The view of the "Gentleman God" who honors human will above His own.

[St. SteVen]

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish
but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV

In regards to "free-will", I have often heard the argument that God, being the gentleman that he is,
would never VIOLATE our "free-will" by forcing us to believe in Him.

"and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—" 2 Peter 3:15 NKJV

The Lord is patient (longsuffering) toward us. His patience (longsuffering) is salvation.

Question: Is the will of God subordinate to the will of humankind?

Interesting that those who claim that God is a gentleman, also believe that
He will incinerate those who do not receive the free gift of salvation. What is gentle about that?

To be clear, I still believe that every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge that Christ is Lord.
But those who believe in the "Gentleman God" claim the confession is forced. What is gentle about that?

Here's my position on that.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth
and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation,
acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and
returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
(the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,”
and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about")
– properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"),
without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Steven,

Does Yahava, discipline his own children? Does the LORD, desire people to do his will rather than their own, but allows them to choose in which he moves accordingly? While I do not believe the wrath of God abides on people anymore today - people good or bad will be rewarded in the afterlife.

Luke 22
39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” 41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]

45 When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. 46 “Why are you sleeping?” he asked them. “Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation.”

John 5

 

[Lambano]

In regards to "free-will", I have often heard the argument that God, being the gentleman that he is,
would never VIOLATE our "free-will" by forcing us to believe in Him.

It depends on what God's "will" really is. What DOES God want?

Those who take the "Gentleman God" position typically believe that God's desire is that all would "of their own free will" believe and repent. I can see in a funky sort of way why a God who can make anything He wants to happen might get bored with that and desire something that by definition He can't make happen.

However, God is also a player, and human will can be manipulated by circumstances. If this is the way it is, I suspect God isn't all that religious about the rules by which He plays the game.

 

[Arthur81]

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward [a]us, not willing that any should perish
but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV

In regards to "free-will", I have often heard the argument that God, being the gentleman that he is,
would never VIOLATE our "free-will" by forcing us to believe in Him.

"and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—" 2 Peter 3:15 NKJV

The Lord is patient (longsuffering) toward us. His patience (longsuffering) is salvation.

Question: Is the will of God subordinate to the will of humankind?

Interesting that those who claim that God is a gentleman, also believe that
He will incinerate those who do not receive the free gift of salvation. What is gentle about that?

To be clear, I still believe that every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge that Christ is Lord.
But those who believe in the "Gentleman God" claim the confession is forced. What is gentle about that?

Here's my position on that.

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth
and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation,
acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and
returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
(the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,”
and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about")
– properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"),
without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

I've never heard the phrase a "Gentleman God", but I do not find 2 Peter 3:9, 15 to to say what most seem to get out of them. "Is the will of God subordinate to the will of humankind?" Depends on which will of God you reference. Left on his own, every man is a "will not"... only by being born from above does a man become willing.

"It is not that the Lord is slow in keeping his promise, as some suppose, but that he is patient with you. It is not his will that any should be lost, but that all should come to repentance." (2Pet 3:9, REB)

It depends on which will of God the verse speaks of. If it is God's will of decree, NO ONE will be lost; but, we know that the scriptures do not teach universal salvation. But, if it is His will of precept, the verse makes perfect sense to us. God's will of precept is what he commands us to obey. His will of precept is seen in Paul's writing -

"But as for you who bear the name of Jew and rely on the law: you take pride in your God; you know his will; taught by the law, you know what really matters;" (Rom 2:17-18, REB)

"...but now disclosed, and by the eternal God’s command made known to all nations through prophetic scriptures, to bring them to faith and obedience—"1 (Rom 16:26, REB) Also Dt. 29:29; Psa 78:5

Your quote of 2 Peter 3:15 "the longsuffering of our Lord IS SALVATION --" is a bit misleading. If you check the KJV, "is" is in italics since it is not in the Greek, but added by the translators. A more understandable translation reads -

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience is an opportunity for salvation, as Paul, our dear friend and brother, said when he wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him." (2Pet 3:15, REB)
or
"Look on our Lord's patience as the opportunity he is giving you to be saved, just as our dear friend Paul wrote to you, using the wisdom that God gave him." (2Pet 3:15, GNB92)

This again aligns with the words of Paul -

"Or do you despise his wealth of kindness and tolerance and patience, failing to see that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?" (Rom 2:4, REB)

 

[St. SteVen]

However, God is also a player, and human will can be manipulated by circumstances. If this is the way it is, I suspect God isn't all that religious about the rules by which He plays the game.

