There are those who do not believe in a Rapture(Caught up) for the Elect

[forrestcupp]

I think the Elect ( MAY ) be the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel that are sealed by God.
Pomp.

That's kind of how I've looked at that, too. It's the same for when Jesus said the time would be shortened for the elect. Christians hopefully will have already been raptured (or caught away, if you must).

 

[pompadour]

Jesus said that the time would be shortened for the elects sake. I have pondered that also. The end times are allotted 7 yrs. Shortened to what?
I may have missed it, but I don't think Jesus said what the time would be shortened to. and the only reference to a short time, for the end time that I have read about is the 5 months and the season of the locust ( also 5 months, May to September. ) Talked about in Rev 9.
Read Rev 9 and let me know what you think.
Pomp.

 

[forrestcupp]

Jesus said that the time would be shortened for the elects sake. I have pondered that also. The end times are allotted 7 yrs. Shortened to what?
I may have missed it, but I don't think Jesus said what the time would be shortened to. and the only reference to a short time, for the end time that I have read about is the 5 months and the season of the locust ( also 5 months, May to September. ) Talked about in Rev 9.
Read Rev 9 and let me know what you think.
Pomp.

That's a good thought, but I don't think it's the same thing because the sealed elect aren't touched during that time. I always thought that when Jesus said that, He was just saying that God is keeping it to no more than 7 years (or the 3.5 year Great Tribulation) because if it was any longer than that, it would be too much even for the elect. I think that's in line with

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

But if there is a pre or mid trib rapture, what Jesus said there definitely takes place after that.

 

[pompadour]

You may be right. But the fact that Jesus made the statement, makes me think he meant it. Jesus knew the Daniel Prophesy of 7 yrs.

and could have just quoted it. I think he was changing it. At least the last 3 1/2 yrs. It will be so bad that there may be no flesh left
alive.... There is what, about 6 Billion people on the planet? and to take that down to - 0 - or a few hundred or Thousand in 3 1/2 yrs

WOW !

We will have to wait and see.
Pomp.

 

[forrestcupp]

You may be right. But the fact that Jesus made the statement, makes me think he meant it. Jesus knew the Daniel Prophesy of 7 yrs.

and could have just quoted it. I think he was changing it. At least the last 3 1/2 yrs. It will be so bad that there may be no flesh left
alive.... There is what, about 6 Billion people on the planet? and to take that down to - 0 - or a few hundred or Thousand in 3 1/2 yrs

WOW !

We will have to wait and see.
Pomp.

Whatever He said, He definitely meant, even if we don't fully understand it. The Greek word means "cut off". It's possible He could have meant that if it was left open ended, no one would survive, so for the sake of the elect, God is going to cut it off before it gets to that point, the 7 years. But this is a hard scripture because a lot of scholars believe it's talking about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I tend to think it's talking about the end time tribulation because of what He said in verse 21.

Mat 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

Obviously, there are plenty of other prophecies that talk about tribulation at the end of the age, and I have a hard time believing that what happened in 70 AD is greater than what will happen then.

But you're right; we will have to wait and see.

 

[pompadour]

I don't buy the 70 A.D. either. I think WW 2 was more destructive, I think more Jews died then . Can hardly wait for WW 3...........
Pomp.

 

[veteran]

I agree with your view afaithfulone4u!

Simple Christian common sense tells me that we can't be here for God's wrath in the form of the seventh seal (7 trumpets). God does not strike His own hand. His saints and the Holy Spirit will be gone before the tribulation. We will not be taken half way either!!! How can the anti-christ do as he pleases in the first half if we are still around???????

The anti-christ is a concoction of the devil. Unlike Hitler (human with free will and the ability / freedom by God to exercise it)) He will be possessed by a powerful demon. We can cast the demon back to hell, can't we?????? or into swine....surely?????

Of course we can!!! The anti-christ can do NOTHING if the saints are here! and God ALWAYS saves His people from His wrath!!!

Simple common sense on this matter is about staying in God's Word as written, and not using our own opinions to try and replace what's written.

