The Written Word

[mjrhealth]

No... Its because 40000 are doing what seems right in their own eyes. If they followed the book there wouldn't be all those demonnations.

and teh rest are trying to figure it out for themselves. God gave you Jesus, He is with you all the time, just takes you to put down a book and say.Hi Jesus teach me". but men are to proud, teh bible. the dead letter has replaced teh living word, it has become an idol before God in mens hearts and even today, still"refuse" to go to Jesus, as for the devil, he has used that "book" for centuries to keep men from God, why do you think this forum exists, you simply wont ask,

you have not because you ask not.

 

[OzSpen]

But, a matter one the individuals interpretation comes into play.
We have a direct message that we have to get fixed in us as the born again. Hence the confusion in Christianity.

soul man,

I find this to be confusing language. The problem might be my Aussie lingo and Aussie accent, but your sentences here are convoluted, i.e. difficult to follow.

• What does 'a matter one the individuals interpretation' mean?
• What is the 'direct message that we have to get fixed in us as the born again'?
• What is the 'confusion in Christianity'? Do you have the supernatural solution that Christianity can use/claim immediately and the confusion will become clarity?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Can I just throw something into this conversation- is ' scripture ' and ' the bible ' the same - when Timothy wrote the words ' all scripture ...ect ect - the bible as we know it did not exist. When he wrote about ' knowing scripture from childhood ect ....... The bible did not exist. Culturally he was talking about the scriptures that did exist at the time and would have been part of the Old Testament
When Jesus himself mentions scripture- did he mean the bible or scripture of his time ?

Butterfly,

Why is 'Scripture' from, say 2 Tim 3:16-17 and what Jesus stated, "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me’ (John 13:18 NIV) not from the only Bible/Scripture available to Jesus and Paul, which was the OT?

Second Tim 3:15 (NIV) states: 'and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus'. Obviously this referred to the Old Testament only as the NT had not yet been compiled but was in the process of being written.

This we know that Peter considered the writings of Paul to be Scripture. He framed it in this kind of language:

15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction (2 Pet 3:15-16 NIV).​

I am not disagreeing or agreeing with anyone as per say, but sometimes it staggers me that Christians forget the context of time frames with regards to what was said and what existed. Timothy and the writers of the letters would have had only the written word that existed at the time, and it's in the context of that writing that they are referring. So Scripture to them would have meant something different to what it means to us today..............

That written word, the Scripture, was the entire OT:

The Dead Sea Scrolls—a collection of biblical and other texts from around the first century—have shown that our Old Testament existed in several forms at the time of Jesus. There could have been as many as four Hebrew-language versions: one that lies behind the Hebrew text of the Bible that Christians and Jews use today (the Masoretic Text); a second that lies behind the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which is called the Septuagint, or LXX (and is the Old Testament of the Orthodox churches today); a third distinctive Hebrew version of the Pentateuch (the first five books of our Old Testament) used by the Samaritans; and a fourth version scholars did not know existed until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls 50 years ago (Directions: What Bible Version Did Jesus Read? Christianity Today, April 26, 1999).​

Old Testament Scripture needs to be interpreted in context, in the light of the Israelites' culture, but the historical-grammatical-cultural interpretation of the OT by Paul and Jesus has to be according to the same principles of hermeneutics we have to use today.

Oz

 

[bbyrd009]

the only Bible/Scripture available to Jesus and Paul, which was the OT?

um, they referred to many extra-Biblical works, their def of "Scripture" was not the same as ours wadr

 

[amadeus]

Well, if you'll notice, I mention that point in my posts that understanding must come by The Holy Spirit.

Yes, I did notice, but my point was that you have been quick to say that our friend, @mjrhealth might not be a Christian. He may not have taken offence at that because so many who carry that label make no visible effort to be or to become Christ-like, which to me is what the word should mean. Of course as we see the word often does not mean that in the minds of too many people.

As to mjrhealth I have known him on forums for a very long time I have no doubt that he is a follower of Christ whether he insists on the bearing the label, Christian, or not. Who are we to say, "nay"?

One must believe on The Father through His Son first, and then ask for understanding through prayer, and then get down to disciplined 'STUDY' in all of His Holy Writ.

So is that last part to be left out, just because some think others study their Bible too much??? No, of course not.

