The Written Word

[APAK]

I do get that... I get that you don't take any scripture lightly and I commend you for that. I don't neccesarily understand all of your point of view, but then again I am a pretty unique individual on this board. I am not one who believes in the trinitarian theory or traditional rapture theory. I see heavy influences of both in your doctrine. So yea.. I have a different point of view.

Again, i want to say this was one of 5 points of contention you put forth. I commented on three and you commented only on one.

FHII:

Let me be careful and answer the last one I believe you spoke of, 2 Tim 3:15 as I previously addressed the OP of 2 Tm 3:16-17 and said it was not specifically speaking of Christ, ok?

here are the verses plus:
(2Ti 3:12) Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
(2Ti 3:13) while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
(2Ti 3:14) But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
(2Ti 3:15) and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
(2Ti 3:16) All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
(2Ti 3:17) that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work. (All ESV)

I want to go back to verse 12 thru verse 17 to capture the entire thought..

Paul is desperate to know that the believers in his midst are well-equipped with all the words of God or scripture (some written down and some spoken to them at that time) both OT and NT scripture, the gospel that brought them salvation through faith, as hard and difficult times are coming upon them.
Paul wanted to tell them to keep using scripture, as maybe their lives depended on it, the inspired words (plural) of God, with the end goal of being an effective tool for performing God's will even through hard and deceptive times.

Now my previous answer to the OP was only for verse 16 and 17. The suggestion by the OP that by substituting in Jesus for the word, God, in verse 16 makes Paul's intent clear is nonsense. It causes utter confusion.

Paul is speaking of the words, plural, as in words that form statements and sentences that communicate etc. verse 16 should not be tampered with by interchanging God for the word, Jesus.

Yes, you are correct when you say that verse 15 is directly related to Jesus. He is related because the words (Plural again) speak of how to be saved and how to continue in faith..etc... But the OP saying in the next verse (16) that Jesus is profitable etc is nonsense to even an atheist linguistics or language expert perspective.

I hope I answered your last query completely for you. Let me know.

Oh, I'm not the rapture type in any way shape of form. It is a 19th century invention as it ran in parallel when modern Zionist was conceived.

And if this OP is an example of some type of trinity support then it has a new extreme meaning. I'm not a true fan of it anyway. It does not work (does not live up to scriptural scrutiny). It was an attempt to describe God Almighty on terms with the Jesus, and they never did have a handle of what the spirit really was all about. It was conceived from a pagan view point. They should update it and think ahead of what Jesus is like right now in the heavens, and what the saints will be like and how they will communicate with Jesus in the heavens. Hint: Jesus is not God almighty right now or ever has been, he is like an super-powerful angel. It is found in the scriptures. We will be like Jesus. Now how does the pagan-derived trinity model stack up to this reality? It cannot...

I used to be a Catholic once and I never was taught it anyway. Maybe I was one of a few living, that was never exposed to it, in New Zealand at that time. I never did pay much attention to the creed(s) as well. They seems to be 'off a bit.'

I remember at middle school, a nun (school teacher type) looked directly at me and said (my name) what does Genesis 1:1 say, in front of the entire class. I answered correctly word for word. It had to be word for word correct. I was never told that it was really Jesus that created everything.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[amadeus]

That kind of idea is un-Biblical. It is actually against God's Holy Writ, because of what Paul declared to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

The Holy Spirit is Who wrote God's Holy Writ. He did it through holy men like Peter said in 2 Peter 1:21.

You don't quite understand where our friend @mjrhealth is coming from... His ideas are definitely biblical, but not necessarily agreeing the logical conclusions you or others may be draw from the written scriptures. I'll write my own ideas here, with which he may or may agree. It does not come from man's logic alone.

The written scriptures taken alone are dead, [ink printed on paper], and both components alone are dead even as Jesus hanging on the cross after saying "It is finished" was a dead body until he resurrected. The resurrection of the scriptures into the Living Word can occur but only in a person by the Holy Spirit in that person. The Bible unopened on a shelf is a dead book even though it contains truth.

Men were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the scriptures downs. Without the Holy Spirit similarly inspiring a man, that man cannot understand the message of God even though he is reading or studying the Bible. There really are some atheists who know the Bible better than some followers of Jesus. The difference is the quickening of the Holy Spirit.

So The Holy Spirit is not going to go against His Own written word. We can trust it just as much as if God were speaking directly to us.