Great post, thanks.
This is a very interesting point in your quote above. This has been true in my life.
God is willing to play games with us. I don't mean in a dishonest way, but for fun.
I have often played the "help me find a parking spot" game. Amazing.

 

[St. SteVen]

... we know that the scriptures do not teach universal salvation. ...

Do we?
Who told us that?

 

[MatthewG]

It depends on what God's "will" really is. What DOES God want?

Those who take the "Gentleman God" position typically believe that God's desire is that all would "of their own free will" believe and repent. I can see in a funky sort of way why a God who can make anything He wants to happen might get bored with that and desire something that by definition He can't make happen.

However, God is also a player, and human will can be manipulated by circumstances. If this is the way it is, I suspect God isn't all that religious about the rules by which He plays the game.

What is the will of God for those in Christ?

 

[St. SteVen]

Your quote of 2 Peter 3:15 "the longsuffering of our Lord IS SALVATION --" is a bit misleading. If you check the KJV, "is" is in italics since it is not in the Greek, but added by the translators. A more understandable translation reads -

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience is an opportunity for salvation, as Paul, our dear friend and brother, said when he wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him." (2Pet 3:15, REB)
or
"Look on our Lord's patience as the opportunity he is giving you to be saved, just as our dear friend Paul wrote to you, using the wisdom that God gave him." (2Pet 3:15, GNB92)

This again aligns with the words of Paul -

"Or do you despise his wealth of kindness and tolerance and patience, failing to see that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?" (Rom 2:4, REB)

Don't those translations lean heavily on doctrinal bias?
I was careful to chose a translation that best made my point, so I'm in the same boat. But...

 

[MatthewG]

I've never heard the phrase a "Gentleman God", but I do not find 2 Peter 3:9, 15 to to say what most seem to get out of them. "Is the will of God subordinate to the will of humankind?" Depends on which will of God you reference. Left on his own, every man is a "will not"... only by being born from above does a man become willing.

"It is not that the Lord is slow in keeping his promise, as some suppose, but that he is patient with you. It is not his will that any should be lost, but that all should come to repentance." (2Pet 3:9, REB)

It depends on which will of God the verse speaks of. If it is God's will of decree, NO ONE will be lost; but, we know that the scriptures do not teach universal salvation. But, if it is His will of precept, the verse makes perfect sense to us. God's will of precept is what he commands us to obey. His will of precept is seen in Paul's writing -

"But as for you who bear the name of Jew and rely on the law: you take pride in your God; you know his will; taught by the law, you know what really matters;" (Rom 2:17-18, REB)

"...but now disclosed, and by the eternal God’s command made known to all nations through prophetic scriptures, to bring them to faith and obedience—"1 (Rom 16:26, REB) Also Dt. 29:29; Psa 78:5

Your quote of 2 Peter 3:15 "the longsuffering of our Lord IS SALVATION --" is a bit misleading. If you check the KJV, "is" is in italics since it is not in the Greek, but added by the translators. A more understandable translation reads -

"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience is an opportunity for salvation, as Paul, our dear friend and brother, said when he wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him." (2Pet 3:15, REB)
or
"Look on our Lord's patience as the opportunity he is giving you to be saved, just as our dear friend Paul wrote to you, using the wisdom that God gave him." (2Pet 3:15, GNB92)

This again aligns with the words of Paul -

"Or do you despise his wealth of kindness and tolerance and patience, failing to see that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?" (Rom 2:4, REB)

What is the will of God for those in Christ?

 

[MatthewG]

God's over all will it to have people to come to know Christ, (in my opinion) that could be possible for those who are outside the kingdom, @St. SteVen. However, what is God's will for those in Christ in this life now? As they go about their life building up spiritual treasures in heaven following after Jesus now today?

 

[Arthur81]

Don't those translations lean heavily on doctrinal bias?
I was careful to chose a translation that best made my point, so I'm in the same boat. But...