The early Church fathers understood about a singular Antichrist to come at the end prior to Christ's return. The reason is they got that directy from The Scriptures. Some groups today instead have tried to change that understanding about a singular Antichrist for the end over time, and most likely those, if they live to see it, are not going to be prepared spiritually, but instead think that our Lord Jesus is just going to whisk them away so as to not experience that event. The early Church fathers did not have any pre-trib rapture ideas, that was a doctrine pushed by certain men in 1830's Great Britain, and never was a doctrine in any Church until that later time.

King J. Your common sense statement is the trump card for the pre trib rapture in my opinion. it is the point I make when talking about pre trib. The Bible said that the Anti-Christ can't ( CAN NOT ) be revealed till the restrainer be removed. The Holy Spirit, IS the restrainer, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, Jesus said " I will never leave you nor forsake you " When the Holy Spirit is removed the believers will go also. I don't see how it could be any other way.
Pomp.

That idea is from men, it is not what the 2 Thess.2 Scripture is telling us.

These two verses are in context with each other...

II Th 2:6-7
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(KJV)

The object being withheld there is concerning that "mystery of iniquity" clause. It's not The Holy Spirit withholding, it's a certain angel we were told about back in Daniel 10...


Dan 10:20-21
20 Then said he, "Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince."
(KJV)

The Daniel 10 chapter is a Heavenly view of events, not an earthly view. The titles of "prince of Persia"is being used for principalities in the heavenly order, not the literal flesh kings of history. The "prince of Persia" title there is put for Satan himself. The ones doing that withholding are the Archangels Michael and Gabriel.

This is why in Rev.12:7 and Dan.12:1 we're shown about the time when Michael will make a stand, and Satan and his angels will be cast out of the heavenly down to this earth, in person, in plain view.


Rev 12:7-12
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
(KJV)

Rev.12:11 is a direct reference to Christ's elect overcoming that "dragon" by His Blood shed upon the cross, so this is definitely an event to occur for the end times.

The devil and his angels are coming, not as ghosts, they're coming to our earthly realm and will be seen. That's why the final Antichrist figure will be Satan himself here on earth, in plain sight, trying to trick us into believing he is God (the very subject warning given by Paul in 2 Thess.2).

To get folks on the pre-trib rapture away from understanding that, men's doctrines have created all kinds of WWIII scenarios to make brethren afraid of being here for that, and more easily latch onto their pre-trib rapture theories.

 

[pompadour]

I have had this debate before. It will not be resolved until the day after half of the Christians disappear.

The rapture thing is all made up by man... lets look at some Bible history.

God destroyed the world with a flood, killed every one because God was angry with the people... except for Noah and his family...
Noah did what God told him to do.

Passover.. God told the death Angel to kill the first born of every family in Egypt Because God was angry with the people... Except the ones that did what God told them to do, to put the blood of a lamb on the door post of the house, so the Death Angel would Passover.

The parting of the Red Sea... I think every one knows the story. The people walked across on dry ground, the Army fallowed and God killed them all. But not the Hebrew children... I'm starting to see a pattern here....

The parable of the ten virgins... Five were taken and five were left behind. five let their lights go out. but they knew Jesus, are they the ones spoken of in Rev 12:11 ? that would be my guess... There are several other similar story's in the Bible.

God looks after his children.

Pomp.

 

[veteran]

I have had this debate before. It will not be resolved until the day after half of the Christians disappear.

The rapture thing is all made up by man... lets look at some Bible history.

God destroyed the world with a flood, killed every one because God was angry with the people... except for Noah and his family...
Noah did what God told him to do.

Noah was not raptured.

Passover.. God told the death Angel to kill the first born of every family in Egypt Because God was angry with the people... Except the ones that did what God told them to do, to put the blood of a lamb on the door post of the house, so the Death Angel would Passover.

The children of Israel in Egypt were not raptured. They were isolated by God's protection per His Passover. Christ Jesus is our Passover Lamb now.

The parting of the Red Sea... I think every one knows the story. The people walked across on dry ground, the Army fallowed and God killed them all. But not the Hebrew children... I'm starting to see a pattern here....

