The word, "Doctrine"

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aspen

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Hi not helpful Aspen,

I read your post. It didn't answer my question and neither does this one. :(

It was a sincere question. I was hoping for a sincere answer.

Then you must have adopted Stranger’s method of discussion - asking questions, demanding answers, and never accepting clearly stated answers.

Boring

And it led me to have to ignore Stranger.
 
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Marymog

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Then you must have adopted Stranger’s method of discussion - asking questions, demanding answers, and never accepting clearly stated answers.

Boring

And it led me to have to ignore Stranger.
Hi Aspen,

I was sincere when I asked what you what you meant in your original statement by transcending doctrine that we have learned. I did not understand it.

You NEVER said "start using what we have learned to love one another" in your original post soooooo let's not pretend that your original post was a "clearly stated answer". It clearly wasn't and what you allege you "stated" in your original post was not "stated" soooo let's not pretend it was and treat Mary like an idiot.

Putting the words from your original post AND your clarification post's together I believe what you are saying is that we should take what we have learned (doctrine) and put it to use by loving one another.....Put into practice what we have learned may be a good summary? :rolleyes:

If that is what you mean I don't understand how the word "transcend" plays into this.....that is the confusing part to me.

Sooooo what do we do with those that have learned a false doctrine and are trying to put it to use?

Mary

PS.....You can put me on your ignore list if you want. It won't hurt my feelings. If my words are hurting your feelings it would probably be best to ignore me. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings. :(
 

Willie T

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Hi troll,

Golly, you must not know either.
Actually, I do. Neither you nor I were taught "doctrine" at the feet of the Apostles. We got it from men. And it was not the writings of "THE EXCLUSIVELY AUTHORIZED" Church Fathers. If that were the case, there would not be something like 43 different Creedal Doctrines adhered to, and taught by, a variety of Denominations numbering around a thousand times that amount.

If all we have ever done is listen to and believe the teachings our esoteric denomination tells us is the honest-to-goodness truthful teaching of the very "Church Fathers" Jesus, Himself, anointed and appointed to pass on to future generations...… then we have likely done nothing more than absorbed a different variation of misunderstanding than the people at the church down the block learned from the "DOCTRINE" THEIR leaders swear to them is the "only true teaching."

Limiting yourself to just the "doctrine" peddled by your own particular brand of Christianity is a sure-fire way of guaranteeing you probably have YEARS of un-learning to clean out of your mind, and to replace with what you really should go out and learn more accurately from the wealth of information we have available to us. There are volumes out there to be read...…. and many of them may be written by people we have been told are stone-cold heretics. Are we so limp-minded that we will just accept that they are, or are we going to find out for ourselves?

Common sense should tell us that if 43 different creeds all say different things, (or even just 2 Creeds), that someone has to be wrong..... and maybe it's ALL of them. But you will never know simply by burying your head in the sands of only one denomination's way of seeing things.
 
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amadeus

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@Marymog
Marymog said:
Hi Amadeus,

I do have an interest. That is why I ask so many, what I believe are, legitimate questions. If I didn't have an interest I wouldn't be asking.

Your answers to me are discombobulated and contradicting. That is why I keep asking them sometimes using different variations of the same question.
I very glad you really have an interest, but that really makes no difference in my answers. For learning of the things of God to occur His participation is required as only He gives any real increase. Neither you nor I can successfully teach or transfer His message to another person whose ears are blocked. As a student of the scriptures do you not know that?

You keep on pushing me for a better or different answer, but the answer really lies with God. He may or He may not give the answer through me. Since you cannot understand I would again suggest asking Him directly. But before you do remember what is written:


On the one hand the scripture reads this way:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

But then on the other hand, we need to remember what is meant here:

"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." James 4:3

When our purpose is not right, God will not feed us His good Word.

A good teacher knows how to adapt to their students learning abilities and change their teaching methods so their students can better understand what knowledge they are trying to impart on their students. I am trying to learn from you so I may grow in my walk with Him.
Are you really trying to learn or are you looking to point out what you consider errors in my walk with Him? Search your own heart on this.

What may work well in natural teaching may not always work so well in the things of God.
Without the Holy Spirit being allowed to work on both sides, teacher and student, God is limited.


You suggested it is a game. That is not how I look at it. I think we could learn something from each other. You seem to only want to teach. If that is what you want to do then adapt to your students learning ability because you have this student confused.
Respectfully, Mary

Here on this forum for some it is effectively a game even though they might not call it that. Each one has already made up his mind and participates primarily to win the battle rather than to share ideas and increase everyone in the things of God. For me surrender to the Holy Spirit is required, both for me and for the other person in a conversation. You say that I only want to teach, but that is not so I do want to learn.