It is of human nature that any translation is going to have a bias, sometimes doctrinal and at times cultural. But, I saw no doctrinal bias in these verses I quoted from the REB and GNB, even though the Dynamic Equivalence translations are more interpretive. I find the RV/ASV to be the most accurate, with the least doctrinal bias. The translations of today seem to be the liberal works that are more and more heavily feminist, especially the NRSVue; or the evangelical ones which promote a right-wing political bias in abortion (Ex. 21:22) and homosexual conduct(1 Cor. 6:9; 1 Tim. 1:10).

At this time, in my parallel translations in my software, I have the YLT, NRSV, REB and GNB. I chose the REB and GNB because the references in 2 Peter were concerning Paul's writing and I used Paul as a guide to pick what seems the best translations in 2 Peter. I admit, we all tend to pick the one that fits our overall theology. Yet, we can try to avoid it as much as possible.

 

[Arthur81]

What is the will of God for those in Christ?

I believe Paul gave us a good passage on that question -

"Finally then, brethren, we beseech and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that, as ye received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, even as ye do walk,— that ye abound more and more. For ye know what charge we gave you through the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye abstain from fornication; that each one of you know how to possess himself of his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who know not God; that no man transgress, and wrong his brother in the matter: because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification." (1Thess 4:1-7, ASV)

Mmm.... is "his own vessel" referring to having a wife? Does Paul have the following in mind?

"But, because of fornications, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband." (1Cor 7:2, ASV)

 

[Windmillcharge]

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth
and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation,
acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and
returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
(the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

When will this happen, that ' every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. '

It is not happening now and scripture strongly implies that it will happen when Jesu returns in glory.
In which case those who are not Christian are bowing proclaiming Jesus's legal and spiritual position as Lord.
They are not worshipping him but acknowledging him out of fear.

 

[amadeus]

"The view of the "Gentleman God" who honors human will above His own."​

@St. SteVen

Eventually, our will should equal God's will. This is our direction (or it is not).

If we are decreasing in ourselves and He is increasing in us then which will is ours? Which will is becoming ours?

Mt 26:39

And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Joh 3:30

He must increase, but I must decrease.

 

[St. SteVen]

When will this happen, that ' every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. '

It happens in the next age when we are all together.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

It is not happening now and scripture strongly implies that it will happen when Jesu returns in glory.
In which case those who are not Christian are bowing proclaiming Jesus's legal and spiritual position as Lord.
They are not worshipping him but acknowledging him out of fear.

That's a common view, but not how the NT Greek word is defined. Nothing there about a forced confession.
To openly and whole-heartedly declare without reservation.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about")
– properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"),
without reservation (no holding back).

 

[St. SteVen]

Eventually, our will should equal God's will. This is our direction (or it is not).

Agree.
Obviously our will is flexible, but His is not.
Yet many claim the opposite.
Claiming that our will is sovereign over God's will.

 

[Windmillcharge]

Nothing there about a forced confession.
To openly and whole-heartedly declare without reservation.

Just as the demons believe in God and shudder, so every unbeliever will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord.

 

[St. SteVen]

Just as the demons believe in God and shudder, so every unbeliever will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord.

Are demons the enemies of Jesus?



If so...



What did Jesus teach us to do to our enemies?




Jesus taught us to love our enemies.




Is Jesus a hypocrite?

 

[Windmillcharge]

Jesus taught us to love our enemies

You would understand Christianity far better if you sought to actually understand what the bible teaches, I stead of what you think it teaches.

Yes Jesus and God the Father love sinners, there love is seen in the provision of what is needed for life.
But as Romans 2:4 says,
Do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness etc, not realising that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance.
Verse 5 because of your stubbornness your unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath against yourself.

Demons have rejected God so totally that we struggle to comprehend it, they know God, they know of his love and mercy and have rejected it.
They are already under judgement.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Jesus taught us to love our enemies

You would understand Christianity far better if you sought to actually understand what the bible teaches, I stead of what you think it teaches.

Are you claiming that Jesus didn't teach us to love our enemies?
Or denying the obvious conclusion about what he should do to his own enemies?
Does God hold us to a higher standard than he holds himself?
This is simply common sense! Of which Bible-thumpers have none.

/