Those who struggle to understand God's Holy Writ are either new babes and must learn to discipline themselves in it, or they listen to something else instead of The Holy Spirit.

The Word was written by The Holy Spirit, and must be understood by The Holy Spirit touching us. Prayer, study, and discipline is what God requires of us to reveal understanding to us.

The scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit.

That's why Apostle Paul said this also...

2 Tim 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV

What happens when a person reads scripture without the help of the Holy Spirit is this:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

So I don't know where you're getting your ideas from, suggesting treatment of God's Holy Writ as an idol, unless you are listening to men's doctrines that are falsely preaching that the believer doesn't really even need... to read and study their Bible. Those seek to lord it over God's people, and only the weak minded would allow them to do that.

My friend, the reason there are so many thousands of denominations based on the written scriptures, is because they have mixed messages or completely wrong messages due to either not hearing the Holy Spirit or only hearing the Holy Spirit part of the time.

This is why the apostle Paul wrote this:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

But people do it altogether too regularly. In most church settings [if not all] they teach people to quench the Holy Spirit of God. Not purposely perhaps, but nonetheless. Consider who determines the programs of church services before hand in just about in church you could name. It is not the Holy Spirit.

On the contrary, if there is a person sitting there who hears from God and he wants to stand and sing a song, or preach a sermon or simply testify, he has to quench the Holy Spirit until he is given the OK by a man or men who are acting for God without hearing from God in that same moment.

Our direction in such an assembly of God's people should be as per the following verse rather than from II Tim 2:15 :

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

We certainly are to study as an act of obedience, but our learning is to come from the Holy Ghost as it brings the dead scriptures we have read or heart to Life within us. People read the following verse and do not realize the most important thing it is saying to us:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

The very words we read on our Bible pages are dead letters until they are given Life by the Holy Spirit in us.

 

[Davy]

You don't quite understand where our friend @mjrhealth is coming from... His ideas are definitely biblical, but not necessarily agreeing the logical conclusions you or others may be draw from the written scriptures. I'll write my own ideas here, with which he may or may agree. It does not come from man's logic alone.

The written scriptures taken alone are dead, [ink printed on paper], and both components alone are dead even as Jesus hanging on the cross after saying "It is finished" was a dead body until he resurrected. The resurrection of the scriptures into the Living Word can occur but only in a person by the Holy Spirit in that person. The Bible unopened on a shelf is a dead book even though it contains truth.

Men were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the scriptures downs. Without the Holy Spirit similarly inspiring a man, that man cannot understand the message of God even though he is reading or studying the Bible. There really are some atheists who know the Bible better than some followers of Jesus. The difference is the quickening of the Holy Spirit.


The scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit.



What happens when a person reads scripture without the help of the Holy Spirit is this:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12


My friend, the reason there are so many thousands of denominations based on the written scriptures, is because they have mixed messages or completely wrong messages due to either not hearing the Holy Spirit or only hearing the Holy Spirit part of the time.

This is why the apostle Paul wrote this:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

But people do it altogether too regularly. In most church settings [if not all] they teach people to quench the Holy Spirit of God. Not purposely perhaps, but nonetheless. Consider who determines the programs of church services before hand in just about in church you could name. It is not the Holy Spirit.

On the contrary, if there is a person sitting there who hears from God and he wants to stand and sing a song, or preach a sermon or simply testify, he has to quench the Holy Spirit until he is given the OK by a man or men who are acting for God without hearing from God in that same moment.

Our direction in such an assembly of God's people should be as per the following verse rather than from II Tim 2:15 :

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

We certainly are to study as an act of obedience, but our learning is to come from the Holy Ghost as it brings the dead scriptures we have read or heart to Life within us. People read the following verse and do not realize the most important thing it is saying to us:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

The very words we read on our Bible pages are dead letters until they are given Life by the Holy Spirit in us.

Well, if you'll notice, I mention that point in my posts that understanding must come by The Holy Spirit.

One must believe on The Father through His Son first, and then ask for understanding through prayer, and then get down to disciplined 'STUDY' in all of His Holy Writ.

So is that last part to be left out, just because some think others study their Bible too much??? No, of course not.

Yet possibly, you are not aware there are some so-called churches out there which preach we don't need to study God's Holy Writ, and they like to confuse Paul's meaning in 2 Timothy 2:15 to study with dead letter ideas, and that Eccl.12:12 verse you posted. Protestant Christianity separated from those Catholics centuries ago who keep God's Holy Writ out of the hands of the layman; should Protestants go back to them now and burn their own Bibles? No way!