Unfortunately you are coming to me too strongly with the teachings of the CC which you embrace. You cannot see the possiblity of God working as He does with me. This is one reason we are not communicating better that we are. I was there and deeply involved in the CC but for me that ended several decades ago. I learned much from the nuns and from one particular priest in those days, but for me there can be no going back. God has removed me several times, each one more distant from where I was then.

My regular communication with God is now on a one on one basis which I only briefly touched on as a practicing Catholic. I know that some Catholics do serve God closely, but God has called me to a different way. In that different way, you cannot hear me because you are too strongly attached to the organization rather than to God... at least that is how I see it. Me repeating and using different words won't break down the barrier you have raised. That is between you and God. May God richly bless you as you walk with Him.
 
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amadeus

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Slow down cowboy.....YOU are the one who said "to me it is an unwinnable game."

Sooooo don't suggest that little ol' Marymog thinks it's a game.

I look forward to your retraction.

Mary
If it is not a game to you I am really glad but the lines of communication between us remain blocked on certain issues.
 
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amadeus

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According to Scripture you are also answerable to the Church and if you have the wrong answer the Church has the authority to treat you as a pagan or tax collector: Matthew 18:17

I have asked Him. He told me your doctrine in some areas is opposite of what Christ taught.
The Church, Mary, is the Body of Christ, which has as it Head, our Lord Jesus. All of the parts of the Body are to be subject to the Head. To be a perfectly fitted part subject always and completely to the Head is my goal. How does a person get there other than by continuous surrender? The toes need to get along with, cooperate with and love the fingers, but they [that is we], each part of the Body are to be subject to the Head... not to the fingers.
 
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Marymog

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Actually, I do. Neither you nor I were taught "doctrine" at the feet of the Apostles. We got it from men. And it was not the writings of "THE EXCLUSIVELY AUTHORIZED" Church Fathers. If that were the case, there would not be something like 43 different Creedal Doctrines adhered to, and taught by, a variety of Denominations numbering around a thousand times that amount.

If all we have ever done is listen to and believe the teachings our esoteric denomination tells us is the honest-to-goodness truthful teaching of the very "Church Fathers" Jesus, Himself, anointed and appointed to pass on to future generations...… then we have likely done nothing more than absorbed a different variation of misunderstanding than the people at the church down the block learned from the "DOCTRINE" THEIR leaders swear to them is the "only true teaching."

Limiting yourself to just the "doctrine" peddled by your own particular brand of Christianity is a sure-fire way of guaranteeing you probably have YEARS of un-learning to clean out of your mind, and to replace with what you really should go out and learn more accurately from the wealth of information we have available to us. There are volumes out there to be read...…. and many of them may be written by people we have been told are stone-cold heretics. Are we so limp-minded that we will just accept that they are, or are we going to find out for ourselves?

Common sense should tell us that if 43 different creeds all say different things, (or even just 2 Creeds), that someone has to be wrong..... and maybe it's ALL of them. But you will never know simply by burying your head in the sands of only one denomination's way of seeing things.
Hi Willie,

I agree with you. Neither you nor I were taught "doctrine" at the feet of the Apostles. We have the writings of men that were taught at the feet of the Apostles so their writings hold greater weight then any other men you and I could name. A good starting point for any Christian to find "sound doctrine" is to start with those men; not the men of the Reformation. I am not sure from where you get the "43 different Creedal Doctrines" number from but I believe you are an honest person and have done your research so I will believe you; for now.

Who decides what Christians have to un-learn and which Christians are limp minded? I believe you are, you believe I am. Who's right? If we are, as you suggest, supposed to find out for ourselves and make that decision for ourselves then that makes us (the individual) the arbitrator of what is sound doctrine. Do you feel comfortable making that decision? I don't!! Scripture says the Church is the arbitrator.

Based on your "43 different creeds" number I agree with you; "someone has to be wrong." You speak as if "burying your head in the sands of only one denomination's way of seeing things" is a bad thing. I think looking at the doctrines of all the different denominations and cherry picking the doctrines YOU think are biblical is a bad thing. It's called cafeteria Christianity. Being a cafeteria Christians makes me the arbiter of truth. I don't feel comfortable doing that. Do you?

