The Written Word

[Davy]

Can I just throw something into this conversation- is ' scripture ' and ' the bible ' the same - when Timothy wrote the words ' all scripture ...ect ect - the bible as we know it did not exist. When he wrote about ' knowing scripture from childhood ect ....... The bible did not exist. Culturally he was talking about the scriptures that did exist at the time and would have been part of the Old Testament
When Jesus himself mentions scripture- did he mean the bible or scripture of his time ?

The written Scripture that existed in the days of Jesus and His disciples was the Old Testament Books. That doesn't mean it was all just the old covenant, for the major and minor prophets, the Psalms, Chronicles, Kings, etc., are also included. Zechariah 14 declares the events of Christ's second coming, so no one can really say the OT Books are limited when it comes to declaring God's Salvation Plan through His Son, just because we don't find the name 'Jesus' in the Old Testament Books. The main difference is the New Testament Books are the Witness of what was prophesied first in the Old Testament Books. In Jeremiah, God proclaimed the day when He would make a new covenant with the house of Judah and the house of Israel, which is repeated in NT Hebrews as a NT Witness to its fulfillment. Even in the Book of Genesis, there is still prophesy that has yet to be fulfilled today.

 

[Davy]

When one puts something before God, it becomes and idol, all we see here is men defending and idol. It is His Spirit that reveals things to us and leads us into the truth, He alone is our witness. These forums even this post shows how "scripture" and "study" cause much confusion, and God is not the author of confusion, but these posts say He is...

That kind of idea is un-Biblical. It is actually against God's Holy Writ, because of what Paul declared to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

The Holy Spirit is Who wrote God's Holy Writ. He did it through holy men like Peter said in 2 Peter 1:21.

So The Holy Spirit is not going to go against His Own written word. We can trust it just as much as if God were speaking directly to us.

Those who struggle to understand God's Holy Writ are either new babes and must learn to discipline themselves in it, or they listen to something else instead of The Holy Spirit.

The Word was written by The Holy Spirit, and must be understood by The Holy Spirit touching us. Prayer, study, and discipline is what God requires of us to reveal understanding to us. That's why Apostle Paul said this also...

2 Tim 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV

So I don't know where you're getting your ideas from, suggesting treatment of God's Holy Writ as an idol, unless you are listening to men's doctrines that are falsely preaching that the believer doesn't really even need... to read and study their Bible. Those seek to lord it over God's people, and only the weak minded would allow them to do that.

 

[mjrhealth]

So The Holy Spirit is not going to go against His Own written word. We can trust it just as much as if God were speaking directly to us.

So teh bible is greater than God, like i said idols, as for teh Holy Spirit,

1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

and

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

see its there in your bible just like this bit

Joh_5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

and so you have none. Its is

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

everything after Pentecost was supposed to be by the Spirit but men are carnal even still today , eye yet cannot see, ears yet cannot hear.

 

[Davy]

So teh bible is greater than God, like i said idols, as for teh Holy Spirit,

1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
....

You've made yet another error. That "man's wisdom" Apostle Paul was speaking of is not about God's Holy Writ. It's about the secular doctrines of men outside of Christ Jesus.

Obviously, you have yet to understand John 1...

John 1:1-13
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, Which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not.

11 He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.

12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
KJV

Do you even read The New Testament Books???

 

[mjrhealth]

You've made yet another error. That "man's wisdom" Apostle Paul was speaking of is not about God's Holy Writ. It's about the secular doctrines of men outside of Christ Jesus.

Obviously, you have yet to understand John 1...

error, Gods word was always with Him it will always exist the bible was not in the beginning, have you not read,

Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

BEcause Jesus is Gods word and in Him is our life, and because "christians" refuse to go to Him they have no life,why do you think you are all here bickering and arguing over

Luk 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.

always arguing, never taking things to God, all mens wisdom, mens understanding.

You have a teacher, teh Holy Spirit who was sent to those who receive Him to teach them teh truth, it is not far from you if you seek it.

Joh_6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Joh_6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

 

[Davy]

BEcause Jesus is Gods word and in Him is our life, and because "christians" refuse to go to Him they have no life,why do you think you are all here bickering and arguing over
....

That suggests you are NOT... a Christian; in your OWN words you blaspheme Christians.

 

[mjrhealth]

That suggests you are NOT... a Christian; in your OWN words you blaspheme Christians.

why because i tell you it as it is

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

what was it He says

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

the bible does as it says, it point you to te hone who is life, it testifies of Him, yet still today with all he has done, men still refuse to go to him, mostly out of ignorance because if men found out they have Christ now for them selves all the churches would be empty and teh devil would really hate that

 

[soul man]

Thank you, I understand everyone wants an answer to something they may have never heard before.
But I can't answer everyone, I would spend all my time trying to talk people through something tbey already disagree with. I don't do that, I spend alot of time writing and referencing these little threads, I just don't have time. When someone else says I think this is what he means and speaks for me I have no problem with that because I have many sites going at one time. I do enjoy commenting but I cant get into long discussions if I feel there going no where, thanks again.

