that pretty much says it all .i will add one word RELATIONSHIP . we have theology the Bible to death complicated twisted confused indoctrinated . i am sick of dead cold dried up religion ..
The word, "Doctrine"
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Marymog
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I take that as a NO....
Sooooo Scripture says their is "sound doctrine". You don't have any sound doctrine......Does that concern you?
Mary
What is sound teaching and what isn't? Sound teaching makes someone able to do something. If I go study how to repair cars, I got sound teaching if I can look at a car and fix it. If I read all the books, listened to everything my teacher said and he said I was all set to go repairs, I would conclude he was a fraud if I looked at a car and realized I couldn't fix it. If I really botched it and made things worse, I'd think he was a really bad teacher with bad teachings.
Good doctrines should produce good results. Sound doctrines must show us how to love God or others better. Really bad doctrines can make people worse. I say judge a doctrine by its fruits.
Then there are some doctrines I can't see serve any purpose at all. They don't help anyone. Some also might not hurt -- they're irrelevant -- idle speculations so people can talk themselves into thinking they know things they really don't; but that can be serious if carried too far. Solomon might say, "Vexation of spirit." Heaping up "wisdom" for no purpose other than to feel wise. Pile them as high as the Tower of Babel -- see it works. Be like Eve, craving to be as wise as God. See if it works.
It is better to focus on those things we already know. Do the good when we see where we can. Work with what we have. Be grateful and faithful to God for what He's already given. If we do that, perhaps He'll reward us with more insights.
Good doctrines should produce good results. Sound doctrines must show us how to love God or others better. Really bad doctrines can make people worse. I say judge a doctrine by its fruits.
Then there are some doctrines I can't see serve any purpose at all. They don't help anyone. Some also might not hurt -- they're irrelevant -- idle speculations so people can talk themselves into thinking they know things they really don't; but that can be serious if carried too far. Solomon might say, "Vexation of spirit." Heaping up "wisdom" for no purpose other than to feel wise. Pile them as high as the Tower of Babel -- see it works. Be like Eve, craving to be as wise as God. See if it works.
It is better to focus on those things we already know. Do the good when we see where we can. Work with what we have. Be grateful and faithful to God for what He's already given. If we do that, perhaps He'll reward us with more insights.
I am not so certain you comprehend what I am saying.I take that as a NO....
Sooooo Scripture says their is "sound doctrine". You don't have any sound doctrine......Does that concern you?
Mary
Waiting on him
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Faithful in the little things first.
Marymog
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Ummmm....I THINK I do.....You rely on the Holy Spirit to guide you and teach you into all truth.
Since your "truth" is different than the Apostolic and Church Fathers and probably most of the men of the Reformation.....who did the Holy Spirit lie to? YOU or THEM?
Mary
What truth does the Holy Spirit teach? His Word.
Why are you so bound up about doctrine? It's about Jesus that should be the focus. About our Father reconciling us to Him through the Blood of Jesus.
Doctrine can be misconstrued by man....the message of salvation through Christ cannot be truthfully misunderstood.
Exactly, and with that in mind, it doesn't matter where we find ourselves at the moment since we can count on moving forward.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I think there are several key terms that trigger Protestants, and ignite a tribal response - often times the terms are used as sort of a secret code to discover if the Protestant is a real Christian. Does he or she belong to our tribe - the correct Christians? Or is the person an other? They might be naive, confused or a heretic....time will tell.
Church - correct answer is, “Church is not a building! It is the invisible collection of ‘true Christians’ that rejects all earthly authority and turns to a singular message from God’s word, the Bible” the message is to distrust all teachings from clergy.
Doctrine - correct answer is, doctrine is man’s way of explaining God and is to be tested constantly before it is ultimately deemed to be of man or of God. If it is mentioned in the Bible, it is generally trusted, but as soon as it is acted on, it is often deemed as a ritual, which is roundly rejected.
Ritual - correct answer is that all rituals is manmade and therefore bad - it falls under the category of mechanical, vain, and legalistic attempts to reach God. If your attempts to imitate Christ get viewed or, god forbid, labeled as a ritual - you better cease and desist immediately. Ironically, repetitive, written prayers are certainly viewed as ritualistic, yet repetitive songs are viewed as legitimate worship so it tends to be a perspective thing - it is important to know the tribe you are talking to before answering.