The children of Israel were still not raptured to be under God's protection. In all the examples you give above, God's people remain, while the wicked are destroyed.

The parable of the ten virgins... Five were taken and five were left behind. five let their lights go out. but they knew Jesus, are they the ones spoken of in Rev 12:11 ? that would be my guess... There are several other similar story's in the Bible.

Nowhere in the Matt.25 Scripture about the ten virgins does it ever say five were 'taken' and five were 'left behind'. The five wise virgins went into the wedding feast to be with Christ. For the rest, Christ shut the door on them. That is pointing to the future event of Revelation 22:14-15, the difference with those allowed into the holy city with Christ vs. those outside the gates in the outer darkness.

The 'taken' and 'left behind' ideas of the pre-trib rapturists is a man-made fantasy, not written in God's Word.

 

[forrestcupp]

Mat 24:40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
Mat 24:41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Mat 24:42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

If there is no rapture before the end of the tribulation, then it will be possible to figure out exactly when Jesus is coming.

 

[stefen]

Jesus Christ's Secret coming will happen at any time. There will be no change in that schedule, as Jesus himself said that. And other apostles also insisted it.

So, It may happen at any time, even in next second or after 100 years. Only Father knows it. We should be well prepared like today is the last day.

 

[John_8:32]

My wife had one of them there raptures, but the doctor fixed it with goretex and said it won't never happen again. So there is no rapture.

 

[forrestcupp]

My wife had one of them there raptures, but the doctor fixed it with goretex and said it won't never happen again. So there is no rapture.

Ha, ha, ha. Great way to lighten the mood.

 

[veteran]

I see that in Matt.24 is going to have to be properly covered too to prevent the gullible from being sucked in by men's false pre-trib rapture theories being applied to it...


Matt 24:37-51
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

WHO are the ones being 'taken' in the above analogy from our Lord Jesus? Those outside... the ark in Noah's day! So right off our Lord Jesus is using the 'taken' idea in the NEGATIVE sense, and it's about being deceived. Those taken then didn't believe a flood was coming, so they did not prepare, did not stay on watch like Noah and his family did who were preserved through... the flood (not removed). With this analogy, that flood represents the tribulation period for the end of this world.


40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

That's usually where the false pre-trib rapture theorists stop and push a Pre-Trib Secret Rapture to Heaven prior to the tribulation.


The following Scripture our Lord Jesus gives is in the same... sense of His answer to His disciples question in Luke 17:37 of where those 'taken' would be taken to. He first covers a positive part of what His servants are to be doing, and then He covers the negative sense of those who are taken...

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

If the goodman of the house knows in what watch (hour) the thief was to come trying to break in, he will not allow his house to be broken into. It's simple. The goodman, put for us, is to be watching, staying on guard. Our Lord Jesus is connecting this idea with what He said later about His coming "as a thief", as Apostles Paul and Peter also taught about the time of Christ's second coming (1 Thess.5; 2 Peter 3:10; Rev.16:15).


45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

So who is like one of His wise and faithful servants that He made ruler over His household that's here on earth (i.e., His Church)? What's that "to give them meat in due season" about? Do you recall Apostle Paul in Hebrews 5 saying how he expected brethren to mature off the milk of God's Word and get into the "strong meat" of The Word of God, becoming teachers? So for this great tribulation time our Lord warns us of here in Matt.24, what would be the "strong meat" for that time? Simple, understanding of the events leading up to His second coming, for our Lord Jesus was covering the 6 Seals of Rev.6 there in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

For those rulers of His household, i.e., those put over His Church for this time, THAT is what they are supposed to be doing during this period, giving the congregation "strong meat", and in "due season". The phrase "due season" (Greek karios) is about a specific time or period, or season. What's been the subject here by our Lord in Matt.24? The endtime events leading up to His return and our gathering!

Are the Pre-Trib Rapture supposed rulers of the household giving that meat in due season to their congregations??? NO!

