The word “HAS”

[RichardBurger]

Yes, the Holy Spirit is paramount. However, let's not forget that God has appointed Human teachers for his Church as well. Those who disparage this fact are taking a lopsided view of how we receive and understand God's word.

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. . .

If I had listened to men I would be doing works for my salvation. Most men in the churches teach a blended gospel of works and grace which I call the Social/Moral gospel and it will not save anyone.

If we were left at the mercy of human teachers no one would be saved. Jesus promised a teacher and in Him we are to trust. He is called the Holy Spirit. In Him I will trust. You can trust in whoever you wish.

The scriptures CLEARLY teach that the churches of men will become apostate in the last days. If people wish they can continue to trust in them but they will wind up in Hell.

We are to compare with scriptures the teachings of men. Unless a human teacher has the Holy Spirit his/her teachings will be false. It is the Holy Spirit indwelling the child of God that allows him/her to see the truth in God's word. If a teacher does not have the Holy Spirit then they are a false teacher.

 

[Prentis]

[sup]1[/sup] Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, [sup]2[/sup] of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [sup]3[/sup] And this we will[sup][a][/sup] do if God permits.
[sup]4[/sup] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [sup]5[/sup] and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [sup]6[/sup] if they fall away,[sup][b][/sup] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
[sup]7[/sup] For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [sup]8[/sup] but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

According to what you say, once placed in Christ, no real overcoming is necessary on our part, and no real walking in the Spirit.

You use the same words, but convey a different meaning. You believe we can be alive in the Spirit, but do not believe we can walk by the Spirit, as Paul tells us. You have taken the part God does, and twisted the rest of the instructions to say we must not do the second part, which is to walk by the Spirit (once we have been made alive), and to add to our faith the character of Christ.

You preach another gospel, one of free entrance and easy eternal life... But we are called to die, that we might live!

 

[RichardBurger]

[sup]1[/sup] Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, [sup]2[/sup] of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [sup]3[/sup] And this we will[sup][a][/sup] do if God permits.
[sup]4[/sup] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [sup]5[/sup] and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [sup]6[/sup] if they fall away,[sup][b][/sup] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
[sup]7[/sup] For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; [sup]8[/sup] but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

According to what you say, once placed in Christ, no real overcoming is necessary on our part, and no real walking in the Spirit.

You use the same words, but convey a different meaning. You believe we can be alive in the Spirit, but do not believe we can walk by the Spirit, as Paul tells us. You have taken the part God does, and twisted the rest of the instructions to say we must not do the second part, which is to walk by the Spirit (once we have been made alive), and to add to our faith the character of Christ.

You preach another gospel, one of free entrance and easy eternal life... But we are called to die, that we might live!

What is new in your reply. All you teach is works to be saved and kept saved that a man has to do.

We die to the world as soon as we believe. It is not something we can do. Or are you suggesting that we kill ourselves?

 

[Prentis]

Oh, well, I guess you missed the part about bearing fruit... Or maybe that part of scripture can just be ignored so that the "saved no matter whether or not we are faithful is true".

To follow what you say is equivalent to coming out of Egypt, ignoring God's promised land that we are to take, and sit there happy that the Lord saved us.... out of Egypt!

I am suggesting we put to death the old nature by the new. Are you suggesting we keep walking by the old?

 

[RichardBurger]

Oh, well, I guess you missed the part about bearing fruit... Or maybe that part of scripture can just be ignored so that the "saved no matter whether or not we are faithful is true".

To follow what you say is equivalent to coming out of Egypt, ignoring God's promised land that we are to take, and sit there happy that the Lord saved us.... out of Egypt!

I am suggesting we put to death the old nature by the new. Are you suggesting we keep walking by the old?

You believe, and teach, that a child of God becomes perfect in the flesh. You are boasting that you are perfect in the flesh by what you do and are therefore self-righteous.

And just what is your fruit that you claim? How many have believed the Gospel of grace through your message of works? Bearing fruit is not becoming sinless in the flesh, it is bring in the lost.

If you are not walking in your flesh body then you must be dead physically. The spiritual children of God still live in bodies with a sinful nature and will sin in the flesh. That is why Jesus intercedes for us.

 

[Prentis]

I have just told you that I do not claim to be walking in this. If I did, I would lie, and if the one who does says he doesn't, he is lying also.

What has become obvious is that you wont answer whether all things are possible through Christ who strengthens us, like walking as he walked...