Prayer - the correct answer is that prayer is for God alone. Any suggestion that prayer can be viewed as a conversation with saints, relatives or friends who are with God after their death with trigger the ‘Catholic Red Alert’, which is ultimately the most critical of all alerts - being viewed as ‘too Catholic’ is definitely one of the worst labels a tribe can receive and if a neighbor has any whiff of catholic doctrine within them - just run.
Works - the correct answer is, works are always bad if the word salvation is also in the conversation. No works can be involved because immediate bragging will ensue. Anything description of works must be followed immediately by at least ten minutes about the Grace of God completing this work within you so that His work can be competed and He receives the highest glory for the completion of the work so that His completed work can bless others and bring Him alone the glory He deserves alone; him alone, not me deserves any credit, I am but a worm.....
Church - correct answer is, “Church is not a building! It is the invisible collection of ‘true Christians’ that rejects all earthly authority and turns to a singular message from God’s word, the Bible” the message is to distrust all teachings from clergy.
Doctrine - correct answer is, doctrine is man’s way of explaining God and is to be tested constantly before it is ultimately deemed to be of man or of God. If it is mentioned in the Bible, it is generally trusted, but as soon as it is acted on, it is often deemed as a ritual, which is roundly rejected.
Ritual - correct answer is that all rituals is manmade and therefore bad - it falls under the category of mechanical, vain, and legalistic attempts to reach God. If your attempts to imitate Christ get viewed or, god forbid, labeled as a ritual - you better cease and desist immediately. Ironically, repetitive, written prayers are certainly viewed as ritualistic, yet repetitive songs are viewed as legitimate worship so it tends to be a perspective thing - it is important to know the tribe you are talking to before answering.
Prayer - the correct answer is that prayer is for God alone. Any suggestion that prayer can be viewed as a conversation with saints, relatives or friends who are with God after their death with trigger the ‘Catholic Red Alert’, which is ultimately the most critical of all alerts - being viewed as ‘too Catholic’ is definitely one of the worst labels a tribe can receive and if a neighbor has any whiff of catholic doctrine within them - just run.
Works - the correct answer is, works are always bad if the word salvation is also in the conversation. No works can be involved because immediate bragging will ensue. Anything description of works must be followed immediately by at least ten minutes about the Grace of God completing this work within you so that His work can be competed and He receives the highest glory for the completion of the work so that His completed work can bless others and bring Him alone the glory He deserves alone; him alone, not me deserves any credit, I am but a worm.....
Marymog
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Ummmmm......would you care to TRY and answer my question:
Since your "truth" is different than the Apostolic and Church Fathers and probably most of the men of the Reformation.....who did the Holy Spirit lie to? YOU or THEM?
Marymog, as you already know the Holy Spirit does not lie. Why do you ask a question which suggests that the Holy Spirit lied to someone? There are no simple black and white answers to every question which every person is able to ask or answer or even understand. We are to live by faith rather than by knowledge. We are at different levels in our walks with God and we are, or are to be, different parts of the Body of Christ. It is simple to God. Is it also always simple to men?
Well since the Holy Spirit NEVER ONCE said anything about Purgatory, or devotion to Mary, or praying to the saints, or adopting patron saints (or a host of other legends), draw your own conclusions.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Marymog
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Hi Amadeus,
I will make my point in a different way since the way I made my point has befuddled you.
Either you and your ilk are right about what are the necessary for salvation interpretations of Scripture (i.e. Real Presence, Baptism etc.) or the Apostolic Fathers are right about them. Both of you can't be right. Scripture says, "For the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own desires". Do you, Amadeus, believe that the Apostolic Fathers did not put up with sound doctrine, had itching ears and followed teachings that suited their own desires? Do you, Amadeus, believe the Holy Spirit guided you to the truth in your belief/practices/doctrines OR the Apostolic Fathers?
Where does Scripture say "we are to live by faith rather than by knowledge"?
Since @Enoch111 and @aspen "like" your post they must agree with you soooooo maybe they can help you answer my very simple questions....
Can you explain to me what it means to be on a "different levels in our walks with God"? I don't understand what that means.
Mary
Ref: 2 Timothy 1:13, 1 Timothy 4:6, 1 Timothy 6:3, 2 Timothy 4:3, Titus 1:9, Titus 2:1, Titus 2:7
Marymog
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Hi Enoch,
The Holy Spirit didn't reveal those teachings to you personally. Does that mean they shouldn't be teachings of The Church?