Study is required as per the verse you cited, but as I believe no one should assume or presume that study of the scriptures alone will bring him into all of Jesus [Truth] that is needed. I did too much of that studying for years without the quickening of the Spirit and I ended up backsliding. God opened my eyes to my error. I cannot open anyone else eyes unless He sees fit to use me to do so.

The Word lies in the scriptures, but no only in the scriptures may it be found. Is God so limited or limiting as that? We are use what God has given us to accomplish what God wants us to accomplish. He has not given everyone equal portions of everything He has given to men. Some have more time, or more money, more opportunity, more education, more physical skill, more brain power, etc. and then some have been much less or even none of those. This is the reason why none of us is to sit in final judgment on anyone else. We do not know all that God given to each of them and we do not know what each of them is doing with what they have been given...

Yet possibly, you are not aware there are some so-called churches out there which preach we don't need to study God's Holy Writ, and they like to confuse Paul's meaning in 2 Timothy 2:15 to study with dead letter ideas, and that Eccl.12:12 verse you posted. Protestant Christianity separated from those Catholics centuries ago who keep God's Holy Writ out of the hands of the layman; should Protestants go back to them now and burn their own Bibles? No way!

According to Apostle Paul, we are to study to the level of being a "workman" in God's Holy Writ. Do you realize what that means? It means have a working knowledge of the Scriptures.

I understand there is a lot of garbage and/or misinformation being taught in many places ever since men first began to rebel against God and His Way and that this has continued even since the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. We still cannot force feed anyone "our" better way simply because we believe they are in error. It is quite likely that also are in a measure in error... Yes, I include myself.

Furthermore, the reason why there's so many denominations is because of people who do NOT... open up God's Holy Writ for themselves to verify, and do not discipine themselves in it to become a workman. God warned us that He would use false ones to try us with. So those soothsayers getting support from brethren that choose to remain unstudied is certainly not caused... by becoming a workman in God's Holy Writ.

The denominations exist because men walk at least in part in error. Failing to read available scripture may be one reason but another would be failing to partake of the Holy Spirit or failing to allow the gift of the Holy Spirit in us to lead us. Do we as His sheep not hear and recognize His voice? Some say they do and do not. Some hear and do not follow Him. Some listen too much to other voices that are not of God.

I met a man from Central America who spoke only Spanish and was illiterate in all languages. That is, he was unable to read or write even in his native Spanish. He had of course never read a Bible himself. In spite of that he had beautiful testimony about his walk with God. He heard from God through men and directly from God in spite of his inability to read. I have met other literate people who owned and/or had access to Bibles and did not know God so well in spite of having Bible knowledge.

 

[amadeus]

actually the bible teaches that you do not need to study it provided you can simply simply believe - twinc

But, dear twinc, we do need to know what to believe and what not to believe. For some their our walk with God begins in the scriptures, while for others it begins elsewhere. Where exactly we are to walk depends upon what part of the Body of Christ God has called us to be.

 

[twinc]

But, dear twinc, we do need to know what to believe and what not to believe. For some their our walk with God begins in the scriptures, while for others it begins elsewhere. Where exactly we are to walk depends upon what part of the Body of Christ God has called us to be.

the bible also teaches us that and both are wonderfully bound together at Jn 20:31 - imho - twinc

 

[amadeus]

the bible also teaches us that and both are wonderfully bound together at Jn 20:31 - imho - twinc

So then should not people read the Bible in order to find John 20:31 and any other verses which may be pertinent?

 

[twinc]

So then should not people read the Bible in order to find John 20:31 and any other verses which may be pertinent?

yes - it is essential that those who do or cannot simply believe read it - this would apply to the majority of cases imho - twinc

 

[aspen]

I am certainly not discounting the Bible. What I am cautious about is idolizing it or reducing it to a charm. I am more interested in the message of the Bible, these days - hermeneutics rather than exegesis

 

[bbyrd009]

I am certainly not discounting the Bible. What I am cautious about is idolizing it or reducing it to a charm. I am more interested in the message of the Bible, these days - hermeneutics rather than exegesis

then imo the two of you should "go to different towns, and stay in one house, and eat what they feed you; you will not run out of towns before I return."

i say this bc Hermen is as bad as Ex in most cases imo, at least when conducted from a flawed translation, which is virtually guaranteed

 

[Davy]

Yes, I did notice, but my point was that you have been quick to say that our friend, @mjrhealth might not be a Christian.