According to Apostle Paul, we are to study to the level of being a "workman" in God's Holy Writ. Do you realize what that means? It means have a working knowledge of the Scriptures.

Furthermore, the reason why there's so many denominations is because of people who do NOT... open up God's Holy Writ for themselves to verify, and do not discipine themselves in it to become a workman. God warned us that He would use false ones to try us with. So those soothsayers getting support from brethren that choose to remain unstudied is certainly not caused... by becoming a workman in God's Holy Writ.

 

[aspen]

Studying the Bible is a waste of time if it distracts from loving neighbor

 

[twinc]

Studying the Bible is a waste of time if it distracts from loving neighbor

imho you have it exactly vice versa - twinc

 

[aspen]

imho you have it exactly vice versa - twinc

Loving people is a waste of time if we are reading the Bible?

Hmm.....weird since the sum of the law is loving others

 

[twinc]

Well, if you'll notice, I mention that point in my posts that understanding must come by The Holy Spirit.

One must believe on The Father through His Son first, and then ask for understanding through prayer, and then get down to disciplined 'STUDY' in all of His Holy Writ.

So is that last part to be left out, just because some think others study their Bible too much??? No, of course not.

Yet possibly, you are not aware there are some so-called churches out there which preach we don't need to study God's Holy Writ, and they like to confuse Paul's meaning in 2 Timothy 2:15 to study with dead letter ideas, and that Eccl.12:12 verse you posted. Protestant Christianity separated from those Catholics centuries ago who keep God's Holy Writ out of the hands of the layman; should Protestants go back to them now and burn their own Bibles? No way!

According to Apostle Paul, we are to study to the level of being a "workman" in God's Holy Writ. Do you realize what that means? It means have a working knowledge of the Scriptures.

Furthermore, the reason why there's so many denominations is because of people who do NOT... open up God's Holy Writ for themselves to verify, and do not discipine themselves in it to become a workman. God warned us that He would use false ones to try us with. So those soothsayers getting support from brethren that choose to remain unstudied is certainly not caused... by becoming a workman in God's Holy Writ.

actually the bible teaches that you do not need to study it provided you can simply simply believe - twinc

 

[mjrhealth]

@amadeus

Something like

Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

plenty of very leaned men in this world who dont know God yet can quote the bible backwards in ten different languages.

 

[twinc]

Loving people is a waste of time if we are reading the Bible?

Hmm.....weird since the sum of the law is loving others

where did you waste your time reading that - twinc

You don't quite understand where our friend @mjrhealth is coming from... His ideas are definitely biblical, but not necessarily agreeing the logical conclusions you or others may be draw from the written scriptures. I'll write my own ideas here, with which he may or may agree. It does not come from man's logic alone.

The written scriptures taken alone are dead, [ink printed on paper], and both components alone are dead even as Jesus hanging on the cross after saying "It is finished" was a dead body until he resurrected. The resurrection of the scriptures into the Living Word can occur but only in a person by the Holy Spirit in that person. The Bible unopened on a shelf is a dead book even though it contains truth.

Men were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the scriptures downs. Without the Holy Spirit similarly inspiring a man, that man cannot understand the message of God even though he is reading or studying the Bible. There really are some atheists who know the Bible better than some followers of Jesus. The difference is the quickening of the Holy Spirit.


The scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit.



What happens when a person reads scripture without the help of the Holy Spirit is this:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12


My friend, the reason there are so many thousands of denominations based on the written scriptures, is because they have mixed messages or completely wrong messages due to either not hearing the Holy Spirit or only hearing the Holy Spirit part of the time.

This is why the apostle Paul wrote this:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

But people do it altogether too regularly. In most church settings [if not all] they teach people to quench the Holy Spirit of God. Not purposely perhaps, but nonetheless. Consider who determines the programs of church services before hand in just about in church you could name. It is not the Holy Spirit.

On the contrary, if there is a person sitting there who hears from God and he wants to stand and sing a song, or preach a sermon or simply testify, he has to quench the Holy Spirit until he is given the OK by a man or men who are acting for God without hearing from God in that same moment.