Curious Mary
You are simply talking about people, be they Apostolic Fathers long returned to dust, or Protestants on this forum, or Catholics on this forum. I would say without hesitation that no two of us are the same in all respects. The Truth, according to everyone of this group, who believes in God and His Son, is Jesus. Again while we likely agree on that no two of the same group will have precisely the same understanding on every point as to what and who Jesus, the Truth, is. Without full understanding, hopefully all of us love Him anyway. All of us that love Him are right, so then not just those defined by your "both" but all of us are right. Is not Jesus to be our first love?
Why would you insist in separating us further from one another than we already are? Should there be more division and splintering? Why not start with this, that Jesus is our first love?
Are you are inferring by your questions that we cannot all love Jesus and put Him first even though we may disagree on details? Surely we can. I do not believe that Catholic Church teaches that all Protestants are lost. Why would you presume it because we do not agree on every point?
As to what those you call Apostolic Fathers believe, we can only know what they wrote. Will that tell us what was in their hearts? No more than I by reading your writings or you by reading my writings can tell without doubt what is in the heart of the other. God has given me some truth as I am sure He gave those men some truth. You want me to make a choice between what God has given me and what God gave them. Of course as you already knew I have to choose myself just like everyone else would do. You may say you choose them, but that is also effectively choosing yourself, isn't it?
"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2
Is either of the two of us the Lord? Can either of us definitely ponder the hearts as He does? I don't claim that for me.
So why not let be it leaving it alone until the harvest when God will send His reapers to separate where necessary any tares from the wheat. I am not a reaper. Are you?
How do you read these verses?
"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" John 3:36
"Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith." Habakkuk 2:4
"But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Gal 3:11
"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17
And then we see here where to look for the end of our faith:
"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:1-2
Why do you play games and ask dishonest questions like the Pharisees of old apparently to trip someone up rather than simply seeking the God's truth whatever it is and who ever holds it? Does only the formal Catholic Church possess any of God's truth?Can you explain to me what it means to be on a "different levels in our walks with God"? I don't understand what that means.
Levels?:
There are babies, toddlers, teenagers, young adults and old folks in the flesh. Why would you not understand there are comparable levels spiritually or among those who walk with God? Read chapter 12 of I Corinthians for what Apostle Paul wrote about parts of the Body of Christ. Different functions with different gifts operating to accomplish God's purposes. But, in spite of a baby's eventual mature function within the Body of Christ, he does not as a baby perform the work of a mature part of the Body. The hands of an infant cannot and do not do the work of a teenager... and so forth...
"Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus." II Tim 1:13
What sound words have we heard from Apostle Paul who penned those words? It does not say in "knowledge" but "in faith and love". If an Apostolic Father did write it down right, we still could not know what was deep in that writer's own heart, could we?
"If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained." I Tim 4:6
And this good minister [Timothy or another] will then not by his own ability for sure, but rather by the Holy Spirit in him, "put the brethren in remembrance of these things". The proper nourishment for him [Timothy or another] is in attained "words of faith and good doctrine". These things come from where but from our Lord Jesus as they are quickened in a person by the Holy Spirit, right?
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;" I Tim 6:3
What are the words of our Lord Jesus Christ? Are they the words in quotation marks on a printed Bible page [in red in some Bibles] identified as have been spoken by Him about 2000 years ago, or are they what the Holy Spirit has brought to Life with us? The "wholesome words" are those words which nourish what Paul called the "new man" are they not? Without the Holy Spirit, where is the nourishment? Without the Holy Spirit, where is the Life?
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@Marymog Continued:
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" II Tim 4:3
Would you presume that everyone on this forum who has disagreed with you is coming "after their own lusts" in support of false teachers who give them just exactly what they want? You would probably say that you yourself love God. Would you deny that all in disagreement you may in a measure also love God? Do you believe that anyone who disagrees with your Catholic ways has missed God and is only following the lust the eye, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life [I John 2:16]? It would seem to me to be lot of trouble, when a person could simply throw away his Bible and dive into those attractions with both feet forgetting about this forum and God... unless you really believe we, those who you oppose, are children of the devil. Do you believe that?
"Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." Titus 1:9
"The faithful word as he hath been taught"? Taught by whom? For it to be sound doctrine would not the teach need to be the Holy Spirit or a person led by the Holy Spirit? Do such people exist only within the ranks of the formal Catholic Church organization?
"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:" Titus 2:1
Any one can quote what is written in the Bible [any version in any language] and miss God's message to men contained in what he reads. For those words to become "sound doctrine" would you not agree again that only people led by the Holy Spirit could understand and correctly transfer to others by words, God message? Surely you would not say that only active devout members of the Catholic Church organization will qualify?