Instead, they are preaching to their congregations that they don't have to be concerned with the endtime events, because they're gonna' be whisked away to Heaven before those 7 signs Jesus gave happens! The watching they are doing is looking for the time just before the tribulation starts which they will not discover because they haven't discerned that our Lord Jesus already told them here in Matt.24:29-31 that His coming and our gathering is AFTER the tribulation He mentioned. Thus the majority of them are not watching these 7 signs of the end He gave, expecting to be raptured before they start.


46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Christ tells us those rulers of His household that ARE still busy giving out the strong meat in due season when He appears will... be blessed! That's what He expects His faithful Church on earth to be found doing when He comes, STILL IN THE FIELD WORKING, and doing what?? Giving the "meat in due season"! Teaching and preaching His Word and especially the "strong meat" of events leading up to His return, remaining at work. NOT TAKEN.


48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, 'My lord delayeth his coming';
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

The hypocrites aren't watching the endtime events leading up to His return. Instead they are busy preaching to fly away, and the lie that no one knows the events of the endtimes. They've even misinterpreted the tribulation period to be a time of all-out nuclear WWIII when our Lord Jesus and His Apostles showed it will be a time of deceptive world peace! (Matt.24:6; 1 Thess.5).

And most of all, they are not prepared for the coming of that 'pseudo-Christ' false messiah that our Lord Jesus showed in Matt.24 will come first, to Jerusalem, playing God to trick the whole world into believing he is God (2 Thess.2:3-4; Rev.13:11-17). This is why Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.5 associated this SAME metaphor of being "drunken" for these like our Lord Jesus used. They are spiritually 'drunken' with their fly away rapture ideas of a great escape, when they shall not escape, but will be taken right into Satan's snare during the tribulation. They won't even recognize the tribulation is about falling to the strong delusion of the coming false messiah, instead will think he's our Lord Jesus having come.

 

[pompadour]

Veteren. There are a few points, but I will ask one question.

Matt.37,38,39. They were eating, drinking, marrying and given in marriage until the day Noe entered the ark. and knew not until the flood came and took them all away. so shall also be the coming of the Son of Man be. sounds like they were having a marry old time in Noe's day. .

Matt. 44. therefore be yea also ready: for in such an hour as you think not the Son of man cometh.

THEN.... Matt 24: v 21-22. For then shall be great tribulation, such was not sense the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor shall ever be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The four horse men, the bowl judgments, the trumpet judgments the woe judgments... Does that sound like Noe's day?

We also know that the Antichrist will make a Treaty with Israeli for 7 yrs, and at the very end of the 7 yrs Jesus will return. Written of in Daniel and Revelations. No surprise ,no thief in the night, 7 yrs after the treaty is signed Jesus returns THE END.

Question: Can you, in all honesty, tell us that Matt. 37,38, 39. and Matt. 24: v. 22-23 are speaking about the same event?
Pomp.

 

[veteran]

Veteren. There are a few points, but I will ask one question.

Matt.37,38,39. They were eating, drinking, marrying and given in marriage until the day Noe entered the ark. and knew not until the flood came and took them all away. so shall also be the coming of the Son of Man be. sounds like they were having a marry old time in Noe's day. .

Matt. 44. therefore be yea also ready: for in such an hour as you think not the Son of man cometh.

THEN.... Matt 24: v 21-22. For then shall be great tribulation, such was not sense the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor shall ever be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
The four horse men, the bowl judgments, the trumpet judgments the woe judgments... Does that sound like Noe's day?

If you'll note Rev.16:15, our Lord Jesus is still giving a warning there to His Church to be watching and waiting for His coming, so as to not be found naked in shame (spiritually). That's on the 6th Vial when He gave that, with the final 7th Vial just getting prepared to be poured out. Thus His Faithful Church is still... here on earth up to that 7th Vial, that's what He showed there. So the proper interpretation of this 'shortened' idea has nothing to do with some Pre-trib Rapture fly away theory of men. Instead it's about how Christ has shortened the actual time of tribulation upon His Faithful Church. We know this is the correct interpretation from what He also showed in the Matt.24:29-31 verses about His coming to gather His Church AFTER that tribulation.