Well that certainly is a false accusation.

 

[aspen]

then imo the two of you should "go to different towns, and stay in one house, and eat what they feed you; you will not run out of towns before I return."

i say this bc Hermen is as bad as Ex in most cases imo, at least when conducted from a flawed translation, which is virtually guaranteed

Faith is an importance aspect of my Christian journey. I have faith that God speaks through the Bible. I think skepticism has it’s place, but too much is paralyzing and keeps you second guessing

 

[Davy]

actually the bible teaches that you do not need to study it provided you can simply simply believe - twinc

I don't find that idea written anywhere in God's Word. It's something you or some other man has made up.

 

[amadeus]

there is a problem - a major and only one and that is all will agree with what you have stated but neither you nor others are prepared to accept that it applies to you or them and not just others imho - twinc

Twinc, I certainly do accept that the scriptures may also apply to my use or misuse of them. Who among us is already an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer? Who can be? What did Jesus say? "It is written".

 

[bbyrd009]

Faith is an importance aspect of my Christian journey. I have faith that God speaks through the Bible. I think skepticism has it’s place, but too much is paralyzing and keeps you second guessing

i get you, but i could not allow anyone who has once translated faith as belief to translate for me any longer, although that was not always the case, the KJV was completely sufficient to my needs at one time, etc. i only replied that way for you, who strikes me as prolly moving from one pov there to the other as we speak; iow not sure how you would define "Bible" now, when i say Bible now i mean "Lexicon," for instance. And i would have to agree that it's all in There, prolly even in any translation even; up to a point anyway

 

[Butterfly]

Butterfly,

Why is 'Scripture' from, say 2 Tim 3:16-17 and what Jesus stated, "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill this passage of Scripture: ‘He who shared my bread has turned against me’ (John 13:18 NIV) not from the only Bible/Scripture available to Jesus and Paul, which was the OT?

Second Tim 3:15 (NIV) states: 'and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus'. Obviously this referred to the Old Testament only as the NT had not yet been compiled but was in the process of being written.

This we know that Peter considered the writings of Paul to be Scripture. He framed it in this kind of language:

15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction (2 Pet 3:15-16 NIV).​

That written word, the Scripture, was the entire OT:

The Dead Sea Scrolls—a collection of biblical and other texts from around the first century—have shown that our Old Testament existed in several forms at the time of Jesus. There could have been as many as four Hebrew-language versions: one that lies behind the Hebrew text of the Bible that Christians and Jews use today (the Masoretic Text); a second that lies behind the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which is called the Septuagint, or LXX (and is the Old Testament of the Orthodox churches today); a third distinctive Hebrew version of the Pentateuch (the first five books of our Old Testament) used by the Samaritans; and a fourth version scholars did not know existed until the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls 50 years ago (Directions: What Bible Version Did Jesus Read? Christianity Today, April 26, 1999).​

Old Testament Scripture needs to be interpreted in context, in the light of the Israelites' culture, but the historical-grammatical-cultural interpretation of the OT by Paul and Jesus has to be according to the same principles of hermeneutics we have to use today.

Oz

Thanks for commenting Oz,
To be honest , I have forgotten why I posted that day, I had a train of thought because of what one person had posted- but I was limited on time and did not explain the main reason properly - by the time I got home from work and read back, the thoughts I had had gone - so my post, in many respects was out of context of what I was trying to say !!! Lol
Sometimes it comes across in posts that people think that the whole of the bible was known by Jesus's hearers, and the early Christians - the point I was raising that scripture would not have meant the whole complete bible that we know today. So if Jesus was endeavouring to teach something and he mentioned ' scripture ' his hearers would only relate to the Torah and writings that were known to them at the time. So, in order to understand what was being taught, we should , perhaps, only look to the writings that the hearers would have had. It's more about context of that time frame.
Not sure that explains it - but as I said , my train of thought vanished.
Butterfly

 

[bbyrd009]

unfortunately we have "lost" many of the writings that they had access to...or at least the RCC is not sharing, i guess

 

[soul man]

unfortunately we have "lost" many of the writings that they had access to...or at least the RCC is not sharing, i guess

That may be but Eph. Chapter 1 allows you to know everything thing you need to know for Christian living.

 

[Butterfly]

I came to faith reading Ephesians chapter one xx

Butterfly