"In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity," Titus 2:7
So then again can a person have such a "pattern of good works" if not actively involved as a member of the visible Catholic Church which we see around us?
Would you presume that everyone on this forum who has disagreed with you is coming "after their own lusts" in support of false teachers who give them just exactly what they want? You would probably say that you yourself love God. Would you deny that all in disagreement you may in a measure also love God? Do you believe that anyone who disagrees with your Catholic ways has missed God and is only following the lust the eye, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life [I John 2:16]? It would seem to me to be lot of trouble, when a person could simply throw away his Bible and dive into those attractions with both feet forgetting about this forum and God... unless you really believe we, those who you oppose, are children of the devil. Do you believe that?
"Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." Titus 1:9
"The faithful word as he hath been taught"? Taught by whom? For it to be sound doctrine would not the teach need to be the Holy Spirit or a person led by the Holy Spirit? Do such people exist only within the ranks of the formal Catholic Church organization?
"But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:" Titus 2:1
Any one can quote what is written in the Bible [any version in any language] and miss God's message to men contained in what he reads. For those words to become "sound doctrine" would you not agree again that only people led by the Holy Spirit could understand and correctly transfer to others by words, God message? Surely you would not say that only active devout members of the Catholic Church organization will qualify?
"In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity," Titus 2:7
So then again can a person have such a "pattern of good works" if not actively involved as a member of the visible Catholic Church which we see around us?
Marymog
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Ummmm......I asked two very simple questions. I sure would like an answer to them:
Do you, Amadeus, believe that the Apostolic Fathers did not put up with sound doctrine, had itching ears and followed teachings that suited their own desires?
Do you, Amadeus, believe the Holy Spirit guided you to the truth in your belief/practices/doctrines OR the Apostolic Fathers?
Patient Mary
Some more thoughts on the word, "Doctrine."
Doctrine
(Gk. didaskalia [didaskaliva]). Act of teaching or that which is taught. The use of the term in Scripture, however, is broader than a simple reference to information passed on from one person to another or from one generation to the next. Christianity is a religion founded on a message of good news rooted in the significance of the life of Jesus Christ. In Scripture, then, doctrine refers to the entire body of essential theological truths that define and describe that message ( 1 Tim 1:10 ; 4:16 ; 6:3 ; Titus 1:9 ). The message includes historical facts, such as those regarding the events of the life of Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor 11:23 ). But it is deeper than biographical facts alone. As J. Gresham Machen pointed out years ago, Jesus' death is an integral historical fact but it is not doctrine. Jesus' death for sins ( 1 Cor 15:3 ) is doctrine. Doctrine, then, is scriptural teaching on theological truths.
Doctrine is indispensable to Christianity. Christianity does not exist without it. The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes the value and importance of sound doctrine, sound instruction ( 1 Tim 6:3 ), and a pattern of sound teaching ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). The apostles defended the faithful proclamation of the gospel ( Gal 1:8 ). They formulated Christian faith in doctrinal terms, then called for its preservation. They were adamant about the protection, appropriation, and propagation of doctrine because it contained the truth about Jesus Christ. Knowing the truth was and is the only way that a person can come to faith. So the apostles delivered a body of theological truth to the church ( 1 Cor 15:3 ). They encouraged believers to be faithful to that body of information they had heard and received in the beginning ( 1 John 2:7 1 John 2:24 1 John 2:26 ; 3:11 ), that "faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints'' (Jude 3). Believers, in general, were instructed to guard the faith, that is, to stand firm in sound doctrine ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). Pastors in particular were admonished to cleave to sound doctrine so that they could be good ministers of the gospel ( 1 Tim 4:6 ).
The use of the term "doctrine" in Scripture is important for at least three reasons. First, it affirms that the primitive church was confessional. The first generation of believers confessed apostolic teaching about the significance of the life of Christ. They delivered a body of information that included facts about Christ with interpretation of their importance. Second, the use of the term reflects development of thought in the primitive church. Didaskalia [didaskaliva] is used in the Pastorals with reference to the sum of teaching, especially of that which had come from the lips of the apostles. Doctrine plays a small role in Judaism and in the New Testament apart from the Pastoral Epistles, and yet is very important in the latter. By the time of the Pastorals the apostolic message had been transformed into traditional teaching. Third, it affirms the indispensable link between spirituality and doctrine. Christianity is a way of life founded on doctrine. Some disparage doctrine in favor of the spiritual life. Paul, however, taught that spiritual growth in Christ is dependent on faithfulness to sound doctrine, for its truth provides the means of growth ( Col 2:6 ). The apostle John developed three tests for discerning authentic spirituality: believing right doctrine ( 1 Jo 2:18-27 ), obedience to right doctrine (2:28-3:10), and giving expression to right doctrine with love (2:7-11). Faithful obedience and love, then, are not alternatives to sound doctrine. They are the fruit of right doctrine as it works itself out in the believer's character and relationships.
