"Their heart was HARDENED??"

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ScottA

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That's going too far, and really is what Lord Jesus meant when He said His Apostles hearts were hardened. He was referring to their having been given spiritual eyes to see, and ears to hear, but their heart was still trusting in men's traditions when they should have understood.

For example, with Jesus' miracle of the five loaves and two fishes, the punch line of His Message below is about the baskets that were left over...

Mark 8:14-21
14 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.

15
And He charged them, saying, "Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod."
16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.

The subject is Jesus using the idea of leaven in bread as a symbol for the false traditions of the Pharisees, and of king Herod's acts who married his own sister, which caused him to behead John the Baptist for, by which Herod's sister had recommended he do.

17 And when Jesus knew it, He saith unto them, "Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
19
When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up?" They say unto Him, "Twelve."
20
"And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up?" And they said, "Seven."
21 And He said unto them, "How is it that ye do not understand?"
KJV


OK, so Jesus referred to the idea of leaven in bread, so that means consider how leaven in bread makes it artificially rise with many tiny air pockets in it to look like you're getting more bread, but in reality you are not.

Five whole loaves of bread went out to the multitude, but 12 baskets of fragments came back. In other words, there was much MORE BREAD that came back in the twelve baskets, but in fragments, i.e., in pieces.

Those baskets of fragments represent men's doctrines acting like 'leaven' added to the original five loaves of bread.

The Matthew 16 version of the above gives a bit more info showing Christ's Apostles after thinking about what He said, caught on to His Message of warning...

Matt 16:11-12
11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12
Then understood they how that He bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
KJV

Lord Jesus was simply using the analogy of leaven in bread to represent what the Pharisees and Sadducees were doing with their false doctrines and commandments of men.
Why do you say "That's going too far", then take off and go far into your own explanation, not mentioning the Spirit which causes all to "rise?"

To do so, is the "leaven of the Pharisees" who also "took away the key of knowledge."

Luke 11:52
“Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
 

Davy

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Why do you say "That's going too far", then take off and go far into your own explanation, not mentioning the Spirit which causes all to "rise?"

Well, according to your statement above, you reveal that YOU JUST DON'T KNOW how Lord Jesus meant about the leaven idea He warned His Apostles about.

I'll not go around in circles with you until you figure it out based on what His Apostles showed they understood in the Matthew 16:12 verse.
 

ScottA

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Well, according to your statement above, you reveal that YOU JUST DON'T KNOW how Lord Jesus meant about the leaven idea He warned His Apostles about.

I'll not go around in circles with you until you figure it out based on what His Apostles showed they understood in the Matthew 16:12 verse.
Don't blame me--you didn't go in circles or even forward, but backwards!

You quoted and claimed Matthew 16:12 which identifies the leaven that Jesus spoke of as meaning "doctrine"--well what did you think--that the words were not spirit? Did you think or believe that their interactions were only worldly, religious doctrinal differences--that we only fight against flesh and blood?

No wonder you go bonkers when I bring up the Spirit!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
I believe He was speaking of you who allege to have gone to heaven. Yet you deny the plain text of Scripture for your "higher spiritual meaning".
 

Davy

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Don't blame me--you didn't go in circles or even forward, but backwards!

You quoted and claimed Matthew 16:12 which identifies the leaven that Jesus spoke of as meaning "doctrine"--well what did you think--that the words were not spirit? Did you think or believe that their interactions were only worldly, religious doctrinal differences--that we only fight against flesh and blood?

No wonder you go bonkers when I bring up the Spirit!

Quit making excuses, you didn't understand what Jesus meant by comparing the leaven to the doctrines of the Pharisees and Herod. You only used the Book of Mark version, and never mentioned the Matthew 16 version.