In Revelation 9 He showed what the tribulation has been shortened to, and it's in direct association with the times in Noah's days, but I'm not going to show it to you, because you've chosen to heed men's doctrines instead, so it wouldn't help you at this point.

We also know that the Antichrist will make a Treaty with Israeli for 7 yrs, and at the very end of the 7 yrs Jesus will return. Written of in Daniel and Revelations. No surprise ,no thief in the night, 7 yrs after the treaty is signed Jesus returns THE END.

Christ said He shortened the time. The final "one week" from the Book of Daniel is still applicable as to the 'order'... of events. But the tribuation period itself has been shortened from that period of 7 years to....??? That's for you to find out per His Word, and not per men's doctrines.

Question: Can you, in all honesty, tell us that Matt. 37,38, 39. and Matt. 24: v. 22-23 are speaking about the same event?
Pomp.

Yes, I can. It's because you FIRST have to properly understand about the events of Genesis regarding the flood of Noah's days. You don't, because those you've chosen to listen to have taken those events out of their Biblical context in order to preach 'their' fly away secret rapture theories. How do I know that?

It's simple, because our Heavenly Father and Son use simple metaphors and symbols that those men's doctrines don't have a clue about, and often just pass over when reading His Word. There's a major reason why our Lord Jesus refers back to the flood of Noah in regard to endtime events. It's because He used various flood metaphors He first gave in the OT prophets, and also from the time of Noah's flood. Got some major related ones in the last sections of Rev.12, and He wasn't giving them about a literal flood for the end, but the idea of a flood used as a symbol for a type working for the tribulation time.

 

[pompadour]

Veteran: I'm more then a little disappointed in your insults and demeaning comments, as if you are the official self appointed expert on all things Biblical. Must be lonely up there.

I have read the book of Revelations about 30 times, I do know about the 5 months and the season of the locust ( May - Sept. ) also 5 months. in Rev 9.

Let me tell you something I know and you do not know, The 7 yrs Tribulation. you like to talk about so much will start in 1 to 5 yrs.
And no, I will not tell you how I know that, you will have to figure it out for your self.
You have a nice life now.

Pomp.

 

[veteran]

Veteran: I'm more then a little disappointed in your insults and demeaning comments, as if you are the official self appointed expert on all things Biblical. Must be lonely up there.

I have read the book of Revelations about 30 times, I do know about the 5 months and the season of the locust ( May - Sept. ) also 5 months. in Rev 9.

Let me tell you something I know and you do not know, The 7 yrs Tribulation. you like to talk about so much will start in 1 to 5 yrs.
And no, I will not tell you how I know that, you will have to figure it out for your self.
You have a nice life now.

Pomp.

Well, if you claim to understand that relation of Noah's flood with the endtime events elsewhere in God's Word, then why would you ask me whether those Matt.24:37-39 and Matt.24:22-23 verses are in association with that concept?

The Matt.24:21-26 verses are together... in timing context. Shouldn't you have already know that?

And the Matt.24:36-51 verses are in the same timing context, which you should have know already too.

So how else was I to understand your questioning other than an attempted trial towards me?

Your wrong usage of the terms 'taken' and 'left behind' applied to the ten virgins parable led me to believe you support the pre-trib rapture theory. If I was wrong with that assumption, then I apologize. That is the platform I thought you were supporting here with your questions.

 

[sniper762]

so your saying that i will not be present during jesus' 1000 year reign, when satan will have NO INFLUENCE on mankind.

i hope i dont miss that

 

[veteran]

so your saying that i will not be present during jesus' 1000 year reign, when satan will have NO INFLUENCE on mankind.

i hope i dont miss that

I don't see why you wouldn't be present for that, IF you're a believer on The Saviour Jesus Christ of His death and resurrection.

The wicked are still going to be there too. We are not told who really are the ones that are destroyed on the day of Christ's coming that will not go through His Milennium reign, like the 7,000 of Rev.11. I have a supposition on who those 7,000 represent only, but I won't speak about it in public.