Sam Hamstra, Jr.
Bibliography. J. G. Machen, Christianity and Liberalism; D. F. Wells, No Place For Truth: Or Whatever Happened to Evangelical Theology; TDNT, 2:160-63.
Doctrine
(Gk. didaskalia [didaskaliva]). Act of teaching or that which is taught. The use of the term in Scripture, however, is broader than a simple reference to information passed on from one person to another or from one generation to the next. Christianity is a religion founded on a message of good news rooted in the significance of the life of Jesus Christ. In Scripture, then, doctrine refers to the entire body of essential theological truths that define and describe that message ( 1 Tim 1:10 ; 4:16 ; 6:3 ; Titus 1:9 ). The message includes historical facts, such as those regarding the events of the life of Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor 11:23 ). But it is deeper than biographical facts alone. As J. Gresham Machen pointed out years ago, Jesus' death is an integral historical fact but it is not doctrine. Jesus' death for sins ( 1 Cor 15:3 ) is doctrine. Doctrine, then, is scriptural teaching on theological truths.
Doctrine is indispensable to Christianity. Christianity does not exist without it. The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes the value and importance of sound doctrine, sound instruction ( 1 Tim 6:3 ), and a pattern of sound teaching ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). The apostles defended the faithful proclamation of the gospel ( Gal 1:8 ). They formulated Christian faith in doctrinal terms, then called for its preservation. They were adamant about the protection, appropriation, and propagation of doctrine because it contained the truth about Jesus Christ. Knowing the truth was and is the only way that a person can come to faith. So the apostles delivered a body of theological truth to the church ( 1 Cor 15:3 ). They encouraged believers to be faithful to that body of information they had heard and received in the beginning ( 1 John 2:7 1 John 2:24 1 John 2:26 ; 3:11 ), that "faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints'' (Jude 3). Believers, in general, were instructed to guard the faith, that is, to stand firm in sound doctrine ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). Pastors in particular were admonished to cleave to sound doctrine so that they could be good ministers of the gospel ( 1 Tim 4:6 ).
The use of the term "doctrine" in Scripture is important for at least three reasons. First, it affirms that the primitive church was confessional. The first generation of believers confessed apostolic teaching about the significance of the life of Christ. They delivered a body of information that included facts about Christ with interpretation of their importance. Second, the use of the term reflects development of thought in the primitive church. Didaskalia [didaskaliva] is used in the Pastorals with reference to the sum of teaching, especially of that which had come from the lips of the apostles. Doctrine plays a small role in Judaism and in the New Testament apart from the Pastoral Epistles, and yet is very important in the latter. By the time of the Pastorals the apostolic message had been transformed into traditional teaching. Third, it affirms the indispensable link between spirituality and doctrine. Christianity is a way of life founded on doctrine. Some disparage doctrine in favor of the spiritual life. Paul, however, taught that spiritual growth in Christ is dependent on faithfulness to sound doctrine, for its truth provides the means of growth ( Col 2:6 ). The apostle John developed three tests for discerning authentic spirituality: believing right doctrine ( 1 Jo 2:18-27 ), obedience to right doctrine (2:28-3:10), and giving expression to right doctrine with love (2:7-11). Faithful obedience and love, then, are not alternatives to sound doctrine. They are the fruit of right doctrine as it works itself out in the believer's character and relationships.
Sam Hamstra, Jr.
Bibliography. J. G. Machen, Christianity and Liberalism; D. F. Wells, No Place For Truth: Or Whatever Happened to Evangelical Theology; TDNT, 2:160-63.
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Marymog
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No games here kiddo. I have read chapter 12 and it has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about sooooooo your point befuddles me.
I don't get your "comparable levels" theory. Your theory has NOTHING to do with the writings of the Apostolic Fathers being more trustworthy than yours.
Do you believe what you write holds more weight then what the Fathers wrote?
Simple question.....I sure would like a simple answer.
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