 

[RichardBurger]

I have just told you that I do not claim to be walking in this. If I did, I would lie, and if the one who does says he doesn't, he is lying also.

What has become obvious is that you wont answer whether all things are possible through Christ who strengthens us, like walking as he walked...

If you are not walkng in this then you are a hypocrite. You say others must do what you are not doing.

NO! Jesus did not have flesh like ours.

You decieve yourself. If we could be like Jesus we would never sin. We (YOU) can't be like Jesus as long as you are in sinful flesh because you (WE) are not God (Jesus).

The sinful nature was pasted down to mankind through Adam. However, Jesus did not have a Father of sinful flesh. But you certainly do.

Jesus had a body of sinless flesh because God is His Father.

When Jesus was on the cross He took on all the sins of mankind and paid for them by His shed blood. He had to be perfect in order to do that so the answer to your foolish idea is that He (Jesus) was perfect. YOU ARE NOT PERFECT.

 

[aspen]

We haven't even been able to decipher Bill Clinton's question about what the word 'is' REALLY means.......I think the word 'has' is far too advanced for our feeble minds.....

 

[Prentis]

If you are not walkng in this then you are a hypocrite. You say others must do what you are not doing.

NO! Jesus did not have flesh like ours.

You decieve yourself. If we could be like Jesus we would never sin. We (YOU) can't be like Jesus as long as you are in sinful flesh because you (WE) are not God (Jesus).

The sinful nature was pasted down to mankind through Adam. However, Jesus did not have a Father of sinful flesh. But you certainly do.

Jesus had a body of sinless flesh because God is His Father.

When Jesus was on the cross He took on all the sins of mankind and paid for them by His shed blood. He had to be perfect in order to do that so the answer to your foolish idea is that He (Jesus) was perfect. YOU ARE NOT PERFECT.

Tips for recognizing denial of the power:

Implying Jesus was not tempted as we are! (Check!)

Maintaining that we are at a disadvantage compared to Jesus (ie we CANNOT do all things through Christ who strengthens us)! (Check!)

Stating that the sinful nature is more powerful than the new nature in Christ! (Check!)

Denying the power of the cross to put to death the old man (and by the same denying the power of new life and ressurection which follows the cross)! Check!

One does not have to have taken the promised land to proclaim that by the power of God it may be done. One only needs to have experienced God's power in response to our faith to a degree to know that it is there. Then this man must be trained to be able to handle the full degree. To proclaim the high calling only condemns our conscience if we oppose ourselves to what makes us move into it (the cross). Not being there is not a condemnation, rather if we have faith, the message brings hope.

 

[RichardBurger]

Tips for recognizing denial of the power:

Implying Jesus was not tempted as we are! (Check!)

Maintaining that we are at a disadvantage compared to Jesus (ie we CANNOT do all things through Christ who strengthens us)! (Check!)

Stating that the sinful nature is more powerful than the new nature in Christ! (Check!)

Denying the power of the cross to put to death the old man (and by the same denying the power of new life and ressurection which follows the cross)! Check!

One does not have to have taken the promised land to proclaim that by the power of God it may be done. One only needs to have experienced God's power in response to our faith to a degree to know that it is there. Then this man must be trained to be able to handle the full degree. To proclaim the high calling only condemns our conscience if we oppose ourselves to what makes us move into it (the cross). Not being there is not a condemnation, rather if we have faith, the message brings hope.

Tips for recognizing the self righteous.

Denial that the shed blood on the cross pays for all of the sins of mankind.

Saying that they are perfect in the flesh by their works.

Implying that they are perfect in the flesh and no longer need Jesus to intercede for them.

Maintaining that they have the power, in themselves, to not sin and that they no longer sin in he flesh.

Maintaining the idea that they are sinless because God has made them sinless in the flesh and at the same time admitting that they still sin in the flesh. “A contradiction and is hypocritical.”

Claiming that they are prodding and kicking others to be sinless like they are and in fact they are judging the children of God.

Denying that Paul said we are not made perfect by the actions of the flesh. (Gal.3)

 

[Jake]

Richard, you have a complete misunderstanding what even the word "grace" means, your definition is one that is from the depths of hell, causing many people to stumble, like the Bible speaks of whoa to those who cause another to stumble.

Grace is given to us and we do have a responsibility of what we do with it. It's like the Parable of the Talents, God gives us grace and do we use it or do we hide it, do we we grab ahold of it or do we bury it. It's like being given a text book to take a test, do we use the book? or do we keep it closed and guess on the test? It's like being told to dig a hole and given a shovel, do we use the shovel? or do we use our hands?

