who are wicked to the sword,' says the Lord."
32 Thus says the Lord of hosts: "Behold, disaster shall go forth From nation to nation, And a great whirlwind shall be raised up From the farthest parts of the earth.
33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.
34 "Wail, shepherds, and cry! Roll about in the ashes, You leaders of the flock! For the days of your slaughter and your dispersions are fulfilled; You shall fall like a precious vessel.
35 And the shepherds will have no way to flee, Nor the leaders of the flock to escape.
36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, And a wailing of the leaders to the flock will be heard. For the Lord has plundered their pasture,
37 And the peaceful dwellings are cut down Because of the fierce anger of the Lord.
12 And in that day the Lord God of hosts Called for weeping and for mourning, For baldness and for girding with sackcloth.
13 But instead, joy and gladness, Slaying oxen and killing sheep, Eating meat and drinking wine: "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!"
14 Then it was revealed in my hearing by the Lord of hosts, "Surely for this iniquity there will be no atonement for you, Even to your death," says the Lord God of hosts.
.
1 Come near, you nations, to hear; And heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, The world and all things that come forth from it.
2 For the indignation of the Lord is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter.
3 Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.
1 Behold, the Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste, Distorts its surface And scatters abroad its inhabitants.
2 And it shall be: As with the people, so with the priest; As with the servant, so with his master; As with the maid, so with her mistress; As with the buyer, so with the seller; As with the lender, so with the borrower; As with the creditor, so with the debtor.
3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered, For the Lord has spoken this word.
4 The earth mourns and fades away, The world languishes and fades away; The haughty people of the earth languish.
5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left.
7 The new wine fails, the vine languishes, All the merry-hearted sigh.
8 The mirth of the tambourine ceases, The noise of the jubilant ends, The joy of the harp ceases.
9 They shall not drink wine with a song; Strong drink is bitter to those who drink it.
10 The city of confusion is broken down; Every house is shut up, so that none may go in.
11 There is a cry for wine in the streets, All joy is darkened, The mirth of the land is gone.
12 In the city desolation is left, And the gate is stricken with destruction.
13 When it shall be thus in the midst of the land among the people, It shall be like the shaking of an olive tree, Like the gleaning of grapes when the vintage is done.
14 They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing; For the majesty of the Lord They shall cry aloud from the sea.
15 Therefore glorify the Lord in the dawning light, The name of the Lord God of Israel in the coastlands of the sea.
16 From the ends of the earth we have heard songs: "Glory to the righteous!" But I said, "I am ruined, ruined! Woe to me! The treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously, Indeed, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously."
17 Fear and the pit and the snare Are upon you, O inhabitant of the earth.
The Lord is not happy with all of the false gospels that are being taught.
30 "Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to them: 'The Lord will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise will come to the ends of the earth-- For the Lord has a controversy with the nations; He will plead His case with all flesh. He will give those who are wicked to the sword,' says the Lord."
32 Thus says the Lord of hosts: "Behold, disaster shall go forth From nation to nation, And a great whirlwind shall be raised up From the farthest parts of the earth.
33 And at that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground.
34 "Wail, shepherds, and cry! Roll about in the ashes, You leaders of the flock! For the days of your slaughter and your dispersions are fulfilled; You shall fall like a precious vessel.
35 And the shepherds will have no way to flee, Nor the leaders of the flock to escape.
36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, And a wailing of the leaders to the flock will be heard. For the Lord has plundered their pasture,
37 And the peaceful dwellings are cut down Because of the fierce anger of the Lord.
12 And in that day the Lord God of hosts Called for weeping and for mourning, For baldness and for girding with sackcloth.
13 But instead, joy and gladness, Slaying oxen and killing sheep, Eating meat and drinking wine: "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!"
14 Then it was revealed in my hearing by the Lord of hosts, "Surely for this iniquity there will be no atonement for you, Even to your death," says the Lord God of hosts.
.
The idea of assigning guilt to God seems more than a bit foolish, yet it is exactly what most people do who reject Him. However, lets back up a bit and let me ask you a few questions. When men made covenants between each other to end a dispute, what was understood to be the price of breaking that covenant? What is the difference between a covenant and a blood oath? If God were to break a covenant, what would be His penalty? For that matter is God were to break an oath, what would be the penalty? Given that it is impossible for God to lie, how could He break a covenant?
Isaiah 9
19 Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts The land is burned up, And the people shall be as fuel for the fire; No man shall spare his brother.
20 And he shall snatch on the right hand And be hungry; He shall devour on the left hand And not be satisfied; Every man shall eat the flesh of his own arm.
19 Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts The land is burned up, And the people shall be as fuel for the fire; No man shall spare his brother.
20 And he shall snatch on the right hand And be hungry; He shall devour on the left hand And not be satisfied; Every man shall eat the flesh of his own arm.
Our Heavenly Father has never broken any covenant that He has made. A covenant in the literal sense means a 'contract'. It was man that broke the covenants they agreed to follow from Him.
Okay, let try another track.
[sup]62 [/sup]And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, [sup]63 [/sup]that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done,” says the Lord God.’
