KingJ said:
I agree with your view afaithfulone4u!
Simple Christian common sense tells me that we can't be here for God's wrath in the form of the seventh seal (7 trumpets). God does not strike His own hand. His saints and the Holy Spirit will be gone before the tribulation. We will not be taken half way either!!! How can the anti-christ do as he pleases in the first half if we are still around???????
The anti-christ is a concoction of the devil. Unlike Hitler (human with free will and the ability / freedom by God to exercise it)) He will be possessed by a powerful demon. We can cast the demon back to hell, can't we?????? or into swine....surely?????
Of course we can!!! The anti-christ can do NOTHING if the saints are here! and God ALWAYS saves His people from His wrath!!!
Simple common sense on this matter is about staying in God's Word as written, and not using our own opinions to try and replace what's written.
The early Church fathers understood about a singular Antichrist to come at the end prior to Christ's return. The reason is they got that directy from The Scriptures. Some groups today instead have tried to change that understanding about a singular Antichrist for the end over time, and most likely those, if they live to see it, are not going to be prepared spiritually, but instead think that our Lord Jesus is just going to whisk them away so as to not experience that event. The early Church fathers did not have any pre-trib rapture ideas, that was a doctrine pushed by certain men in 1830's Great Britain, and never was a doctrine in any Church until that later time.
pompadour said:
King J. Your common sense statement is the trump card for the pre trib rapture in my opinion. it is the point I make when talking about pre trib. The Bible said that the Anti-Christ can't ( CAN NOT ) be revealed till the restrainer be removed. The Holy Spirit, IS the restrainer, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, Jesus said " I will never leave you nor forsake you " When the Holy Spirit is removed the believers will go also. I don't see how it could be any other way.
Pomp.
That idea is from men, it is not what the 2 Thess.2 Scripture is telling us.
These two verses are in context with each other...
II Th 2:6-7
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(KJV)
The object being withheld there is concerning that "mystery of iniquity" clause. It's not The Holy Spirit withholding, it's a certain angel we were told about back in Daniel 10...
Dan 10:20-21
20 Then said he, "Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth:
and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince."
(KJV)
The Daniel 10 chapter is a Heavenly view of events, not an earthly view. The titles of "prince of Persia"is being used for principalities in the heavenly order, not the literal flesh kings of history. The "prince of Persia" title there is put for Satan himself. The ones doing that withholding are the Archangels Michael and Gabriel.
This is why in Rev.12:7 and Dan.12:1 we're shown about the time when Michael will make a stand, and Satan and his angels will be cast out of the heavenly down to this earth, in person, in plain view.
Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(KJV)
Rev.12:11 is a direct reference to Christ's elect overcoming that "dragon" by His Blood shed upon the cross, so this is definitely an event to occur for the end times.
The devil and his angels are coming, not as ghosts, they're coming to our earthly realm and will be seen. That's why the final Antichrist figure will be Satan himself here on earth, in plain sight, trying to trick us into believing he is God (the very subject warning given by Paul in 2 Thess.2).
To get folks on the pre-trib rapture away from understanding that, men's doctrines have created all kinds of WWIII scenarios to make brethren afraid of being here for that, and more easily latch onto their pre-trib rapture theories.