I smell it too and I'm sure others can smell it also.
I find it odd you just throw out a bone and then ignore everything posted about it.
Isn't that trolling?
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
I smell it too and I'm sure others can smell it also.
There's no contradiction unless you misunderstand the scriptures as pacifists (you) do.that's why He had the authority to overrule scriptures that existed before He was manifested in the flesh... that's why He could say, “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." even though by doing so he was contradicting Exodus and Leviticas...
The self-righteous anger on this thread is stifling - where is it coming from? It is like a putrid smell.
The other smell is this.
Everyone of the pick and chose bible club are the someones that teach love is all thats needed. The love club and the write your own bible club are the same.
The next comment from them will be we can not love and accept the apparently unloving things in the bible both. Isn't that right aspen. Yesterday you convinced me you have real issues with the OT. Your pick and choose method disregards everything you don't interpret as loving. Is God suppose to love the serpent for temping Eve? You yourself said, If you were Job nether would you have a loving attitude with God, I think you said " justified anger" . So what is God to do with those that corrupt and dispute his creation as well as his judgments? I would guess you don't believe Revelations as well or the scripture that reads vengeance is mine says the Lord. You seem to have missed the fact that justice is the act of justifying those that love God and His ways, not those that love everything.
I'm rather happy to see this thread, it revels that the same people that question the bible are the someones that teach love is the solution to everything. What a perfect combination, after you get everyone on board the love train no one will ever question a persons doctrine again, that would not be the loving thing to do, you may offend someone. The same as aspen finds the OT offensive.
So lets all get on the love train and in love, agree with one another with what ever part of the bible you like or dislike is fine by me. Then we will all be like God ourselves. Just like the serpent told Eve. What a not so great plan, thanks but no thanks
Love is certainly the answer - it is the Kingdom of God in our hearts. I am not sure why the ideas seems so bitter to you Jacob.
If you really did read my post, you would have seen that I do in fact, accept everything in the Bible - I have mentioned several times that every word is inspired and is supposed to be there. I just think or modern interpretation of the scripture is inaccurate. It is also colored by our denominations and crazy standards we expect the Bible to live up to:
1. It must be interpreted literally or your not a Christian
2. It must support science or science is wrong.
3. It must present a vengeful God, rather than a merciful God who was trying to communicate to vengeful people.
4. It must be a direct, word for word, dictation from God, rather than an inspired document written by sinful men.
Once again, I do not have a real issue with the OT - I do have an issue with certain Christians who have hijacked the OT to support their own angry, zealous agenda. And do not worry about the serpent - God loves him already - He loves his entire creation - unfortunately, the fact that He does love so unconditionally really makes those who hate Him, hate even more. Hell is going to be the merciful choice for these haters to spend eternity.
Also, if God really struck up a bet with one of his servants that involved the killing of my family - yes I would be pissed off - I think it is sad that you cannot admit that you would be as well.
You know, it is interesting - the Jewish people did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah because they were expecting a warrior and Jesus was a lover. Perhaps the same thing will happen in the Christian world when Jesus returns. It sure would humble a lot of hearts and piss off a lot of self righteous people.
Once again, I do not have a real issue with the OT - I do have an issue with certain Christians who have hijacked the OT to support their own angry, zealous agenda.
Say aspen when you use words and phrases like these
bitter
angry, zealous agenda. ---------------------I like your next reply, God loves the serpent?
And do not worry about the serpent - God loves him already - He loves his entire creation
haters
hate
pissed off
piss off a lot of self righteous people
Its clear you don't love those that disagree with you. So why must I hold to your standard that you yourself don't follow? :blink: Did the love train leave without you?
Jesus said, they lay heavy burdens on the people but they themselves don't lift a finger, is this you aspen?
I never accused God of murder.
Where do you see that I'm saying he's not following his own ethics?
God tells us not to murder - yet, you seem to have no problem with your God murdering thousands of people. God tells us to forgive our enemies - yet you seem to have no problem with God sending people to Hell for eternity. We are all sinful, yet God decides to justify and sanctify us, but hardens Pharaoh's heart as a means to an end.
Have to agree with Jacob on the murder part.
Murder means essentially plotting to kill someone - in the American system you have first and second degree, but both are characterized by the intent. Then you have (in our system) manslaughter which is without the intent; IE: vehicular manslaughter by driving a car beyond in a dangerous manner. Legally speaking, this is very important. The Hebrew from the OT bears this out when it comes to murder - it literally means to lay in wait and kill. If we expand murder to mean killing, then the hypothetical situation of a someone intending to kill or maim a child, spouse, parent, or other loved one becomes murder.
God clearly never plotted to kill any person when it comes to hell. I understand that you do not make the distinction between killing and murder, but legal systems do.
However, it could be argued that the God of the Old Testament commit murder in a sense of the word. (That's where I fail to see the reconciliation perspective.) God has killed before (always carrying out a just sentence), but even in that case it's the result of a crime (sin or many sins) and not specifically a murder. He did not lay in wait for a specific person or group, he pronounced a righteous judgment.
It wasn't just my opinion.
Well, if you do not perceive me as loving, I believe Jesus calls you to love me anyway.
Being angry and pissed off are human emotional reactions - they do not nullify love.
Also, I may disagree with a person's idea or pattern of behavior, but I separate it from my feeling about the person. Sometimes I fail and I ask for patience and forgiveness from God.
Well, if you do not perceive me as loving, I believe Jesus calls you to love me anyway.
Being angry and pissed off are human emotional reactions - they do not nullify love.