Our direction in such an assembly of God's people should be as per the following verse rather than from II Tim 2:15 :

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

We certainly are to study as an act of obedience, but our learning is to come from the Holy Ghost as it brings the dead scriptures we have read or heart to Life within us. People read the following verse and do not realize the most important thing it is saying to us:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

The very words we read on our Bible pages are dead letters until they are given Life by the Holy Spirit in us.

there is a problem - a major and only one and that is all will agree with what you have stated but neither you nor others are prepared to accept that it applies to you or them and not just others imho - twinc

 

[aspen]

Twinc - having a conversation with you is sort of crazymaking - just saying

 

[FHII]

Loving people is a waste of time if we are reading the Bible?

Hmm.....weird since the sum of the law is loving others

No.

The first and greatest commandment is to love God. The second is to love others.

If you really love God you will learn about him. That's why reading the Bible is important. It tells us God's nature and what he wants from us. If you really love God, you will hunger and thirst to know as much about him as you can.

In the mean time, he also tells us how and why to love others.

 

[aspen]

No.

The first and greatest commandment is to love God. The second is to love others.

If you really love God you will learn about him. That's why reading the Bible is important. It tells us God's nature and what he wants from us. If you really love God, you will hunger and thirst to know as much about him as you can.

In the mean time, he also tells us how and why to love others.

Totally agree

 

[mjrhealth]

If you really love God you will learn about him.

Friends spend time with one another, thats why they are friends, a relationship requires 2 people, not a book,

Jas_2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 

[FHII]

Friends spend time with one another, thats why they are friends, a relationship requires 2 people, not a book,

That book that you don't say we need is his testament and is a letter from him to me. I am not going to forsake his testimony and his love letter. What else do I have to go on?

Funny thing... The Bible says to try the spirits to see where they are from. So when you think you have the Holy Ghost, you are supposed to question it to see if it is really from God. But I don't have a verse that ever says to question his Word.

 

[mjrhealth]

That book that you don't say we need is his testament and is a letter from him to me. I am not going to forsake his testimony and his love letter. What else do I have to go on?

Funny thing... The Bible says to try the spirits to see where they are from. So when you think you have the Holy Ghost, you are supposed to question it to see if it is really from God. But I don't have a verse that ever says to question his Word.

God gave us Jesus, is not that love enough for you, Jesus even died for us so that God could send us His Spirit, is not that enough for you? God by Jesus gave us all we need. Life through Jesus and Truth through His Spirit, but men have replaced them with a book.

Hi dear lets go to bed.. Sorry sweety i have this book about you ill c u later. Not much of a relationship is it?? No ten question on teh bible to enter into heaven.

 

[FHII]

Satan once had a conversation with Jesus. Jesus said, "it is written..." that shut Satan up. Satan didn't say, "well a relationship doesn't require a book!"

You on the other hand...

 

[FHII]

God gave us Jesus, is not that love enough for you, Jesus even died for us so that God could send us His Spirit, is not that enough for you? God by Jesus gave us all we need. Life through Jesus and Truth through His Spirit, but men have replaced them with a book.

God also gave us a book with his testament. Is that too much for you?

 

[FHII]

Folks... The temptatation of Jesus by Satan is pretty profound. The first time Jesus stymied Satan, it was by quoting the Bible. Jesus said, "it is written.." satan learned from that and tried it himself. But he was turned away again with "it is written". After the 3rd time Jesus had enough and again quoted the Bible.

God himself quoted the Bible to defeat Satan... Yet people today treat the Bible as if it was an old paperback novel...

The kind the drug store sells.

Anyway, Jesus used the Bible to beat Satan and Satan (as stupid as he is.. ) knew he couldn't compete.

The Bible is good enough for Jesus to quote. Its powerful enough to send Satan running. Yet it isn't good enough for some Christians.

 

[mjrhealth]

God also gave us a book with his testament. Is that too much for you?

Well dont you know it, we have what is it, over 40 000 denominations based on a book, all with there own doctrines and beliefs, is Christ divided, id God teh author of confusion, seems mankind ans become pretty confuse over a book simply because,

Joh_5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

and so you have none, and reading it, studying it wont get you closer to Jesus just fill your head with knowledge which "puffeth up. Revelation comes from God, when you are willing to ask and acccept with all your studying you know nothing.

Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

thats why God desires empty vessels with nothing to inhibit Him.

 

[FHII]

Well dont you know it, we have what is it, over 40 000 denominations based on a book

No... Its because 40000 are doing what seems right in their own eyes. If they followed the book there wouldn't be all those demonnations.

Don't you think its pretty funny that the verse you love to quote (John 5:40) comes right after a verse that says to search the scriptures?