I believe Scripture. Scripture says there is "sound doctrine" to follow and to be taught and we are to avoid those that teach a "false doctrine". Scripture says the Church (singular) is the pillar and foundation of truth. Not you. Not me. The Church!! So for me to pick and choose what I personally believe is sound doctrine (cafeteria Christianity), which is what you are suggesting, is not what Scripture teaches.

Mary
 

Marymog

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If it is not a game to you I am really glad but the lines of communication between us remain blocked on certain issues.
Soooooo your not even willing to admit that YOU called it a game and falsely accused me?

Hmmmmm.........:(
 

Marymog

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The Church, Mary, is the Body of Christ, which has as it Head, our Lord Jesus. All of the parts of the Body are to be subject to the Head. To be a perfectly fitted part subject always and complete to the Head is my goal. How does a person get there other than by continuous surrender? The toes need to get along with, cooperate with and love the fingers, but they [that is we], each part of the Body are to be subject to the Head... not to the fingers.
Cute words.....no substance!

The Church, like Scripture says, has the authority to treat us as a pagan or tax collector.

Using your theory I have a question for you: Which part of that "body of Christ" has the authority to treat someone that way?

Patient Mary
 

aspen

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Hi Aspen,

I was sincere when I asked what you what you meant in your original statement by transcending doctrine that we have learned. I did not understand it.

You NEVER said "start using what we have learned to love one another" in your original post soooooo let's not pretend that your original post was a "clearly stated answer". It clearly wasn't and what you allege you "stated" in your original post was not "stated" soooo let's not pretend it was and treat Mary like an idiot.

Putting the words from your original post AND your clarification post's together I believe what you are saying is that we should take what we have learned (doctrine) and put it to use by loving one another.....Put into practice what we have learned may be a good summary? :rolleyes:

If that is what you mean I don't understand how the word "transcend" plays into this.....that is the confusing part to me.

Sooooo what do we do with those that have learned a false doctrine and are trying to put it to use?

Mary

PS.....You can put me on your ignore list if you want. It won't hurt my feelings. If my words are hurting your feelings it would probably be best to ignore me. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings. :(

Mary, I am glad that you are being sincere. I think you provided a fine summary of my original post. I do not think you are an idiot. I do worry that you may jump to conclusions about posts you read without first attempting to sort out meaning. I am a decent writer and I do not try to create puzzles.

I think it is really helpful if you are interested in understanding a post I have written, which isn’t as clear as it could be, to do exactly what you did in your last post - you summarized what you knew and asked me about what was not clear. It helps me know if you are serious or not.

I apologize for misinterpreting your words and I am happy to explain my point as much as I can. We may not agree and that is fine.

I am using the word transcend to denote growth. Like a first grader, learning to read by sounding out words, we also need a period of time to learn the basic of our doctrine (I was an adult when I joined the CC, so I remember spending quite a bit of time reading!). And, once again, as the child ages, they become more proficient readers and rather than sounding out words, they only read words long enough to recognize them and the narrative forms in their minds like a movie - they have transcended the language, but not thrown it away. I believe we do the same thing with doctrine when we start loving others in a Christian context.

I remember when I was working as a youth minister in a Protestant Church, right during the time I was investigating Catholicism, and I went to a Richard Foster talk with the church staff. Foster was making a larger point and used ‘heart change’ as a description of being born again. My minister looked at the staff and asked “what does he mean by heart change?”......here was a man who after 30 years in the pulpit, had not transcended the mechanics of his religion

As far as dealing with people who have not learned the correct doctrine - we will know them by their fruit - if it is love, they are for us, not against us - they are advancing the kingdom in spite of their failings - aren’t we all to some extent
 
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amadeus

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Soooooo your not even willing to admit that YOU called it a game and falsely accused me?

Hmmmmm.........:(
What I was calling a game was more general than that. I was talking about the forum and presumed you were involved in the same thing. If you were not, I apologize.
 

Marymog

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What I was calling a game was more general than that. I was talking about the forum and presumed you were involved in the same thing. If you were not, I apologize.
I was not involved....Apology accepted! :rolleyes:
 
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amadeus

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Cute words.....no substance!

The Church, like Scripture says, has the authority to treat us as a pagan or tax collector.

Using your theory I have a question for you: Which part of that "body of Christ" has the authority to treat someone that way?

Patient Mary
No substance for you? For me there is. Draw your conclusions as you will, Patient Mary.

Jesus is still the Head and as such I leave it in His capable hands since for me there is now no one else. For these past 10 months I have been disconnected from any church group outside the Internet. Do with that also what you will, Patient Mary.
 