Your explanation is neither Bibical or helpful for any student of the Bible.

You are a follower of Paul and he is not a savior, you hang on to everything Paul says, yet you throw out the very words of Jesus. We will know them by their fruits, in this case, the maturity one has in Christ. I am only 17, yet know that what Paul has said in his letters is not what you teach, a 5 year old could tell the difference. Paul would be appalled at your teachings, and you have placed his suffering in one of vain suffering for the sake of the cross.

 

[RichardBurger]

Richard, you have a complete misunderstanding what even the word "grace" means, your definition is one that is from the depths of hell, causing many people to stumble, like the Bible speaks of whoa to those who cause another to stumble.

Grace is given to us and we do have a responsibility of what we do with it. It's like the Parable of the Talents, God gives us grace and do we use it or do we hide it, do we we grab ahold of it or do we bury it. It's like being given a text book to take a test, do we use the book? or do we keep it closed and guess on the test? It's like being told to dig a hole and given a shovel, do we use the shovel? or do we use our hands?

Your explanation is neither Bibical or helpful for any student of the Bible.

You are a follower of Paul and he is not a savior, you hang on to everything Paul says, yet you throw out the very words of Jesus. We will know them by their fruits, in this case, the maturity one has in Christ. I am only 17, yet know that what Paul has said in his letters is not what you teach, a 5 year old could tell the difference. Paul would be appalled at your teachings, and you have placed his suffering in one of vain suffering for the sake of the cross.

Jake, What cause others to stumble is the self-righteous gospel of works. The works of salvation were completed on the cross by God.

I know exactly what the word grace means. It means """UNMERITED FAVOR"". Unmerited means it is not earned by what we do and it isn't kept by what we do.

Our responsibility is to place our belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the work of God on the cross and to preach the finished work of God on the cross.

The gospel of "what we have to do" is the stumbling block that will keep many on the path to hell.

You completely ignore the very words of Jesus where He said He only came to the lost sheep of Israel. You take the first 4 books of the N.T and say if it applied the the Jews under the Law of Moses then it applies to us under grace.

You completely ignore that it was Paul that was sent to the Gentiles. His message was "hidden in God" and revealed to Paul to be preached to the whole world.

(the words hidden in God are explained away by the religious as if they don't really mean what they say)

You stumble with your religious doctrines that take the gospel of the kingdom (the kingdom that Jesus came to setup and blend it with the gospel of grace and it is this blending that cause all the stumbling.

The religious preach that if you don't have works you don't have faith. That was said by James in his book. The same book that verse 1:1 of the same book says was written to the Jews and the religious say it is written to the Grace church too. You can't mix a law of works with grace. It destroys both.

But you believe what you wish but you should discontinue telling another that they are wrong when in fact you may be wrong. JUst say what YOU believe. It takes a lot of arrogance to set your self up as a know it all but I know that inflates the ego of those that say it.

 

[Jake]

Jake, What cause others to stumble is the self-righteous gospel of works. The works of salvation were completed on the cross by God.

I know exactly what the word grace means. It means """UNMERITED FAVOR"". Unmerited means it is not earned by what we do and it isn't kept by what we do.

Our responsibility is to place our belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the work of God on the cross and to preach the finished work of God on the cross.

The gospel of "what we have to do" is the stumbling block that will keep many on the path to hell.

You completely ignore the very words of Jesus where He said He only came to the lost sheep of Israel. You take the first 4 books of the N.T and say if it applied the the Jews under the Law of Moses then it applies to us under grace.

You completely ignore that it was Paul that was sent to the Gentiles. His message was "hidden in God" and revealed to Paul to be preached to the whole world.

(the words hidden in God are explained away by the religious as if they don't really mean what they say)

You stumble with your religious doctrines that take the gospel of the kingdom (the kingdom that Jesus came to setup and blend it with the gospel of grace and it is this blending that cause all the stumbling.

The religious preach that if you don't have works you don't have faith. That was said by James in his book. The same book that verse 1:1 of the same book says was written to the Jews and the religious say it is written to the Grace church too. You can't mix a law of works with grace. It destroys both.

But you believe what you wish but you should discontinue telling another that they are wrong when in fact you may be wrong. JUst say what YOU believe. It takes a lot of arrogance to set your self up as a know it all but I know that inflates the ego of those that say it.