Has this verse been fulfilled in Christ and what does it mean to provide an atonement? How did men make atonement for sin under the law. Did God provide atonement without the shedding of blood? Is there remission of sin without the shedding of blood? Did Satan shed blood for our atonement or did God? To provide is not the same as to ordain. The notion that Jesus was crucified by Satan to thwart God's purpose also suggests that Satan had no clue what the meaning of Isaiah chapter 53 is, while the purpose of God's sacrifice in the person of His suffering servant is plainly stated. Satan may have attempted to prevent the birth of Christ and to kill Him before He went to the cross, but if He wanted to see Christ crucified why did Satan tempt Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world? For that matter, why did Jesus refuse to allow His followers to make Him king over Israel? Why did Jesus say this about His life,
- No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
John 10:17-19 ?
By the way, thank you for providing the opportunity to present the gospel in so much depth. I'd prefer to do this in another context, but as long as Christ is preached, the gospel is advanced and souls are saved to the glory of God the Father. Amen.
The abomination of desolation. Is your faith fully pruned and ready?
9 Those slain by the sword are better off Than those who die of hunger; For these pine away, Stricken for lack of the fruits of the field.
10 The hands of the compassionate women Have cooked their own children; They became food for them In the destruction of the daughter of my people.
No, believers on Christ Jesus did NOT crucify Him, nor did The Father in Heaven. You're confusing the issue in Scripture as to who is held responsible, which Matthew 23 gave you a major clue. You're also not addressing those of Jude 1:4. Thusly, you have to purposefully leave out a lot of Scripture to assign the blood guilt upon all people.
I hope that you realize that you didn't present an actual argument in opposition to any argument that I've presented here, only assertions without textual basis. Nor have you answered a single objection to your own questionable doctrinal statements. If the Holy Spirit had taught you any of the things that you assert, don't you think He'd have taught others in the body as well? If you look through the books of the prophets, I think that you'll find that the testimony of Christ as regards any matter relevant to Himself tends to be repeated by more than one voice. If you've arrived at your conclusions based upon your own resources, then there is no reason to believe them. In the body of Christ we all drink from the same spiritual well, we all have the same Spirit, which is from the Lord, and we all have access to the mind of Christ to the extent that we've renewed our minds through His word. He doesn't tell one person a thing and then tell another something different. Our God is not one of confusion, regardless of the nonsense that is sometimes broadcast on "christian" television. By the way, I never said that Christians crucified Christ. There were no Christians at the time of the crucifixion, the Holy Spirit was not yet given, the day of pentecost had not yet come. What I did write is that our sin put Christ on the cross and that's God's truth, not mine. The immensity of our sin is not in it's nature, but in it's cost, which was the blood of our Lord. Until you understand that, you can never give the Lord the love that He deserves.
[sup]46 [/sup]You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. [sup]47 [/sup]Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.” Luke 7:46-47
I've showed you plenty Scripture evidence for what I'm saying, and that includes the Bible reference I gave you in my last post too!
But you won't go check it out for youself, but now appear you only want to argue, and make false affirmations.
Those who mis-assign the blood guilt of Christ's crucifixion to Christ's Church have a RECKONING coming! Hope I don't have to see it, especially when it also involves stubborness, which God equates with rebellion (1 Sam.15:23).
Mattew 23 is a very condemning chapter. In it Jesus was addressing those scribes and Pharisees that rejected Him and sought His life. Jesus spoke in anticipation of the judgment of Jerusalem, and of the judgment of Israel in rejecting their King and in fulfilling the prophetic word about those who were under the law of Moses. The book of Deuteronomy is very clear about the blessings and the curses upon Israel as God's chosen people, chosen for blessing and curses under the law and as an example to the world. The reason for an example is that the world will also come under judgment, not for disobedience under the law, but for rejecting the Word of God made flesh:
[sup]47 [/sup]And if anyone hears My words and does not believe,[sup][a][/sup] I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. [sup]48 [/sup]He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. [sup]49 [/sup]For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. John 12:47-49
Please note that some Pharisees actually believed that Jesus was sent by God, most notably Nicodemus. The Apostle Paul was among the Pharisees and a persecutor of the Church prior to his Damascus road introduction to the risen Lord. Were they part of the "synagogue of Satan?" What that term referred to in its context were those unregenerate souls among the Jews, who denied the gospel of grace and worked actively to subvert it. All unregenerate souls are children of wrath and why? There is no one good, but God, there is no one righteous, with the exception of the One that God sent in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ. Your posts condemn the righteous (by imputation). If anyone is walking upon dangerous ground, well, I suggest you examine your own feet. Have you been washed in the blood? Don't worry, though, you needn't understand the scripture to be saved. You only need to recognize that you are guilty before God and separated from Him by your sin, and that He paid the price for your redemption with His own precious blood in the person of His Son. In believing Him you are justified and freed from the guilt of all your sin because that sin was placed upon Him at the cross. He bore your guilt upon the cross (and mine) therefore His blood was shed for us and we are as responsible for His death as the rest. However, God HImself chose His Son to be the propitiation of our sin, and for this reason He does account us righteous and frees us of our "blood guilt," when we submit to Jesus as our Lord and Savior. If this isn't true, then there is no elect, and only hell and condemnation for all humanity: "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
Similar threads