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Marymog

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Actually, I do. Neither you nor I were taught "doctrine" at the feet of the Apostles. We got it from men. And it was not the writings of "THE EXCLUSIVELY AUTHORIZED" Church Fathers. If that were the case, there would not be something like 43 different Creedal Doctrines adhered to, and taught by, a variety of Denominations numbering around a thousand times that amount.
Hi Willie,

You intrigued me so much with your statement (highlighted in red) that I had to do some research. I now THINK I know what you mean. There are multiple denominations with their own creeds. All those creeds are different which means they all could not have been passed down thru the generations via Apostolic Succession.

Is that a good summary of what you are saying?

Sincerely, Mary
 

Marymog

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No substance for you? For me there is. Draw your conclusions as you will, Patient Mary.

Jesus is still the Head and as such I leave it in His capable hands since for me there is now no one else. For these past 10 months I have been disconnected from any church group outside the Internet. Do with that also what you will, Patient Mary.
Once again....a lot of words but no answer.

I thought you would be able to defend your theory and teach me something....:(
 

Willie T

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Hi Willie,

You intrigued me so much with your statement (highlighted in red) that I had to do some research. I now THINK I know what you mean. There are multiple denominations with their own creeds. All those creeds are different which means they all could not have been passed down thru the generations via Apostolic Succession.

Is that a good summary of what you are saying?

Sincerely, Mary
Fairly close. If everyone claims they are exclusively correct, is anyone?
 
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Willie T

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Hi Willie,

I agree with you. Neither you nor I were taught "doctrine" at the feet of the Apostles. We have the writings of men that were taught at the feet of the Apostles so their writings hold greater weight then any other men you and I could name. A good starting point for any Christian to find "sound doctrine" is to start with those men; not the men of the Reformation. I am not sure from where you get the "43 different Creedal Doctrines" number from but I believe you are an honest person and have done your research so I will believe you; for now.

Who decides what Christians have to un-learn and which Christians are limp minded? I believe you are, you believe I am. Who's right? If we are, as you suggest, supposed to find out for ourselves and make that decision for ourselves then that makes us (the individual) the arbitrator of what is sound doctrine. Do you feel comfortable making that decision? I don't!! Scripture says the Church is the arbitrator.

Based on your "43 different creeds" number I agree with you; "someone has to be wrong." You speak as if "burying your head in the sands of only one denomination's way of seeing things" is a bad thing. I think looking at the doctrines of all the different denominations and cherry picking the doctrines YOU think are biblical is a bad thing. It's called cafeteria Christianity. Being a cafeteria Christians makes me the arbiter of truth. I don't feel comfortable doing that. Do you?

I believe Scripture. Scripture says there is "sound doctrine" to follow and to be taught and we are to avoid those that teach a "false doctrine". Scripture says the Church (singular) is the pillar and foundation of truth. Not you. Not me. The Church!! So for me to pick and choose what I personally believe is sound doctrine (cafeteria Christianity), which is what you are suggesting, is not what Scripture teaches.

Mary
MM,
You seem to like to research things. I do not know this answer, but perhaps you could tell us if the timeframes of the writing of these various creeds that we attribute to men who sat at the Apostle's feet relates accurately to the life spans of both the "teachers" and the "students" who penned the creeds.


I'm going by this statement I once read: "The earliest known mention of the expression "Apostles' Creed" occurs in a letter of AD 390."
 
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Philip James

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. I do not know this answer, but perhaps you could tell us if the timeframes of the writing of these various creeds that we attribute to men who sat at the Apostle's feet relates accurately to the life spans of both the "teachers" and the "students" who penned the creeds.

I'm sorry to butt in,

I'll leave you and Mary to discuss creeds, but I'll give you a sample of one who 'sat at the apostles feet':

Pray for all the saints. Pray also for kings and powers and
princes and for them that persecuteand hate you and for the
enemies of the cross
, that your fruit may be manifest among all
men
, that ye may be perfect in Him.

Polycarp 13:1
Ye wrote to me, both ye yourselves and Ignatius, asking that if any
one should go to Syria he might carry thither the letters from you.
And this I will do, if I get a fit opportunity, either I myself, or
he whom I shall send to be ambassador on your behalf also.

Polycarp 13:2
The letters of Ignatius which were sent to us by him, and others as
many as we had by us, we send unto you, according as ye gave charge;
the which are subjoined to this letter; from which ye will be able to
gain great advantage. For they comprise faith and endurance and every
kind of edification, which pertaineth unto our Lord.

You too are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
 
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