Grace is given, not to do what we want, it is given, so that we may use this grace to do the good works God has prepared for us. It is given, not so that we sit and do nothing, we are to use the grace given to us to do whatever it is God tells us to do.

I honestly get from the doctrine you are preaching that God expects us to sit on our hands and be hand fed by a silver spoon! This is so contrary to what the Bible teaches, is God training up strong leaders for His Kingdom or a bunch of passive little wimps?

Even a good earthly father realizes to he must expect something of his children! He will discipline his children and give them jobs to do, otherwise, they would be spoiled, unruly children who grow up to be spoiled unruly adults!

 

[Prentis]

Again, I have judged no man for not walking in this, but have simply stated that it is indeed what we are called to. The only accuser is in your own mind Richard! This is simply like a trumpet call, let all those who come come, and let God be the judge. Let us give (our lives) with a joyful heart!

What you are preaching is lasciviousness. You have turned Paul's words into a scheme by which we may be saved without it actually having any power in reality and now. What you teach seeks to keep babies in Christ... Babies! It is opposite to the work of Paul, and by it you make yourself an enemy of the cross, because you oppose the work of the cross in men which bring them from immaturity to being spiritual men.

 

[RichardBurger]

Grace is given, not to do what we want, it is given, so that we may use this grace to do the good works God has prepared for us. It is given, not so that we sit and do nothing, we are to use the grace given to us to do whatever it is God tells us to do.

I honestly get from the doctrine you are preaching that God expects us to sit on our hands and be hand fed by a silver spoon! This is so contrary to what the Bible teaches, is God training up strong leaders for His Kingdom or a bunch of passive little wimps?

Even a good earthly father realizes to he must expect something of his children! He will discipline his children and give them jobs to do, otherwise, they would be spoiled, unruly children who grow up to be spoiled unruly adults!

I don't care what your opinion is of what I teach.

A child of God does good works as God directs (not as man directs) but he is not on forums teaching works.

If you think I am not doing good works when I preach the gospel of grace then you must also say that Paul did not have good works.

But the religious idea is that we are doing good works (trying not to sin) because God has said we must. Therefore we do them so we can earn browny point.

When you have been called every name in the book and had people mis-represent what you say to try to shut you up when you preach the gospel of grace then you can say you are doing what God wants you to do.

I am preaching salvation by the power of God on the cross and the religious just can't stand a gospel where they can't boast of their works.

You said, "I honestly get from the doctrine you are preaching that God expects us to sit on our hands and be hand fed by a silver spoon! This is so contrary to what the Bible teaches, is God training up strong leaders for His Kingdom or a bunch of passive little wimps?" --- I could care less about what you think I am teaching.

As I said above the children of God are doing good works by placing their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in God's work on the cross and denying that they can save themselves by what they do in the flesh. Gal. 3:3 Are you now being made perfect by the flesh? -- It seems that most on these forums think they are being made perfect by the actions of the flesh.

 

[Prentis]

Nice way of avoiding the questions and the point, Richard, with the "I don't care what you think"!

It's become very clear you have taken the scriptures to make a scheme whereby we are declared 'saved'. You wish to take out all the ifs and declare it is not necessary that we be transformed into his image and that we manifest him in our lives.

You call obedience works of the flesh... And any striving and choosing to move on to maturity, you call 'works salvation'. Yet Paul clearly shows in Philippians 3 that the mind that is mature is the one that strives and moves forward in Christ.

Overcoming by the Spirit you call being made perfect in the flesh...

 

[RichardBurger]

Nice way of avoiding the questions and the point, Richard, with the "I don't care what you think"!

It's become very clear you have taken the scriptures to make a scheme whereby we are declared 'saved'. You wish to take out all the ifs and declare it is not necessary that we be transformed into his image and that we manifest him in our lives.

You call obedience works of the flesh... And any striving and choosing to move on to maturity, you call 'works salvation'. Yet Paul clearly shows in Philippians 3 that the mind that is mature is the one that strives and moves forward in Christ.

Overcoming by the Spirit you call being made perfect in the flesh...

I said old: "As I said above the children of God are doing good works by placing their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in God's work on the cross and denying that they can save themselves by what they do in the flesh. Gal. 3:3 Are you now being made perfect by the flesh? -- It seems that most on these forums think they are being made perfect by the actions of the flesh.

You say I am avoiding questions. The way I see it is that you avoid looking at the scriptures I post, Gal. 3:3, so my replies to you will become very short. You can believe what you wish.