 

[mjrhealth]

Thank you, I understand everyone wants an answer to something they may have never heard before.
But I can't answer everyone, I would spend all my time trying to talk people through something tbey already disagree with. I don't do that, I spend alot of time writing and referencing these little threads, I just don't have time. When someone else says I think this is what he means and speaks for me I have no problem with that because I have many sites going at one time. I do enjoy commenting but I cant get into long discussions if I feel there going no where, thanks again.

same circle never changes

 

[APAK]

This is Soul Man's thread so I am not sure I should answer for him. But the answers to APAK's questions do exist... Or at least are strong in support.



John 5:39 KJV
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Galatians 3:24 KJV
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

In John 5 it doesn't say "all", however Jesus didn't say search some of the scripture. It stands to reason that since Jesus was rebuking the crowd, it was said as a challenge. It wouldn't be much of a challenge if Jesus cherry picked the verses.

In Gal 3 it says the law. Not all the OT was law. I realize that... But the over concept is that the law brought us to Christ and the new covenent.



2 Timothy 3:15 KJV
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

So it does seem reasonable that in verse 16 Paul was speaking of Christ.



Ephesians 1:22-23 KJV
And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, [23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

It may not say he is all in all but he filleth it.

Questions 4 and 5 I don't have answers for. But the verses I gave I do believe should strongly be considered as backing up Soulman's statements-in-question.

Does every verse in the OT point to Jesus? On its own, probably not. I do believe however that as a whole they do.

They were reasonable questions and worth considering. The scriptures I gave may not fully answer such carefully worded statements. Jesus didn't say "all scripture testifies of him" but he did say scriptures testify of him. Paul in Eph didn't say Jesus is "the all in all" but he did say " he filleth all in all". Perhaps at least this will add to the conversation.

FHII: I appreciate your efforts although they may seem reasonable to you they are not to me and so I gracefully disagree with them. For example, Ephesians 1:22-23 has nothing to do with Jesus being all-in-all, because he is not and never can be. The Father will eventually be this and must as per 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Ephesians 1:22-23 is all about the Father placing all things under Jesus, giving him authority if you will, for this age and the Kingdom age until it is finished. Jesus is still on mission to stamp out sin and death for good.

In I Cor 15:28 Jesus returns the Kingdom back to the Father. The concept of all-in-all can be a hard one to grasp because it is reveals the method of spiritual communication in the heavens, in the future, for the saints. When Jesus prayed that as he was in the Father as the Father was in him he wanted this for the believer as well. And this will happen in the future for the saints in the heavens. ScottA introduced a over-looked/taken for granted verse in John speaking of the spirit that reveals the truth via the spirit of the Father... In these verse, Jesus partakes or uses the spirit of God or of our Father without the Father's input. He remains silent. The Father allows Jesus to independently use his spirit to speak to his believers, and he communicates the same way today.

When Jesus ascended to the heavens in his new body, he possessed and was given this power to speak to us even without the interference from God's own spirit, the source of all divinity and spiritual communication (will not speak on his own authority -the Father owns his own spirit).

So when the Kingdom is returned back to the Father we will have the same power to communicate in the heavens as Jesus can today, using the Fathers divine spirit and power. So, the intent of I Cor 15:28 is that all spiritual creatures will partake and use the same spirit of the Father as to 'communicate.' God's spirit will then be all-in-all. His spirit will run inside every heavenly body (angels, saints, Jesus) and each can freely communicate in the spirit of the Father. The angels have always done this in the heavens.

I hope this above explanation can help you to understand I do not take any scripture too lightly. I try to minimize implicit scripture support or deductions. I do not try to attach a spiritual puzzle piece to another if only three of the four tabs fit. It does not work that way for me. Of course we are all learning and the spiritual jig-saw puzzle is still incomplete for me.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[FHII]

FHII: I appreciate your efforts although they may seem reasonable to you they are not to me and so I gracefully disagree with them. For example, Ephesians 1:22-23 has nothing to do with Jesus being all-in-all, because he is not and never can be. The Father will eventually be this and must as per 1 Corinthians 15:28.

I start work in 3 minutes so I will have to reread it later. However, it was just one of three problems I addressed. What about the others?

 

[Windmillcharge]

But, a matter one the individuals interpretation comes into play.
We have a direct message that we have to get fixed in us as the born again. Hence the confusion in Christianity.

The confussion in Christianity is of inturepreting the word. Imagine the confussion if it was all about 'What the Spirit said to ME!'

 

[Windmillcharge]

Windmillcharge:
Wow, I did not require the spirit to confirm my suspicions on scripture errors in this thread, it told me first. That is why I am addressing it now. I believe there have been some liberties taken and some misinterpretations of scripture have occurred to suit one's own theories of the written word. There are glaring misuses of scripture here.

APAK

Do point them out. If I have missused scripture I want to know.