Also, I may disagree with a person's idea or pattern of behavior, but I separate it from my feeling about the person. Sometimes I fail and I ask for patience and forgiveness from God.
[sup]34[/sup] But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. [sup]35[/sup] Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, [sup]36[/sup] “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
[sup]37[/sup] Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’[sup][d][/sup] [sup]38[/sup] This is the first and great commandment. [sup]39[/sup] And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[sup][e][/sup] [sup]40[/sup] On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
I apologize for taking the topic off track but I have been wanting for an opportunity to speak about this love train theology that seems to have taken a firm foot hold here. It accured to me in this thread that those who promote it and also use it to quiet sound doctrine are the sameones that dispute the validity of the bible.
There is a distinct difference in the two commands Jesus replied to when asked, "what is the greatest command" The second is not like the first. Heres some proof in loving God with your whole heart and soul and mind as it says in the first.
Matthew 10:34 [sup]34[/sup] “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. [sup]35[/sup] For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; [sup]36[/sup] and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[sup][e][/sup] [sup]37[/sup] He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. [sup]38[/sup] And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. [sup]39[/sup] He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
The second says, to love your neighbor as yourself. Now that is very different than the first. I don't know about you but Im not keen on loving myself. I know myself way to well. I actually get great comfort a peace in helping others whether they be christian or not. The reality is I give others a greater degree of latitude than I do myself. Like I said I know myself and its not something I like. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
The two commands to love God and love others as yourself are very different. People that fire up the love train at every piece of doctrine they don't like are simply not interested in hearing it and try to convict you, to shut you up. Why? because in this thread they don't believe in the validity of the bible.
The same is true for those that teach love is the only doctrine. They can't tell the difference between loving God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind , and loving others as yourself.
If you love God the same as you love yourself, you probably think you are God. Then you might try picking and choosing the bible passages that God intended and didn't intend. I suggest you try walking on water, let me just say your walking on frozen water, as soon as the Son comes out your going to end up wet.
There are different kinds of love, the love train people need to wake up to that false teaching.
You know, used to get frustrated when people like Bishop Spong wrote books about improving Christianity by taking the Theism out of it - seriously! He wants to take that little tiny part of Christianity that we do not need anymore - hardly worth mentioning, you know, the God part!
Outrageous - yes
Now I am seeing something just as crazy here - except it isn't God that is being removed from Christianity - it is love. How sad. The only thing we were created to do is love God and our neighbors and now it appears that Christians who seem to really care about the Bible are belittling God's Kingdom in our hearts. Love is our sanctification.
Love is the Kingdom and the work of the Kingdom. We are indeed called to love our neighbors as ourselves - which should be a freeing awesome commandment - not some slog though false humility about how we really shouldn't love ourselves tooooo much. If you really know yourself you will learn patience, kindness, and empathy for others. And the true way to know yourself is to know God - once you feel God's love for you, it is impossible not to love yourself.
You are totally missing the correct interpretation of hating your parents and family - Jesus is talking about hating the tradition we grow up in. The people He was talking to were raised to believe the law - He was trying to show them a new way to think and feel - love is the new standard. Break away from old ways of thinking about heritage and identity and religion.
Also, Jesus didn't say love your enemies lesser than you love your friends which is lesser than you love your family (oops - we are supposed to hate our family), which is lesser than you love God. Why are you trying to make this so complicated? These are the mental gymnastics I refuse to do - it is a waste of time - we are supposed to be loving.
Also, knowing yourself and knowing God are the keys to loving yourself and true humility, which is to know your strength and weaknesses.
I said it before and it is worth repeating
1. If reading the Bible is feeding your ego and encouraging to accuse those around you rather than love, you are in trouble because accusing is the role of the Devil, not man.
2. If we are not loving (practicing our sanctification) it doesn't matter how many verses we memorize we are going to miss the Messiah on His return trip - just like the Pharisees and Sadducees did during His first trip - they knew their scriptures, but the couldn't recognized the source of them starring them in the face because they forgot the most important part of their religion - love.
I apologize for taking the topic off track but I have been wanting for an opportunity to speak about this love train theology that seems to have taken a firm foot hold here. It accured to me in this thread that those who promote it and also use it to quiet sound doctrine are the sameones that dispute the validity of the bible.
There is a distinct difference in the two commands Jesus replied to when asked, "what is the greatest command" The second is not like the first. Heres some proof in loving God with your whole heart and soul and mind as it says in the first.
Matthew 10:34 [sup]34[/sup] “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. [sup]35[/sup] For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; [sup]36[/sup] and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’[sup][e][/sup] [sup]37[/sup] He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. [sup]38[/sup] And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. [sup]39[/sup] He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
The second says, to love your neighbor as yourself. Now that is very different than the first. I don't know about you but Im not keen on loving myself. I know myself way to well. I actually get great comfort a peace in helping others whether they be christian or not. The reality is I give others a greater degree of latitude than I do myself. Like I said I know myself and its not something I like. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
The two commands to love God and love others as yourself are very different. People that fire up the love train at every piece of doctrine they don't like are simply not interested in hearing it and try to convict you, to shut you up. Why? because in this thread they don't believe in the validity of the bible.
The same is true for those that teach love is the only doctrine. They can't tell the difference between loving God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind , and loving others as yourself.
If you love God the same as you love yourself, you probably think you are God. Then you might try picking and choosing the bible passages that God intended and didn't intend. I suggest you try walking on water, let me just say your walking on frozen water, as soon as the Son comes out your going to end up wet.
There are different kinds of love, the love train people need to wake up to that false teaching.
There is a balancing act - which balance to me is a hallmark of our Father.