 

[Jake]

Are you now being made perfect by the flesh? -- It seems that most on these forums think they are being made perfect by the actions of the flesh.

You are the only one who keeps saying this, no one has said we are made perfect by the flesh, we are made perfect by the Spirit, that is why Paul tells us that he has not yet attained, but he keeps moving forward to perfection.

Paul is trying to point out to readers of the Bible, that we now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by which we can be made in the likeness of Christ, that we do not need to keep the OT laws, by which men tried to remain sinless, which was impossible, only because they did not have His Spirit indwelling them. Now we do, and now we are partakers of the His divine nature - these are the things we need to know in order to live our lives in Christ! We need to know we are overcomers, the Bible says - we are overcomers, we are more than conqueorors - in Christ.

When we have people preaching that there is no power in the Holy Spirit living in us, we are His temple, then it's a defeated life already! There is no bearing fruit, there is no growing in love and faith. You have ignored all that God said that you COULD be in Christ.

 

[Prentis]

You are the only one who keeps saying this, no one has said we are made perfect by the flesh, we are made perfect by the Spirit, that is why Paul tells us that he has not yet attained, but he keeps moving forward to perfection.

Paul is trying to point out to readers of the Bible, that we now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by which we can be made in the likeness of Christ, that we do not need to keep the OT laws, by which men tried to remain sinless, which was impossible, only because they did not have His Spirit indwelling them. Now we do, and now we are partakers of the His divine nature - these are the things we need to know in order to live our lives in Christ! We need to know we are overcomers, the Bible says - we are overcomers, we are more than conqueorors - in Christ.

When we have people preaching that there is no power in the Holy Spirit living in us, we are His temple, then it's a defeated life already! There is no bearing fruit, there is no growing in love and faith. You have ignored all that God said that you COULD be in Christ.

Jake says it every well.

It seems to be obvious to everyone except you that we are NOT saying we are made perfect by the flesh, but it does say we are made perfect... By the Spirit!

When we say this, you reply we are teaching works, and being made perfect by the flesh.

What you do not understand is the power of the gospel... Which is actually what saves us from this lost state, from this blindness, and this old nature. The power made available to us through faith is the power to stand strong and be as he is. It actually has power to make us overcomers through Christ! A gospel with power, who would've thought!

 

[RichardBurger]

Jake says it every well.

It seems to be obvious to everyone except you that we are NOT saying we are made perfect by the flesh, but it does say we are made perfect... By the Spirit!

When we say this, you reply we are teaching works, and being made perfect by the flesh.

What you do not understand is the power of the gospel... Which is actually what saves us from this lost state, from this blindness, and this old nature. The power made available to us through faith is the power to stand strong and be as he is. It actually has power to make us overcomers through Christ! A gospel with power, who would've thought!

You are the one that says we are made perfect by the Spirit and then indicates that your flesh can never sin because you are waliking in the spirit.

I conclude that you will not admit that as long as you live in sinful flesh you still sin.

You have a problem as to what it means to walk in the Spirit. -- A child of God who is endwelled by the Holy Spirit is walking in that same Spirit. That is why Paul said "if they have the Holy Spirit." --- But the flesh follows the law of the sinful nature and will do so until it dies.

You are really a piece of work. You preach to all they can be sinless in the flesh and then you say that you have never said you are sinless. Then you say it is your job to kick, prod, insist that others can be sinless too if they try hard enough and all the while you know you are not sinless in the flesh.

You are the only one who keeps saying this, no one has said we are made perfect by the flesh, we are made perfect by the Spirit, that is why Paul tells us that he has not yet attained, but he keeps moving forward to perfection.

Paul is trying to point out to readers of the Bible, that we now have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by which we can be made in the likeness of Christ, that we do not need to keep the OT laws, by which men tried to remain sinless, which was impossible, only because they did not have His Spirit indwelling them. Now we do, and now we are partakers of the His divine nature - these are the things we need to know in order to live our lives in Christ! We need to know we are overcomers, the Bible says - we are overcomers, we are more than conqueorors - in Christ.

When we have people preaching that there is no power in the Holy Spirit living in us, we are His temple, then it's a defeated life already! There is no bearing fruit, there is no growing in love and faith. You have ignored all that God said that you COULD be in Christ.

Yes you are. You keep saying we can, by our efforts, walk sinless while living in sinful flesh.

The child of God is born of the Spirit of God and can not sin. However his/her flesh has a sinful nature because it was born of the flesh and will sin. The flesh still follows the law of sin.