 

[Davy]

So teh bible is greater than God, like i said idols, as for teh Holy Spirit,

1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

and

Joh_16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

see its there in your bible just like this bit

Joh_5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

and so you have none. Its is

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

everything after Pentecost was supposed to be by the Spirit but men are carnal even still today , eye yet cannot see, ears yet cannot hear.

Why are there so many here on this forum that like to make things up? I never even implied that God's Holy Writ is greater than He is!!!

No thanks for ignorant conversation, I don't care to participate.

 

[ScottA]

ScottA:

I would like to gracefully disagree on this kind of thinking. This thinking can or does already affect the meanings of many scripture passages. In one extreme example, one could then say that all scripture in the OT, especially the ones of God that he directly uses to mankind are all Jesus' words anyway, so why not just replace God with Jesus etc.

This goes way too far for me and I cannot believe in this extreme view and meaning.

So I would like to not open a huge can of worms on this subject that I or anyone else would not like to get mixed up in.

The 'word' can be an elusive English symbol. And as a student of scripture, always learning and maturing, I really do not want to jump to these kinds of conclusions for the term 'word.'​

I agree to disagree s'il vous plait.


Bless you,

APAK

I am sorry that you believe that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God" is too extreme. It's not.

 

[mjrhealth]

Why are there so many here on this forum that like to make things up? I never even implied that God's Holy Writ is greater than He is!!!

No thanks for ignorant conversation, I don't care to participate.

REally, youd be surprised...

 

[APAK]

I am sorry that you believe that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God" is too extreme. It's not.

ScottA:

I see you needed to lay down the John 1:1, and most you should have probably added the John 1:2 and John 1:14 (first part only-with emphasis) gauntlets. When al least you should have written John 1:1 correctly.

(Joh 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

Verse order and arrangements of ‘words’ do matter.

Let me given an example; the last one.

So, when one reads Rev 19:13 where Jesus is clearly given the title, ‘the word of God,’ are we then at liberty to alter it, and say that Jesus is ‘the Jesus of Jesus,’ or ‘the Jesus of God.’ No, we cannot!

The real meaning, is that Jesus (executed the salvation plan) of God by shedding his blood on the cross. Words or symbols do have exact or near exact meanings.

We just cannot go around blindly substituting Jesus for God in scripture.

Do these clear things up a bit?

I won’t continue this type of discussion as it only will continue to upset people, because they either do not believe it, don’t understand it and will not ask in a friendly tone if they do ask, or they do not want to ‘hear’ what the spirit says to them.

(Rev 19:13) He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. (ESV)

Bless you,

APAK

 

[ScottA]

ScottA:

I see you needed to lay down the John 1:1, and most you should have probably added the John 1:2 and John 1:14 (first part only-with emphasis) gauntlets. When al least you should have written John 1:1 correctly.

(Joh 1:1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

Verse order and arrangements of ‘words’ do matter.

Let me given an example; the last one.

So, when one reads Rev 19:13 where Jesus is clearly given the title, ‘the word of God,’ are we then at liberty to alter it, and say that Jesus is ‘the Jesus of Jesus,’ or ‘the Jesus of God.’ No, we cannot!

The real meaning, is that Jesus (executed the salvation plan) of God by shedding his blood on the cross. Words or symbols do have exact or near exact meanings.

We just cannot go around blindly substituting Jesus for God in scripture.

Do these clear things up a bit?

I won’t continue this type of discussion as it only will continue to upset people, because they either do not believe it, don’t understand it and will not ask in a friendly tone if they do ask, or they do not want to ‘hear’ what the spirit says to them.

(Rev 19:13) He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. (ESV)

Bless you,

APAK

Indeed, it does make things clear. "Woe to you lawyers!"

 

[mjrhealth]

What is so hard to understand, when God speaks His words, they belong to Him, they are His, they are not mine nor anyone elses, therefore Jesus who is a manifestation of Gods word, it literally God, because Him being Gods word is a part of God. My ex cannot tell the difference between me and my second eldest son, she has to ask who is speaking because he sounds just like me. Now unless I give him permission to speak for me, his words have no authority, where as Christ was given permission to speak for God and so teh words that He speaks have authority as does teh words form The Holy Spirit, all in agreement all from God, And it still stands even today, when a man is sent by God, He is given permission to speak for God, and when those words come from God by teh Spirit they too carry Gods authority and when rejected, than God is rejected as they are from God.

 

[FHII]

I hope this above explanation can help you to understand I do not take any scripture too lightly. I try to minimize implicit scripture support or deductions. I do not try to attach a spiritual puzzle piece to another if only three of the four tabs fit. It does not work that way for me. Of course we are all learning and the spiritual jig-saw puzzle is still incomplete for me.

Bless you,

I do get that... I get that you don't take any scripture lightly and I commend you for that. I don't neccesarily understand all of your point of view, but then again I am a pretty unique individual on this board. I am not one who believes in the trinitarian theory or traditional rapture theory. I see heavy influences of both in your doctrine. So yea.. I have a different point of view.

Again, i want to say this was one of 5 points of contention you put forth. I commented on three and you commented only on one.